The power of prayer

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atheistgirl

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I don’t pray. Obviously. But something is not settling right with me, and it’s this:

I’ve read some reports of experiments which demonstrate that people who knew they were being prayed for, after surgery, developed more complications and took longer to heal, than those who were not prayed for. This is used quite often by atheists to demonstrate that prayer is useless and pointless and actually can be counter productive.

BUT I think it’s fair to say if we, as humans, know a big bunch of people is rooting for us, (not praying for us as such) we feel much better and we do much better. We draw strength from knowing others have our backs and are wishing us well and hoping for the best for us.

We draw great power and drive from this communal and emotional support.

So how can knowing someone is praying for you not have the same effect? I don’t understand that bit.

I welcome your thoughts on this as to me, I dont think it makes sense.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Could you give a link to the study? It might help people to make sense of it if we saw the link. It seems to me I have also read the opposite, so it might also just be one small study that was never replicated. If so, the results were coincidental.

Often we see cause and effect where there is none.
 
Incomplete said:
Could you give a link to the study? .
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Sorry, I should have included the link to the American Heart Journal
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
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If I knew tons of people were ‘rooting’ for me, in no matter what form, I know I would feel better, more confident, more determined … so I don’t understand this.

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
Sorry, I should have included the link to the American Heart Journal

If I knew tons of people were ‘rooting’ for me, in no matter what form, I know I would feel better, more confident, more determined … so I don’t understand this.

Sarah x 🙂
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Obviously prayer doesn’t hurt, so the answer could be a number of other things.

First, this abstract doesn’t give a lot of details. It did not, however, say it is a double-blind study - unless I missed that. That could make some difference in the people who are recording complications. It doesn’t even define “complications”, so we don’t really know what they are talking about.

It also did not say anything about the patients. Some who knew they were receiving prayer may not have been happy about it. I know you would feel better, but some are so angry with anything to do with God that they would not be. People like this might report “complications”, if complications include things like anxiety or other things harder to measure.

We don’t know what hospitals were involved or how patients were randomly assigned, or anything about the doctors. By sheer chance, there may have been more in the prayed-for group in a hospital that is just not as good as the others, for example.

We don’t know how bad their conditions were. Again, by chance, there could be more in the prayed-for-and-knew-it group who were in worse shape than in the other groups.

It would only really have meaning if it was replicated several times with well-controlled studies. A quick look at studies that have been done shows that results are all over the map. Some studies show no effect of intercessory prayer, some show positive effect, some show negative effects.

My guess is that if we had access to the entire study, the summary would give a few thoughts on why it turned out the way it did.

As a Christian, the hope with prayer, even intercessory prayer, is that it brings us closer to God and helps to mold us to God’s will. I know there are a lot of Christians who believe that if you just pray enough and have enough faith, God will say yes to your prayers. That is not Catholic teaching. Prayer is so much more than that. God is so much more than that.

Of course, there are other kinds of healing. Some people receiving intercessory prayer receive things such as peace. Sometimes when people undergo illness, even complications of illness, it can bring them or their loves ones or others (such as someone they meet on hospital staff) closer to God. Those things are more important than physical healing.

Even if all studies showed no impact, it would not mean there is no God. (Nor would the opposite prove that God exists.) But to answer your question, I would view it as just one of those things, because the studies in general are all over the map.
 
Incomplete said:
I would view it as just one of those things, because the studies in general are all over the map.
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Yeah that’s what I thought. I really bugs me when atheists jump all over stuff like this as though it were some kind of ‘evidence’. But that isnt really my issue here. I just can’t believe it can be shown that a group of people all wishing you well can in any way then somehow actually make your condition worse. It makes no sense to me. We all KNOW we feel better when we know people are thinking of us, wishing us well, rooting for us, whatever you want to call it.

Your post made some intersting points. Thanks.

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
I really bugs me when atheists jump all over stuff like this as though it were some kind of ‘evidence’.

Your post made some intersting points. Thanks.

Sarah x 🙂
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I’m glad if it helped.

But I really like the way you think, as far as not liking atheists jumping all over non-existent “evidence”. I would say the same for Christians. When Christians do that, it makes the rest of us look like Christianity is for those who don’t think.
 
Lesson #1 from Statistics 101: Don’t Trust Statistics.

What I trust more are personal testimonies. Especially if you know a nurse or a hospice worker or some such thing, they may have some anecdotes about how prayer and faith can prolong the life of the sick and dying and even at times heal them of serious illness.
 
lol, yet another feeble atheist attempt to discredit religion. first of all, just because there is a correlation, doesnt mean theres a causality. does the study mention the age of the patients? because it could also just be the fact that many people who are religious tend to be older, hence the reason that developed “complications”. there are many other factors that the study probably overlooked. another reason why studies like these are generally useless in proving/ disproving God, is because their premise is flawed. religion is not a tool, therefore you cant treat God like a vending machine, “insert X amount of prayers… get your request” it doesnt work like that. if you want God to listen to your request, you have to change yourself and develop a closer relationship with him.
 
atheistgirl said:
I don’t pray. Obviously. But something is not settling right with me, and it’s this:

I’ve read some reports of experiments which demonstrate that people who knew they were being prayed for, after surgery, developed more complications and took longer to heal, than those who were not prayed for. This is used quite often by atheists to demonstrate that prayer is useless and pointless and actually can be counter productive.

BUT I think it’s fair to say if we, as humans, know a big bunch of people is rooting for us, (not praying for us as such) we feel much better and we do much better. We draw strength from knowing others have our backs and are wishing us well and hoping for the best for us.

We draw great power and drive from this communal and emotional support.

So how can knowing someone is praying for you not have the same effect? I don’t understand that bit.

I welcome your thoughts on this as to me, I dont think it makes sense.

Sarah x 🙂
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Sarah, what a lovely name…wishes are prayers…when we pray to Our Father GOD, we are asking for His decisions regarding our wishes, our desires, our blessings, even for our self-realization of Him and ourselves…when you wish, you are sending out Human and Material Nature Energies…OF WILL.

When we will with all sincerety, emotion of goodness, for all it entails, surrender for His Mercy and Grace…we Love GOD, with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our souls…

When you wish someone, any goodwill, peace, happiness…in a communal manner…you are increacing love/goodness as GOD’s Energy (Ether or Effulgence…Air too, is good analogy too, (for all you twisting)…there is a Science of Material Nature!

So your wishes are Prayers unto Ether and Air = Is what the Science of GOD says are a part of His Immortal/Eternal Energy Natures.

K, on another note, when my father had his colon re-section almost 3 years ago, we knew, especially him, that his chances for survival were less than 50%. He was also a diabetic with a slow heartbeat genetic condition, I had to get him cleared by a Cardiogist before surgery…when he was wheeled into his room, after the surgery, his face was dark blue, lips almost black…eyes puffed closed…I knew, in my heart, he was dying and his chances were going to be especially bad for recovery (6 mos), maybe infection too, because of diabetes…he was cold to my touch…My Aunt fretted and moaned beside me.

Quickly, she and I wrapped our hands around him and prayed to GOD…deeply, painfully emotional because, in our selfishness, we were not ready to let him go yet…we warmed him, I kept my hands on his crown for 2 hrs. She stayed at his feet.

Gradually, he not only warmed up…his face and cheeks went pink, the swelling and blackness on his eyes and lips were gone…he awoke to push his blanks off!

Imagine our JOY!

Needless to say, he surprised his doctor and the interns who came looky looing, for him the next morning! He met them in the hallway, pulling his IV bottle pole!

My old man was special and worthy…he never asked for morphine and we could not approve it for him. Surely, he was in pain?

Long story, shorter, he survived until June 2011, lived fully till the end, even to driving his big white truck…Prayers are Wishes too! Peace:juggle:
 
I have to say that I’ve heard of reports of intercessory prayer recipients doing better than those who knew they weren’t being prayed for (although I can’t cite any - I’m just going by my memory here).

It seems to me that prayer and prayer-related healing come in two forms.

Obviously there’s the miraculous aspect: the physical healing of the ailments, things that are spontaneous and unexplainable, and of course grades of the same - i.e. improvements rather than outright healing.

Then there’s the spiritual aspect. The fact that a patient knows that he/she is being rooted for by a number of people. For many types of illness, healing is affected by the patient’s sense of wellbeing and happiness. A stressed patient heals slower.

Remember that we don’t have to assume that prayer is a purely intangible thing. It isn’t just words wafting into the sky to be heard by an unseen but hoped-to-be intercessory divinity. Prayer, in Catholic eyes at least and probably other Christian denominations that I can’t speak for, can also be active. Active prayer taking the form of neighbours assisting an unwell person by being especially nice and helping clean house or collect groceries or give rides to doctor’s appointments, etc. Obviously that doesn’t have to be expressed in a particular religious fashion, but often people will deliberately put themselves out as a result of their beliefs, rather than despite them. All of these things make a difference and can be thought of as the results of prayer.

And for good measure, let me give you an account of my own…

A few years ago I suffered an excruciatingly painful illness for a couple of week and a good friend of mine who cares for me a great deal - we’re as close as brothers without the fights! - had looked after me while I was incapacitated. Later on that year, after I had fully recovered, we both entered into the Church Christmas raffle. On the day of the draw, I sat and listened as all the names came out of the hat, one by one, until the last prize was about to be drawn. At that point I silently asked God for the last ticket to be drawn to have my friend’s name on it, because he’d done so much for me, that I was so thankful and that I wished for a little good fortune for him (I was unemployed at the time, so wasn’t able to be outlandishly generous in presents for him). Imagine my surprise and delight that instantly my prayer was answered. His name was the last drawn, immediately after I’d asked for it. Nobody will ever persuade me now that prayer doesn’t work. 🙂
 
One day in the hospital after suffering a stroke and developing a complication, my father was in severe pain. I went out to the nurse’s station to ask for pain medication for my dad, and was told that the nurses were too busy and that there was no nurse able to tend to my father at that time.

So I went back into my father’s hospital room and silently prayed three Hail Marys.

Immediately after, my dad’s face visibly relaxed. He breathed a sigh of relief, and said, “It’s all right, the nurse has come.”

How much you want to bet that the “nurse,” invisible to the rest of us, was Mary?

In any case, my dad’s pain was lessened, and he was comforted.
The power of prayer.
🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
If I knew tons of people were ‘rooting’ for me, in no matter what form, I know I would feel better, more confident, more determined … so I don’t understand this.

Sarah x 🙂
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Maybe if you were so ill then all the good vibes people were sending you would not be enough for you to feel better.

Prayer is not the same as ‘sending good vibes’ and ‘thinking of someone’ while they are in hospital. Prayer is a relationship with God. So God can heal a person (like those cases where doctors admit they don’t understand how the person recovered) but He is not obliged to do so either, regardless of the number of prayers said.

The problem with these studies is that they assume that it is all in the person’s head. In this way we can study the relationship between the body and our brain and this is relevant work. But that is not the same as prayer.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Maybe if you were so ill then all the good vibes people were sending you would not be enough for you to feel better.

Prayer is not the same as ‘sending good vibes’ and ‘thinking of someone’ while they are in hospital. Prayer is a relationship with God. So God can heal a person (like those cases where doctors admit they don’t understand how the person recovered) but He is not obliged to do so either, regardless of the number of prayers said.

The problem with these studies is that they assume that it is all in the person’s head. In this way we can study the relationship between the body and our brain and this is relevant work. But that is not the same as prayer.
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They put patients in 3 groups.

Group 1 were told they might be prayed for and were.

Group 2 were told they might be prayed for and weren’t.

Group 3 were told they’d receive prayer and did

Group 1 had 52% with complications
Group 2 had 51% with complications
Group 3 had 59% with complications

96% said they were receiving prayer from family friends and others. Its also POSSIBLE that nurses, chaplains etc. mightve prayed.

If God answers prayer, shouldnt there be at least SOME difference in the outcome ?
 
They prayed at a distance and found nothing that showed prayer worked
But when a study was done on Proximal Intercessory Prayer (PIP)
by laying on of hands and praying near the recipient, it showed results.
Couldnt that just be a power of suggestion?
 
Faith1960 said:
They put patients in 3 groups.

Group 1 were told they might be prayed for and were.

Group 2 were told they might be prayed for and weren’t.

Group 3 were told they’d receive prayer and did

Group 1 had 52% with complications
Group 2 had 51% with complications
Group 3 had 59% with complications

96% said they were receiving prayer from family friends and others. Its also POSSIBLE that nurses, chaplains etc. mightve prayed.

If God answers prayer, shouldnt there be at least SOME difference in the outcome ?
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One study tells us nothing. I know there are a ton of studies out there…one site alone said there are about 1200 studies that they knew of. My guess is some show a difference, some don’t. A link to the study you quoted from would help a bit to evaluate it’s strengths and weaknesses, but either way, you’ll find studies on both sides of the issue. Each one has to be evaluated on its own merits.
 
Incomplete said:
One study tells us nothing. I know there are a ton of studies out there…one site alone said there are about 1200 studies that they knew of. My guess is some show a difference, some don’t. A link to the study you quoted from would help a bit to evaluate it’s strengths and weaknesses, but either way, you’ll find studies on both sides of the issue. Each one has to be evaluated on its own merits.
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I may have a link to it under “Prayer Studies” in this same forum. If not i try to find one and link it later
 
Incomplete said:
One study tells us nothing. I know there are a ton of studies out there…one site alone said there are about 1200 studies that they knew of. My guess is some show a difference, some don’t. A link to the study you quoted from would help a bit to evaluate it’s strengths and weaknesses, but either way, you’ll find studies on both sides of the issue. Each one has to be evaluated on its own merits.
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I also want to say that this was the most comprehensive study on prayer, called the “gold standard” in a couple articles. And yes, some prayer studies showed prayer as having some benefit, but not much and among the ones I read about, they were flawed, while STEP is supposed to be the best.
 
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