The Practical Expenses of Too Many EMsHC

[ElToro]

I was thinking about the practical expenses of having too many EMsHC in my parish.

Purificators: (6 Masses/Sunday)(3 extra purificators/Mass) + (2 Masses/weekday)(1 extra purificators/Mass)(6 Masses/M-Sat)] = 30 extra purificators to launder and maintain each week.

Chalices/ciboria: 3 extra chalices and ciboria to pay for and maintain. All 6 get washed after every Sunday Mass. 2 of them get washed after every weekday Mass.

Scheduling enough people to not only use but wash and maintain the above.

 

[Cristiano]

I think that you are just trying to show your strong bias against the implementation of EMHC and that is it.

There is no cost associated with having "too many’ EMHC. There is a cost associated with the choice of multiple distribution. The cost is independent from having multiple priests, multiple deacons, or multiple EMHC. The cost increase is with “multiple” and not with “ministers”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

LOL, I agree. Is 30 extra purificators worth an extra load of laundry? Just doing a straight up multiplication is not the way to find the actual cost. Cost analysis is a more complicated process. For example, how much of a difference is it really if your putting 10 purificators into the washing machine vs. putting in 30?

Now if the EMHCs receive a stipend each, that is a different thing. But its still just a portion of the entire cost analysis process.

 

[ElToro]

I think that you are just trying to show your strong bias against the implementation of EMHC and that is it.

Nope. I recognize my parish needs a few EMsHC at each Mass. It certainly DOES NOT need the GANG of them that we have.

There is no cost associated with having "too many’ EMHC. There is a cost associated with the choice of multiple distribution. The cost is independent from having multiple priests, multiple deacons, or multiple EMHC. The cost increase is with “multiple” and not with “ministers”.

There is a HUGE cost. I was just enumerating some of the more practical ones. WE simply have too many people distributing Holy Communion – clergy or lay.

 

[ElToro]

LOL, I agree. Is 30 extra purificators worth an extra load of laundry? Just doing a straight up multiplication is not the way to find the actual cost. Cost analysis is a more complicated process. For example, how much of a difference is it really if your putting 10 purificators into the washing machine vs. putting in 30?

Now if the EMHCs receive a stipend each, that is a different thing. But its still just a portion of the entire cost analysis process.

“LOL.” I am talking about practical expenses. You’re naive if you think it’s simply a matter of “an extra load of laundry.” In reality it means having a lot more purificators on hand to begin with (initial purchase plus replacements), soaking a great many more to remove stains, washing more (you got that part) and ironing a great many more. I wonder how long it takes to iron 30 purificators? An extra hour? It would probably take me two.

We can talk about “cost analysis” anytime you want – and we’ll see who has a better grasp of its intricacies…

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

“LOL.” I am talking about practical expenses. You’re naive if you think it’s simply a matter of “an extra load of laundry.” In reality it means having a lot more purificators on hand to begin with (initial purchase plus replacements), soaking a great many more to remove stains, washing more (you got that part) and ironing a great many more. I wonder how long it takes to iron 30 purificators? An extra hour? It would probably take me two.

We can talk about “cost analysis” anytime you want – and we’ll see who has a better grasp of its intricacies…

You might want to factor into your cost model the fact that in many, if not most, parishes, altar linens are washed and ironed by a team of volunteer ladies who do them at home at no cost to the parish. Is there a time-and-motion analyst in you yearning to be set free?

 

[ElToro]

You might want to factor into your cost model the fact that in many, if not most, parishes, altar linens are washed and ironed by a team of volunteer ladies who do them at home at no cost to the parish. Is there a time-and-motion analyst in you yearning to be set free?

It’s still a cost. An opportunity cost in my parish because it keeps those that do the laundry from doing other things. I don’t think I would call it a “team” though.

I have no desire to do MTM – I did a great deal of that when I put myself through undergrad school.

Next?

 

[Cat]

Isn’t the priest, not the layperson, the one who has the privilege of deciding whether or not to use EMsHC and how many of them are needed, and whether the church budget will allow for use of EMsHC?

Is it appropriate for us as laypeople to question our priests’ decisions about this? What difference does it make what we think?

It just seems to me that questioning the priest on little things can lead to questioning the priest on bigger things, and eventually, doubting his efficacy in anything. Could this undercurrent of criticism from the laity be one reason why so many people don’t think any better of priests than they do of snake-oil peddlers?

 

[ElToro]

Isn’t the priest, not the layperson, the one who has the privilege of deciding whether or not to use EMsHC and how many of them are needed, and whether the church budget will allow for use of EMsHC?

Is it appropriate for us as laypeople to question our priests’ decisions about this? What difference does it make what we think?

It just seems to me that questioning the priest on little things can lead to questioning the priest on bigger things, and eventually, doubting his efficacy in anything. Could this undercurrent of criticism from the laity be one reason why so many people don’t think any better of priests than they do of snake-oil peddlers?

The overuse of EMsHC is not primarily a budget matter. We use too many at my parish. It’s been that way for a long time. IF my pastor reduced the number there would be a HUGE backlash so he doesn’t. At the same time we can’t find people to do the laundry. I was just making an observation.

I do agree with you though. Watching my pastor fail to deal with a great many obvious issues has lowered my opinion of him in terms of being a pastor (but not a priest) because his inaction has a negative impact on the Mass at my parish. I certainly would never compare him to a snake oil salesman but I do find myself saluting the uniform rather than the man from time to time even though I do pray for that not to be the case.

 

[EasterJoy]

The overuse of EMsHC is not primarily a budget matter. We use too many at my parish. It’s been that way for a long time. IF my pastor reduced the number there would be a HUGE backlash so he doesn’t. At the same time we can’t find people to do the laundry. I was just making an observation.

I do agree with you though. Watching my pastor fail to deal with a great many obvious issues has lowered my opinion of him in terms of being a pastor (but not a priest) because his inaction has a negative impact on the Mass at my parish. I certainly would never compare him to a snake oil salesman but I do find myself saluting the uniform rather than the man from time to time even though I do pray for that not to be the case.

So pretty much if he changes it, he’s going to get a backlash from them, and because he’s not changing it, he’s getting a backlash from you. Everyone wants to make policy, but when it is time to do the ironing or clean the bathrooms, the crowd evaporates. He cannot possibly win.

It reminds me of a great quote from a wonderful parish priest:
“Parish life would be really great, except for the parishioners.”

 

[ElToro]

So pretty much if he changes it, he’s going to get a backlash from them, and because he’s not changing it, he’s getting a backlash from you. Everyone wants to make policy, but when it is time to do the ironing or clean the bathrooms, the crowd evaporates. He cannot possibly win.

It reminds me of a great quote from a wonderful parish priest:
“Parish life would be really great, except for the parishioners.”

There is still right and wrong. He should do what is right, regardless of the backlash.

 

[paperwight66]

In our parish, the only cost that I can see is the altar-wine, if using EMHC means that Holy Communion is being offered under both kinds if it would not be offered without them.

Like many parishes, I suspect. we have a safe full of ciboria, chalices etc., which have come from parishes which have closed down, or have been left to us by priests now deceased, so those aren’t a cost.

The EMHCs aren’t paid so much as a petrol allowance, so I fail to see any cost there.

The purificators are washed and ironed at home by a team who seem to enjoy doing it , and wouldn’t dream of charging for their time or soap/electricity.

The cost of washing the chalices after Mass? You can’t be serious, it must be minute. A few inches of hot water and a squirt of detergent?

 

[ElToro]

In our parish, the only cost that I can see is the altar-wine, if using EMHC means that Holy Communion is being offered under both kinds if it would not be offered without them.

It could be offered with fewer though.

Like many parishes, I suspect. we have a safe full of ciboria, chalices etc., which have come from parishes which have closed down, or have been left to us by priests now deceased, so those aren’t a cost.

Not my parish.

The EMHCs aren’t paid so much as a petrol allowance, so I fail to see any cost there.

The cost is to the integrity of the liturgy.

The purificators are washed and ironed at home by a team who seem to enjoy doing it , and wouldn’t dream of charging for their time or soap/electricity.

Here the carp a great deal about doing it. The often talk about “changing to red purificators like other parishes use.” It’s tough to find people to do it – of course most parishes might not waste purificators like we do.

The cost of washing the chalices after Mass? You can’t be serious, it must be minute. A few inches of hot water and a squirt of detergent?

Only you seem to be trying to quantify that process.

 

[paperwight66]

ElToro:
3 extra chalices and ciboria to pay for and maintain. All 6 get washed after every Sunday Mass. 2 of them get washed after every weekday Mass. (El Toro, in OP)

What was that about only me quantifying the process? Surely your OP raised the question of washing the vessels?

 

[Cat]

Parking is another consideration. One reason why Masses are kept short is to allow for multiple Masses to be offered on Saturday evening/Sundays, and this means that cars must clear out of the parking lots and more cars pull in fill the spaces.

Finally, I have to think that we have to consider the physical abilities of the priest. Serving Holy Communion to several thousand people is kind of hard. Even the Pope has helpers, but many priests are the lone priest in their parish.

I just think that we need to respect Father’s decisions and stop undermining him. We don’t know the “whole story.” He does.

 

[centurionguard]

I was thinking about the practical expenses of having too many EMs in my parish.

Purificators: (6 Masses/Sunday)(3 extra purificators/Mass) + (2 Masses/weekday)(1 extra purificators/Mass)(6 Masses/M-Sat)] = 30 extra purificators to launder and maintain each week.

Chalices/ciboria: 3 extra chalices and ciboria to pay for and maintain. All 6 get washed after every Sunday Mass. 2 of them get washed after every weekday Mass.

Scheduling enough people to not only use but wash and maintain the above.

My parish uses eight EMHC on weekend Masses and 4 on Weekday Masses.
We have one woman in our parish who volunteers to wash all linens (Purificators and Corporals) towels, used exclusively for Mass service within the prescribed norms of the Church.

As far as Sacred Vessels are concerned (some) of the more expensive Chalices and Ciboria are used exclusively for Feast Days and Solemnities. This leaves the less expensive sacred vessels for weekday use.

In my former ten years as sacristan I’ve seen sacred vessels mishandled carelessly, chipped, dented, and scrubbed too hard inside the Chalice and Ciboria cup itself by some EMHC’s removing the soft gold or silver plating. Sacred Vessels are very delicate and need to be treated in the same manner. Reguilding or Restoration of old vessels is very expensive.

Just my opinion but Sacred Vessels should be cleaned by one designated person. Too many hands spoil the pot as it were running the risk of ruining Sacred Vessels.

Luckily we have the 4th degree Knights of Columbus who look after many of these expenses when it comes to Sacred Vessel repairs and almost every second year give new chalices and ciboria to parishes in the diocese in honor of past 4th degree K of C members who have passed away.

IMHO I don’t see that there’s a huge practical expense too using EMHCs.
Only very few out-lying rural area parishes that don’t bring in that much revenue distribute Holy Communion under one specie.

 

[Cristiano]

The overuse of EMsHC is not primarily a budget matter. We use too many at my parish. It’s been that way for a long time. …

Now you are showing your true colors. Why do you waste time and credibility starting threads about something that does not really concern you? You have a personal issue with the use of EMHCs and I am fine with that. Bringing unnecessary and distracting arguments it is only going to create more animosity instead of gaining consensus on how to deal with what many people perceive as an issue. Stick to what you consider the fundamental issue and ask for help on how to deal with it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

“LOL.” I am talking about practical expenses. You’re naive if you think it’s simply a matter of “an extra load of laundry.” In reality it means having a lot more purificators on hand to begin with (initial purchase plus replacements), soaking a great many more to remove stains, washing more (you got that part) and ironing a great many more. I wonder how long it takes to iron 30 purificators? An extra hour? It would probably take me two.

We can talk about “cost analysis” anytime you want – and we’ll see who has a better grasp of its intricacies…

Sure thing, can you assign values to the time spent, the actual cost of laundry, water use, electricity, amount of detergent, etc.

And if ironing 30 more purificators will take you 2 hours, you should get fired and they should get one that is more efficient.

Also don’t forget its not only about expenses but also opportunity to take in more income. Longer communion lines may mean parishioners may go to other more efficient parishes. Cutting costs does not mean you actually save money because cost-cutting may also mean your opportunity for revenue is diminished.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Parking is another consideration. One reason why Masses are kept short is to allow for multiple Masses to be offered on Saturday evening/Sundays, and this means that cars must clear out of the parking lots and more cars pull in fill the spaces.

Finally, I have to think that we have to consider the physical abilities of the priest. Serving Holy Communion to several thousand people is kind of hard. Even the Pope has helpers, but many priests are the lone priest in their parish.

I just think that we need to respect Father’s decisions and stop undermining him. We don’t know the “whole story.” He does.

This is the crux of the matter. As self-designated orthodox Catholics, we need to be more supportive of our priests and their decisions. It is one thing to charitably ask about limiting distribution of the Precious Blood, it is another to spend our time and energy calculating the weekly cost of washing a few more purificators.

If you ask and present a reasonable case (in charity and not right after a Mass) and he says No, then we need to accept his ruling and move on. No brooding, no contemplating letters to the bishop and to Rome. What your priest is doing is not an abuse. EMHCs are allowed and the bishop and the pastor get to decide how many they need, when. We don’t.

Bro. JR had an excellent post in a thread about priests learning Latin that was extremely insightful. We don’t know all the behind the scene stuff, and it is not our business to know. The fact that other laity appear to have an “inside track” should not mean that we throw away the need for humility and charity in all things.

 

[Evan]

It’s still a cost. An opportunity cost in my parish because it keeps those that do the laundry from doing other things. I don’t think I would call it a “team” though.

Next?

Now, If the ‘gang’ of EMHC cost 1 extra hour of ironing, consider that the mass ends 5 minutes earlier. So this 5 minutes times 500 parishoners at the mass comes to 40 hours of extra free time when they could be ‘doing other things’. It seems the 1 hour cost is far exceeded by the 40 hour return.

And I believe EMHC’s come in choirs:angel1: rather than gangs