The practice of screening incoming and outgoing mail?

[Juama]

It is known that many orders (especially new groups) have the practice of screening incoming and outgoing mail of subjects.

I know this may be defended by a tradition in religious life. Does anyone know how far this practice goes back?

Has anyone been in a group with this practice that can comment on it?

Is it a psycologically healthy practice? Should it be abandoned or kept? Are those who are against it just liberals?

Here is my opinion on the matter:

It seems to me it can be open to abuse and for this reason should generally be abandoned. More than obedience, it seems like a way to keep religious at an infantile state of dependence. Seems that if a mature person is educated in sound philosophy, theology, Canon Law, and has a good spiritual life through confidential spiritual direction they can be trusted and don’t need this “safeguard” of screening incoming and outgoing mail.

I mean if you have to keep tabs on incoming and outgoing mail of someone, that sounds like someone that shouldn’t be in religious life in the first place.

Things have come out recently about the Legionaries and how their founder led a double life. One wonders how much this practice may have contributed to keeping possible abuses in the group a secret from higher authorities.

 

[Kathgirl]

Maybe that’s what Fr. Groeschel meant when he asked his TV viewing audience to pray for the Legionaires (sp? ). This was about 2 weeks ago and I didn’t know what he meant…something like “They will get through this but it will be very difficult”…and the media were taking a liberal stance, of course and fueling the fire???

 

[Cruikshank_s]

Do you have documented verifiable instances within the past 10 or 20 years? What groups in particular are you accusing? This sounds like a violent shot in the dark. You’ve presented no facts, no names, no instances, no groups, nothing. Come back and present some solid facts, because without them I refuse to present my opinion, I don’t work with blind speculation.

Juama, I’ve seen your other posts, and read your essay. I really think your time would be better spent with some healing. If you’ve been hurt by some religious group within the Church, I am truly sorry. We are supposed to be a Church of compassion and healing leading those who follow to holiness. I am truly sorry for your poor experience, I really am. But please you aren’t helping anyone by starting accusation threads with no facts or verifiable documented cases. I’m a proud active and vocal member of the Catholic Church, I hear the “cult” card often enough from protestant friends, it kind of hurts to hear it so often from a brother.

 

[Juama]

Do you have documented verifiable instances within the past 10 or 20 years? What groups in particular are you accusing?
I really am. But please you aren’t helping anyone by starting accusation threads with no facts or verifiable documented cases. I’m a proud active and vocal member of the Catholic Church, I hear the “cult” card often enough from protestant friends, it kind of hurts to hear it so often from a brother.

You cannot mention specific groups. Mentioning specific groups gets you sued. At least on these forums it is not really allowed. It’s better to talk about principles.

It’s a catch-22 really. If you mention specific groups, people say those ex-members testimonies are not reliable because they are “enemies of the Church”. If you argue just in principle, people say “Well, you need to give specific group names.”

It may hurt to hear the word “cult” from a Catholic, what hurts more is that there ARE cults in the Church. Which groups those are, are for you to figure out based on the principles that I have argued are cultic…or for you to refute my criteria altogether.

Warning someone about this phenomena is definitely helping someone and it is helping the Church. Peter Vere’s article (which also does not mention specific groups) on “Separating the Wheat from The Tares” helped me and others greatly. Also the Regain Network’s work has also helped people greatly, even people who are members of other groups in the Church.

Too often people think that just because a group is approved this automatically makes them a healthy group.

Talking about this on this forum where people are going for advice on discerning a vocation is a great service to them. That way they can make an **informed decision about their vocation. **

People who fell into Catholic cults would have wished someone would have talked to them about the phenomena before they joined.

 

[Juama]

Maybe that’s what Fr. Groeschel meant when he asked his TV viewing audience to pray for the Legionaires (sp? ). This was about 2 weeks ago and I didn’t know what he meant…something like “They will get through this but it will be very difficult”…and the media were taking a liberal stance, of course and fueling the fire???

Why do you assume I am talking about the Legionaries?

 

[LilyM]

But if you fail (or feel unable) to name specific orders or groups, then your foundational premise (‘It is known that many orders (especially new groups) have the practice of screening incoming and outgoing mail of subjects.’) fails miserably. Clearly it is NOT known.

And if you don’t provide particulars to back up such a statement and people DON’T just accept it as a given, then you can’t hope logically to sustain your argument.

 

[Juama]

But if you fail (or feel unable) to name ***specific orders or groups, then your foundational premise (‘It is known that many orders (especially new groups) have the practice of screening incoming and outgoing mail of subjects.’) fails miserably. Clearly it is NOT known.

And if you don’t provide particulars to back up such a statement and people DON’T just accept it as a given, then you can’t hope logically to sustain your argument.***

Use google.

Jay Dunlap mentions the practice in this article
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea2.asp

Ex-members’ complaints

The web sites and pamphlets that denigrate the various new movements draw heavily from the negative comments of ex-members. For example, the web site of the so-called Opus Dei Awareness Network features ex-members’ complaints about such practices as opening of mail, corporal mortification, and burdensome financial commitment.

To someone unfamiliar with consecrated life in the Church, these.aspects of life in Opus Dei can raise concerns. But the opening of mail is a practice in communal religious life that dates back centuries; it is an expression of the freedom and openness of Christians in community with no secrets from one another.

And in this series of two videos, the Legionary priest admits they have the practice in the Legion. (You have it from the horse’s mouth so to speak)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i0VUu3p8GI

Here is another site about Covenant Communities that mentions the practice


http://covenantcommunities.blogspot.com/2007/01/covenant-communities-caritas.html

 

[Juama]

Another site that mentions the practice:

catholicconcerns.com/Convent.html

This is an anti-Catholic site, but it does mention the custom, so this is at least an indication that the practice does exist.

Our outgoing mail was read by our superiors, and so was our incoming mail. When we wrote letters, we never knew whether or not people would actually receive them. We never knew if mail had been sent to us but not given to us.

Yet another site

jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/22081/edition_id/446/format/html/displaystory.html

The superior would read and approve all outgoing and incoming mail, and only approved letters would be distributed — to teach of poverty of spirit and the banishment of pride.

 

[Cristiano]

You cannot mention specific groups. Mentioning specific groups gets you sued. At least on these forums it is not really allowed. It’s better to talk about principles.

It’s a catch-22 really. If you mention specific groups, people say those ex-members testimonies are not reliable because they are “enemies of the Church”. If you argue just in principle, people say “Well, you need to give specific group names.”

It may hurt to hear the word “cult” from a Catholic, what hurts more is that there ARE cults in the Church. Which groups those are, are for you to figure out based on the principles that I have argued are cultic…or for you to refute my criteria altogether.

Warning someone about this phenomena is definitely helping someone and it is helping the Church. Peter Vere’s article (which also does not mention specific groups) on “Separating the Wheat from The Tares” helped me and others greatly. Also the Regain Network’s work has also helped people greatly, even people who are members of other groups in the Church.

Too often people think that just because a group is approved this automatically makes them a healthy group.

Talking about this on this forum where people are going for advice on discerning a vocation is a great service to them. That way they can make an informed decision about their vocation.

People who fell into Catholic cults would have wished someone would have talked to them about the phenomena before they joined.

You are contradicting yourself or lying. You say that you want to talk about principles but then you make clear accusations.

If you talk about principles I can agree with you that some situations can be a result/indication of the existence of a cult; however I tell you that they not imply a two-way correlation and there are no cults in the Catholic Church.

If you want to make a clear accusation as you did then you have the burden to provide evidence of your statement. You cannot tell us to go and find the info and prove that there are cults.

 

[Cristiano]

Another site that mentions the practice:

catholicconcerns.com/Convent.html

This is an anti-Catholic site, but it does mention the custom, so this is at least an indication that the practice does exist.

Our outgoing mail was read by our superiors, and so was our incoming mail. When we wrote letters, we never knew whether or not people would actually receive them. We never knew if mail had been sent to us but not given to us.

Yet another site

jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/22081/edition_id/446/format/html/displaystory.html

The superior would read and approve all outgoing and incoming mail, and only approved letters would be distributed — to teach of poverty of spirit and the banishment of pride.

1- What kind of logic are you using? “It must be true because someone said so”
2- Rumors, unhappiness and hate cannot be considered evidence.

 

[Juama]

You are contradicting yourself or lying. You say that you want to talk about principles but then you make clear accusations.

If you talk about principles I can agree with you that some situations can be a result/indication of the existence of a cult; however I tell you that they not imply a two-way correlation and there are no cults in the Catholic Church.

If you want to make a clear accusation as you did then you have the burden to provide evidence of your statement. You cannot tell us to go and find the info and prove that there are cults.

Ok, but let’s not divert and talk about this, there is another thread on Catholic cults, let’s talk about the practice of opening mail.

Is it a good idea?

 

[Juama]

1- What kind of logic are you using? “It must be true because someone said so”
2- Rumors, unhappiness and hate cannot be considered evidence.

But Jay Dunlap in This Rock says it does exist, not only that but he defends it. The Legionary priest in the video link I posted admit that they do use the practice!. What more proof do you need?

 

[Cristiano]

Ok, but let’s not divert and talk about this, there is another thread on Catholic cults, let’s talk about the practice of opening mail.

Is it a good idea?

Yes, opening mail is a good idea! It works in my family.

When people join a religious order they are well aware of what is going on. The spend quite a bit of time in the order before becoming members and they have the opportunity to learn the process and the rules. If you do not like you leave it.

 

[LilyM]

Ok, but let’s not divert and talk about this, there is another thread on Catholic cults, let’s talk about the practice of opening mail.

Is it a good idea?

Just about any such practice can, depending on the circumstances, be either a healthy or an unhealthy thing. The mere fact that it is an extreme form of obedience doesn’t automatically make it bad. Our Lord himself required us to have the faith of a little child, and childlike obedience can form part of that.

For example, some people are unhealthily secretive, concealing vital aspects of their past or present from those who need to know - or have faults such as compulsive lying. Either of which is impossible for anyone living in a community. This could possibly be a very effective way to correct those.

In the end, it is for the members and leaders of such orders to themselves determine the matter, and for those who aren’t comfortable or happy with the practice to discern whether joining or continuing with the organisation is for them.

 

[SerraSemper]

In my opinion, this is an unhealthy practice which does continue in certain communities. Although in the old days there were certain safeguards in that the subject had the right to have his mail unopened to certain personages such as his spiritual director, a higher superior, and others, to continue the practice in these days is probably unwise.

 

[papalsupporter]

 

[papalsupporter]

Yes, opening mail is a good idea! It works in my family.

When people join a religious order they are well aware of what is going on. The spend quite a bit of time in the order before becoming members and they have the opportunity to learn the process and the rules. If you do not like you leave it.

umm… so what do you mean it works in your family? Do you open your wife or husbands mail?

Do you log into his or her email accounts and have their passwords and read all their emails before they can read them?

Just curious cause that is definitely not how it works in my family…

 

[LilyM]

The difference being that a member of a religious order is NOT a child, quite the opposite, and that they voluntarily choose to be a member of that order knowing that such is the practice, unlike with families where you don’t choose to be a member!

 

[papalsupporter]

The difference being that a member of a religious order is NOT a child, quite the opposite, and that they voluntarily choose to be a member of that order knowing that such is the practice, unlike with families where you don’t choose to be a member!

I think the question is not if someone chooses it or not, be they an adult or not.

The question seems to be, is it healthy to do it whether the person chooses freely to have it done or not.

I can freely choose to have someone beat me on a daily basis. That doesn’t make it a healthy thing.

I, for one, can see advantages of having mail opened but at the same time I see the need to allow people their privacy. Also, what if someone were in an order and had parents that were not in favor of their child joining the group. So the superiors decide to not allow that person to received or read the letters that come to them from their parents as they could cause the child to leave his vocation. Then the parents try to inform the child of a family member who is dying or deceased, but the child never gets the letter because the superiors are filtering it. Or what if some money fraud came out about that particular religious community (not the order as a whole) or a case of sexual abuse and a concerned family member tried to inform their loved one who is in the order about it but he or she never gets the letter or email because the superiors don’t want them to know that bad news, or that superior himself is the guilty one and is intercepting those letters.

I think a healthy allowing of communication with the outside without filters all the time is good and keeps things transparent showing that there is nothing to hide. The screening of letters should be done in a way to both protect the vocation and the order. But if the order decides to keep that custom then it is up to the person going into the order to decide if they will go along with that or not. All orders are free to practice whatever custom they choose (under canon law), as long as they explain it well to the people who are considering them and don’t try to hide what’s really going on.

As far as families, a husband and a wife have a right to have their mail UNOPENED, as they have chosen to get married. The children are a different story and even then there should be a good reason for it and their age should be considered. So the person who joins an order out of their own free will and choice, I think should be given the right to know what is going on with their mail. Just my opinion.

 

[Beachcomber]

When I was younger, I gave considerable thought to entering religious life and I discerned with some communities. I discovered that some did indeed censor mail, both incoming and outgoing. The ones that I personally knew of were cloistered. The couple active communities I investigated did not.

Many years later, I became friends with a woman at my parish who had been a cloistered nun for some years. I asked her about the practice and she confirmed that it went on. She further told me that many letters from her family to her had been intercepted and she never saw them. In her particular case, it might have been a good thing, she said, because her family was very much against her entering religious life and the letters were tirades against her. Reading them would have upset her too much.

Just my opinion, but I don’t particularly like the idea of reading and censoring one’s mail. However, if a person knows that the community does that and enters anyway, then that’s their choice. As for reading your family’s mail, where’s the trust? I would never think of reading DH’s stuff or his e-mail or whatever.