The practice of sola scriptura from the 1st century to the 4th century...?

[jericho777]

John Calvin published his institutes of religion in LATIN…go figure.

That was so the cc could understand it.

 

[Nicea325]

I’m not here to defend Martin Luther or those around him or the cc. The OT was translated into Greek and other languages where the Jews settled so they could comprehend the word. The NT was originally written in Greek the common language. As language and locations changed the church kept Latin as the only language for the scriptures.

Tyndale’s death was sanctioned by the church leadership.

Again,you present faulty information. The Church did not only keep Latin for the Scriptures. The Church also existed in the East and many spoke Greek,Sryiac,etc.

As for Tyndale? Why do you keep mentioning him? Is he your idol or something? The church is full of sinners,so I find it absurd when non-Catholics bring issues up like Tyndale. Every single Protestant,fundamentalist,etc church is full of sinners. I find it amazing how non-Catholics claim to be so “Biblical” correct;but yet, totally go blind or out of mere convenience forget what their Bibles say about Jesus leaving His church for the sinners.

 

[jericho777]

Again,you present faulty information. The Church did not only keep Latin for the Scriptures. The Church also existed in the East and many spoke Greek,Sryiac,etc.

As for Tyndale? Why do you keep mentioning him? Is he your idol or something? The church is full of sinners,so I find it absurd when non-Catholics bring issues up like Tyndale. Every single Protestant,fundamentalist,etc church is full of sinners. I find it amazing how non-Catholics claim to be so “Biblical” correct;but yet, totally go blind or out of mere convenience forget what their Bibles say about Jesus leaving His church for the sinners.

It was the goal of christian missionaries and bible societies to translate the word of God into native languages so people could read the word of God for themselves. The church was slow to do this.

It’s not about Tyndale. The church made it illegal to translate or print the word of God. The punishment could be death.

 

[Nicea325]

Hi nicea, It is not that the mass was in Latin but, only in Latin way after it was a common language. Martin Luther posted his theses in Latin so only the church could understand and not the general public. The reason people go to church is to worship and hear from God. It was against church rules to have the mass in anything but Latin.

I have no protestant heroes. The issue is not Tyndale’s translations but his death for daring to translate the word of God into a language people could read and understand. Why did the church forbid this in the first place?

We are going in circles here. First of all,what exactly is your point about the Mass being in Latin? What is your hang up with it? What are you trying to prove? My suggestion is study languages and its correlations with culture and history.

Well he sure seems like a hero because you constantly bring up his name. Second,you need to study the church at the time of Tyndale’s life. Simply because he wanted to translate the Bible into English does not prove the general public wanted it in English. How do come to such a conclusion? Third,what % of the public was able to read such a deep and at times difficult book?

Why did the church forbid this? This is the question which blows my mind away by non-Catholics. Either the Bible is sacred or isn’t? More important,the fact Tyndale wanted to translate into English or any other language does mean he was the person capable of doing it. Case in point,read background of the JW’s New World Translation and the group of so-called “experts” who tried to translate it. It seems you make conclusions, which barely touches the real reasons or the circumstances going on at the time with the church. People heare Tyndale and automatically make false accusations and or conclusions against the CC.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t see how I was being critical of the Jews. They were a religiously centered culture and it seems to me the bulk of their literature was of religious nature.

No. You said all they had to read was the bible and since most were illeterate they probably did not read that much.

 

[CopticChristian]

That was so the cc could understand it.

So the conclusion is that all things written by people like Calvin, Luther and the like were written in Latin so that the Catholic Church could understand it. This suggests a great deal of respect for the Church. Since you believe that the need for an English bible and the like…these people that wrote in Latin were less concerned with getting their messages to the people than to the Church …this deflates the notion that the Church kept information from the people since people could read latin.

 

[CopticChristian]

It was the goal of christian missionaries and bible societies to translate the word of God into native languages so people could read the word of God for themselves. The church was slow to do this.

It’s not about Tyndale. The church made it illegal to translate or print the word of God. The punishment could be death.

Doing this has not done much for the Protestant cause. Protestant conversions certainly did not respond to the wealth of printing material and missions.

 

[jericho777]

Would you agree that the Jewish people had a strong oral tradition that accompanied their scriptures, along with an authoritative teaching authority, as represented by the “seat of Moses” - in the synagogues? Matt. 23:2

The oral tradition conflicts with the written word. How could there be a teaching authority with so many different sects with very different beliefs? Jesus Himself did not follow their man made traditions and let them know so.

 

[Nicea325]

It was the goal of christian missionaries and bible societies to translate the word of God into native languages so people could read the word of God for themselves. The church was slow to do this.

It’s not about Tyndale. The church made it illegal to translate or print the word of God. The punishment could be death.

It was the goal of missionaries and Bible socities to translation the Bible? You have empirical evidence supporting such a position? If I recall,Jesus nor the 12 teach one must be able to read the Bible in their native tongue to learn about the Word of God? Jesus says in Luke if one has ears then let him listen. Your argument is far to Protestant in belief,it is time to study Christianity from a historical view,not from 500 years biased opinions.

It is not about Tryndale? Well you sure make it seem like it is about him. Again…either the Bible is sacred or not? Was Tyndale an expert in translating ancient languages?

 

[pablope]

It was the goal of christian missionaries and bible societies to translate the word of God into native languages so people could read the word of God for themselves. The church was slow to do this.

It’s not about Tyndale. The church made it illegal to translate or print the word of God. The punishment could be death.

Actually, a husband and wife team went to South America to apply this…and this is their story, in a real life situation:

How I Solved the Catholic Problem

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

excerpts:

There was also the problem of illiteracy in Latin America. Since childhood I had been steeped in the mindset that the Bible is the literal touchstone of all things Christian. Consequently, I had a hard time integrating the Evangelical “read it for yourself” approach with a culture in which many people couldn’t read.
And finally, the Protestant notion of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) fell apart each time I tried to test it. I began to see that Evangelicalism’s insistence on going by the Bible alone led continually into division and problems. Worse yet, claiming to go by the Bible alone didn’t really provide any certitude of belief for believers.

A bigger problem is the disease of dissension, which is endemic to protestantism. When the Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Fundamentalists, and the other well-meaning missionaries came to Guatemala, they brought with them all the doctrinal spats that American churches split over. Guatemalan churches, like their American counterparts, are constantly in a state of strife and doctrinal turmoil, splitting into new churches. New denominations spring up in Guatemala at a breathtaking rate. Pastors, (often self-proclaimed, with little or no education) found new churches, taking large portions of their former congregations with them.
In one little Evangelical church the leaders decided to get hymnals (at great expense to the members) and tone down the music on Sundays, so the neighbors wouldn’t think they were Pentecostals. Some members left because they didn’t want to give up swaying and hand-clapping during worship.
Another church split over the election of a female elder. Splinter groups split from splinter groups which had split from other splinter groups. The church was “multiplying,” all right.

“If a person’s knowledge of truth depends to a great measure upon his ability to read and understand and use Scripture, and if that person’s growth in Christ depends upon his being able to do the same, what about the illiterate?”

This realization was earth-shaking. I saw that evangelicalism had become, by its “Bible alone” principle, a religion of the literate elite. As a missionary taking the gospel to illiterate people, I realized I had to be absolutely sure, before God, that what I was telling them was, in fact, the Christian Faith, free from error. It had to be 100 percent Truth with a capital T. The problem was, using the “Bible alone” principle I had been taught, I had no way to be absolutely sure.

I remember hearing one day how a Methodist missionary on one side of the mountain made a deal with the Pentecostal missionary on the other side saying, “I won’t tell your people they need to baptize their babies if you won’t tell mine that they need to speak in tongues.”

I felt if only I could firm up my own beliefs, I’d be able to find the answer. The more I thought about this, the scarier my conclusions became, because the bottom line for me and for every other individual Protestant Christian was this: Theology for the modern Evangelical is a matter of his own opinion about what Scripture means.

 

[joe370]

Actually, a husband and wife team went to South America to apply this…and this is their story, in a real life situation:

How I Solved the Catholic Problem

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

excerpts:

There was also the problem of illiteracy in Latin America. Since childhood I had been steeped in the mindset that the Bible is the literal touchstone of all things Christian. Consequently, I had a hard time integrating the Evangelical “read it for yourself” approach with a culture in which many people couldn’t read.
And finally, the Protestant notion of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) fell apart each time I tried to test it. I began to see that Evangelicalism’s insistence on going by the Bible alone led continually into division and problems. Worse yet, claiming to go by the Bible alone didn’t really provide any certitude of belief for believers.

A bigger problem is the disease of dissension, which is endemic to protestantism. When the Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Fundamentalists, and the other well-meaning missionaries came to Guatemala, they brought with them all the doctrinal spats that American churches split over. Guatemalan churches, like their American counterparts, are constantly in a state of strife and doctrinal turmoil, splitting into new churches. New denominations spring up in Guatemala at a breathtaking rate. Pastors, (often self-proclaimed, with little or no education) found new churches, taking large portions of their former congregations with them.
In one little Evangelical church the leaders decided to get hymnals (at great expense to the members) and tone down the music on Sundays, so the neighbors wouldn’t think they were Pentecostals. Some members left because they didn’t want to give up swaying and hand-clapping during worship.
Another church split over the election of a female elder. Splinter groups split from splinter groups which had split from other splinter groups. The church was “multiplying,” all right.

“If a person’s knowledge of truth depends to a great measure upon his ability to read and understand and use Scripture, and if that person’s growth in Christ depends upon his being able to do the same, what about the illiterate?”

This realization was earth-shaking. I saw that evangelicalism had become, by its “Bible alone” principle, a religion of the literate elite. As a missionary taking the gospel to illiterate people, I realized I had to be absolutely sure, before God, that what I was telling them was, in fact, the Christian Faith, free from error. It had to be 100 percent Truth with a capital T. The problem was, using the “Bible alone” principle I had been taught, I had no way to be absolutely sure.

I remember hearing one day how a Methodist missionary on one side of the mountain made a deal with the Pentecostal missionary on the other side saying, “I won’t tell your people they need to baptize their babies if you won’t tell mine that they need to speak in tongues.”

I felt if only I could firm up my own beliefs, I’d be able to find the answer. The more I thought about this, the scarier my conclusions became, because the bottom line for me and for every other individual Protestant Christian was this: Theology for the modern Evangelical is a matter of his own opinion about what Scripture means.

All really good points. Leaning on 2000 years of Catholic leadership via the perpetual guidance of the holy spirit is definitely the way to be absolutely sure in my humble opinion.

 

[pismopal]

Unfortunately the church made it a crime to translate and print bibles on one’s own. So William Tyndale’s death for translating scriptures never happened. Hmm interesting. I don’t think you appreciate hearing the mass in a language you can understand. It enables you to participate fully.

Incidentally do you think this forum would have been allowed by the church prior to the reformation?

And protestants did not commit atrocities on a par with and exceeding anything done by Catholics? Unfortunately, England made it a crime punishable with death to practise the same religion earlier embraced by the serial killer Henry and his daughter Elizabeth. Want some more examples…or do you just wish to conceed that it wasn’t a very tender time for those with opposing religious views?? I, and most Catholics, I am confident, can appreciate the mass in any language…and I have, in several non english speaking countries. Fortunately we can receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in Holy Communion so the liturgy of the word is icing on the cake in any language. This is called, participating fully in my mind.
Incidentally, do you think this forum would have been allowed in Ireland during a long period of her history while ruled with the tender mercies of protestant England or in England…say during Elizabeth’s reign?
I think your historical references are a little one sided…to say the very least. If you want to play mistreatment “ping pong”…you are on, my dear friend

 

[pismopal]

Just a point of fact …Tyndale was killed because he was accused of being heretical…not because he translated the Bible.

 

[CompSciGuy]

And protestants did not commit atrocities on a par with and exceeding anything done by Catholics? Unfortunately, England made it a crime punishable with death to practise the same religion earlier embraced by the serial killer Henry and his daughter Elizabeth. Want some more examples…or do you just wish to conceed that it wasn’t a very tender time for those with opposing religious views?? I, and most Catholics, I am confident, can appreciate the mass in any language…and I have, in several non english speaking countries. Fortunately we can receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in Holy Communion so the liturgy of the word is icing on the cake in any language. This is called, participating fully in my mind.
Incidentally, do you think this forum would have been allowed in Ireland during a long period of her history while ruled with the tender mercies of protestant England or in England…say during Elizabeth’s reign?
I think your historical references are a little one sided…to say the very least. If you want to play mistreatment “ping pong”…you are on, my dear friend

Also worthy of note is that Tyndale was killed by the apostate Church of England and not the Roman Catholic Church…

 

[CompSciGuy]

Just a point of fact …Tyndale was killed because he was accused of being heretical…not because he translated the Bible.

Also worthy of note is that Tyndale was killed by the apostate Church of England and not the Roman Catholic Church… just sayin’…