The practice of sola scriptura from the 1st century to the 4th century...?

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QUOTE=jericho777;8500931]Heuchler, the ceremonial law from the OT has passed away. The NT is totally different in focus and practice. Christ is the center of the Christian’s life there is no need for the external rituals to bring one into relationship i.e. we are circumcised in our hearts not our flesh. Heb 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The only command not mentioned in the NT is to keep holy the Sabbath. We are not bound to any particular day. Rom 14:5-6 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These types of external things tend to become central obscuring what really is essential for faith.
There were no printing presses in OT Israel yet there was literacy. Why, because the Jews made reading the Torah an important issue for all./QUOTE]
Engage me and show me so that I may learn. What are the statistics for literacy in ancient Israel? Show me where it is written that all Jews read the Torah.

faqs.org/childhood/Ke-Me/Literacy.html
As Carlo M. Cipolla shows in Literacy and Development in the West, literacy rates for Catholic Europe as a whole were roughly in line with these statistics from France. Protestant Europe fared much better, with literacy rates of maybe 35 to 45 percent. In addition, Cipolla makes it clear that within these statistics we can see great variation by class and geography: the urban bourgeoisie had literacy rates of at least 90 percent, as compared pared to a rate of 10 percent for rural peasants. Furthermore, literacy rates differed between the sexes: a 1880 government study in France shows that between 1686 and 1690 the female literacy rate (based on ability to sign) was just 14 percent, while the male rate was 36 percent.
usatoday.com/news/education/2009-01-08-adult-literacy_N.htm
Literacy study: 1 in 7 U.S. adults are unable to read this story
Please tell me. Have we slipped backward in our literacy rates since the time of Israel?

evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?
option=com_custom_content&task=view&id=4172
Thus, it is no exaggeration to say that the
total literacy rate in the Land of Israel at that time (of Jews only, of
course), was probably less than 3%.
You should be aware that this fantasy of yours in literacy is consistent with your other fantasies. You may want to think before you write. One fantasy begets another.👍

Just because you can read does not mean you understand.
 
You really are too funny. God directly spoke to Abraham so he didn’t need a bible did he.
So then your argument is self-refuting. You said: The Torah-alone. So how could the Torah-alone argument hold any validity if God spoke to Abraham?
 
Heuchler, the ceremonial law from the OT has passed away. The NT is totally different in focus and practice. Christ is the center of the Christian’s life there is no need for the external rituals to bring one into relationship i.e. we are circumcised in our hearts not our flesh. Heb 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The only command not mentioned in the NT is to keep holy the Sabbath. We are not bound to any particular day. Rom 14:5-6 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

These types of external things tend to become central obscuring what really is essential for faith.

There were no printing presses in OT Israel yet there was literacy. Why, because the Jews made reading the Torah an important issue for all.
So, why do protestants have traditions such as sola scriptura, we never see it in the new testament and the Bible wasn’t even compiled at until around 300 and sola scriptura wasn’t around till after the 1500s.
And the Old testament law is gone away completely? Your scripture quotes only referenced to how it didn’t matter what you ate on the sabbath, it didn’t mean there was no longer a holy day.

And keeping the Sabbath holy was in line with the Apostles who stated in a book from about 70 AD called the didache which means teachings of the Apostles “On the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.”

Iraeneus a bishop wrote in 178 that "“The duty of celebrating the mystery of the resurrection of our Lord may be done only on the day of the Lord.”

And Justin Martyr wrote “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things … But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.”

So apparently everyone from the early church followed this tradition and it was around from the beginning that Sunday was to be the new Sabbath and holy day.
But nowhere in the Bible does it say to give up every tradition and to not have those things. It actually says to hold fast to your traditions m and these are traditions that have come from the one Church that was around since Christ. Personally, I’ll trust it.
 
What was the reason for keeping the mass in Latin only and not in a language native people’s could understand and comprehend until recent times?

Why was William Tyndale murdered by the cc for translating the bible into English?

True the NT was originally written in Greek then translated into Latin.
You just answered your own question:

True the NT was originally written in Greek then translated into Latin

So why do you think the Mass was in Latin? Why would the CC translate it from Greek into Latin? Why provide the Mass in the vernacular? Seems you are trying to stir the pot over an issue which is very logical to comprehend.

Yes unfortunately Tyndale met a horrible fate,but what amazes me is how non-Catholics also fail to comprehend how Protestants also murdered many others and cultures as well. Let us not ignore facts about your beloved Protestant brothers historical back ground.

BTW: Tyndale’s translation was not very well done.
 
Good questions. You may not know this however English is the language of all Air Traffic Controllers even if your from China, Italy, etc. It is a uniform language that is spoken by all pilots.

Latin was the universal language of the Church. It is my understanding that there were other languages being used other than latin authorized prior to Trent. Why? I suppose someone has a better answer. It was the language of the Church and the Church moves slowly to change anything.

William Tyndale. He went to Antwerp where he conducted his share of the classic controversy with Sir Thomas More. After Henry VIII’s change of attitude towards Rome, Stephen Vaughan, the English envoy to the Netherlands, suggested Tyndale’s return, but the reformer feared ecclesiastical hostility and declined. Henry then demanded his surrender from the emperor as one who was spreading sedition in England, and Tyndale left Antwerp for two years, returning in 1533 and busying himself with revising his translations. In May 1535 he was betrayed by Henry Phillips, to whom he had shown much kindness, as a professing student of the new faith. The imperial officers imprisoned him at Vilvorde Castle, the state prison, 6 miles from Brussels, he was tried for heresy and condemned. On the 6th of October 1536 he was strangled at the stake and his body afterwards burnt.

This was a travesty. A priest was murdered.

Calvin too committed murder. These are sins that are not sanctioned for the propagation of any Faith.
The cc as an institution killed people for translating the scriptures into their own language. Calvin was not an institution there is a difference.
 
The cc as an institution killed people for translating the scriptures into their own language. Calvin was not an institution there is a difference.
Well the men who started the revolution with Luther also created a rebellion in the land where many of the poor farmers rose up and attacked the rich and destroyed churches. So, both sides have a bad history. Pointing out the bad in Catholicism does not matter unless we have something in the Catechism which says to burn all Bible translaters. Seeing as we don’t this means it is the cause of men who acted without wisdom. So, don’t make a reference to that unless you want every poor choice made by a protestant pointed out to you.
 
[Engage me and show me so that I may learn. What are the statistics for literacy in ancient Israel? Show me where it is written that all Jews read the Torah.

Literacy - Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society
usatoday.com/news/education/2009-01-08-adult-literacy_N.htm

Please tell me. Have we slipped backward in our literacy rates since the time of Israel?

evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?
option=com_custom_content&task=view&id=4172

You should be aware that this fantasy of yours in literacy is consistent with your other fantasies. You may want to think before you write. One fantasy begets another.👍

Just because you can read does not mean you understand.

If what you say is true how a poor Jewish boy from Galilee could be able to read and not cause a stir. Jews at Bar/Bat Mitzvah read the torah. In Jesus time an individual could read the torah during service. Something that was forbidden in the cc. That was the point I was trying to make. There wasn’t much to read except the bible anyway.

Let’s see what scripture says. John 19:20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
 
The cc as an institution killed people for translating the scriptures into their own language. Calvin was not an institution there is a difference.
This is a generalization that is not true. Some Scripture was translated into English by the Venerable Bead. There were as I understand it other languages where Scripture was translated in part.

The translation into Old Church Slavonic was started in 836 by Cyril and Methodius.

This is how the Slavs were brought to the Faith.

Your objection into English is born of the Western Protestant mind. Did you decide not to address the literacy issue?
 
So, why do protestants have traditions such as sola scriptura, we never see it in the new testament and the Bible wasn’t even compiled at until around 300 and sola scriptura wasn’t around till after the 1500s.
And the Old testament law is gone away completely? Your scripture quotes only referenced to how it didn’t matter what you ate on the sabbath, it didn’t mean there was no longer a holy day.

And keeping the Sabbath holy was in line with the Apostles who stated in a book from about 70 AD called the didache which means teachings of the Apostles “On the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.”

Iraeneus a bishop wrote in 178 that "“The duty of celebrating the mystery of the resurrection of our Lord may be done only on the day of the Lord.”

And Justin Martyr wrote “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things … But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.”

So apparently everyone from the early church followed this tradition and it was around from the beginning that Sunday was to be the new Sabbath and holy day.
But nowhere in the Bible does it say to give up every tradition and to not have those things. It actually says to hold fast to your traditions m and these are traditions that have come from the one Church that was around since Christ. Personally, I’ll trust it.
SS is not in any way like the traditions of the church that are religious practices. There is nothing religious about ss it is a science that puts scripture in its original context and meaning. Applying historical, linguistic and cultural queues to ascertain the true meaning. You could use it to interpret any ancient document to find its meaning.

If a tradition is manmade no matter how nice it is it has no place in the Body. That’s why I’ll stick with the bible.
 
You just answered your own question:

True the NT was originally written in Greek then translated into Latin

So why do you think the Mass was in Latin? Why would the CC translate it from Greek into Latin? Why provide the Mass in the vernacular? Seems you are trying to stir the pot over an issue which is very logical to comprehend.

Yes unfortunately Tyndale met a horrible fate,but what amazes me is how non-Catholics also fail to comprehend how Protestants also murdered many others and cultures as well. Let us not ignore facts about your beloved Protestant brothers historical back ground.

BTW: Tyndale’s translation was not very well done.
Hi nicea, It is not that the mass was in Latin but, only in Latin way after it was a common language. Martin Luther posted his theses in Latin so only the church could understand and not the general public. The reason people go to church is to worship and hear from God. It was against church rules to have the mass in anything but Latin.

I have no protestant heroes. The issue is not Tyndale’s translations but his death for daring to translate the word of God into a language people could read and understand. Why did the church forbid this in the first place?
 
SS is not in any way like the traditions of the church that are religious practices. There is nothing religious about ss it is a science that puts scripture in its original context and meaning. Applying historical, linguistic and cultural queues to ascertain the true meaning. You could use it to interpret any ancient document to find its meaning.

If a tradition is manmade no matter how nice it is it has no place in the Body. That’s why I’ll stick with the bible.
Sola scriptura is the tradition that has been handed down of believing only what is found in the Bible and rejecting all traditions even though it is a tradition and is not found in the Bible. And following the specific books of the Bible is also a tradition that puts its trust in the writers of the Bible and the compilers. To believe in anything puts your faith into your pastors and their traditions.
 
You are too funny. It wasn’t too long ago the mass and the bible were only in latin and no one could understand it. What good was that. The church killed people for having translated a bible into their native tongue. They thought Latin was the only language the bible should be in. Kinda sounds like King James only to me.
Latin was a universal language that was used by learned men. That bromide about “the church killed people for translating a Bible into their own language”…right out of a Jack Chick comic book isn’t it? Either men of the church learned a universal language or each man of the Church had to learn every language spoken in the world…kind of a no brainer isn’t it? Come on…let’s have a little critical thinking before repeating these slurs.🤷
 
If what you say is true how a poor Jewish boy from Galilee could be able to read and not cause a stir. Jews at Bar/Bat Mitzvah read the torah. In Jesus time an individual could read the torah during service. Something that was forbidden in the cc. That was the point I was trying to make. There wasn’t much to read except the bible anyway.Let’s see what scripture says. John 19:20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
You are too critical of the Jews, seeing Jews, through your “the bible only” glasses…

We may not know what they had to read. They recently discovered the dead sea scrolls. There was other stuff written and if it was written it may have been read, not to mention the Pharisee oral tradition later written down. They can for sure be said to have spoken to each other more than they read to each other.

Pseudepigrapha - refers broadly to other ancient Jewish writings which are not part of the HB nor of the LXX, but are often attributed to a biblical figure (e.g. Jubilees, 1 Enoch, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, etc.). They were popular among ancient Jews, and thus are very valuable for historical purposes, even if they were never considered biblical by most people.

Inter-Testamental Literature - another collective term for an even broader range of Jewish literature written “between” the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) - several collections of ancient writings (2nd century BCE to 2nd century CE) discovered between 1947 and 1956 in various caves near the NW shores of the Dead Sea; most famous are the large scrolls and numerous small fragments found in eleven caves near the ruins at Khirbet Qumran, associated by most scholars with the Essenes (a monastic group in Ancient Judaism); although copies of most books of the Hebrew Bible were also found there, more important are the original writings of the Essene/Qumran group itself.

Philo - an important Jewish writer who lived in Alexandria in the early 1st cent. CE (roughly contemporary with Jesus); he used Greek philosophical language and images to interpret Jewish biblical traditions (and vice-versa).

Josephus - the most important Jewish historian from the late 1st century CE; he was a general at the beginning of the First Jewish War against Rome, but surrendered early and then wrote a history of the “Jewish War,” as well as a large history of his people, entitled “The Antiquities of the Jews.”
 
Hi nicea, It is not that the mass was in Latin but, only in Latin way after it was a common language. Martin Luther posted his theses in Latin so only the church could understand and not the general public. The reason people go to church is to worship and hear from God. It was against church rules to have the mass in anything but Latin.

I have no protestant heroes. The issue is not Tyndale’s translations but his death for daring to translate the word of God into a language people could read and understand. Why did the church forbid this in the first place?
John Calvin published his institutes of religion in LATIN…go figure.:eek:
 
Sola scriptura is the tradition that has been handed down of believing only what is found in the Bible and rejecting all traditions even though it is a tradition and is not found in the Bible. And following the specific books of the Bible is also a tradition that puts its trust in the writers of the Bible and the compilers. To believe in anything puts your faith into your pastors and their traditions.
Is this handed down orally or in writing?
 
Well the men who started the revolution with Luther also created a rebellion in the land where many of the poor farmers rose up and attacked the rich and destroyed churches. So, both sides have a bad history. Pointing out the bad in Catholicism does not matter unless we have something in the Catechism which says to burn all Bible translaters. Seeing as we don’t this means it is the cause of men who acted without wisdom. So, don’t make a reference to that unless you want every poor choice made by a protestant pointed out to you.
I’m not here to defend Martin Luther or those around him or the cc. The OT was translated into Greek and other languages where the Jews settled so they could comprehend the word. The NT was originally written in Greek the common language. As language and locations changed the church kept Latin as the only language for the scriptures.

Tyndale’s death was sanctioned by the church leadership.
 
Brother joe, Judaism is not monolithic in its theology during the time of Jesus there were many sects. They had differing doctrines and their only commonality was temple worship. As with any thing the more time goes by the more potential there is to deviate from the original intent. Just read the OT and you will see many times Israel wandered away from God’s truth.

I don’t see an office per se more like a position just as with the other the Holy Spirit has called one into. Where was the central teaching office in Israel that allowed the multitude of sects?
Would you agree that the Jewish people had a strong oral tradition that accompanied their scriptures, along with an authoritative teaching authority, as represented by the “seat of Moses” - in the synagogues? Matt. 23:2
 
SS is not in any way like the traditions of the church that are religious practices. There is nothing religious about ss it is a science that puts scripture in its original context and meaning.

If a tradition is manmade no matter how nice it is it has no place in the Body. That’s why I’ll stick with the bible.
If scripture alone is the sole rule of faith and all one needs for doctrinal and spiritual guidance, then why would Jesus even bother instituting an authoritative Church?

“And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican.”

If, believing in Sola Scriptura, you find yourself differing in opinion with another SS friend, like JonNC for example, (by the way, Jon said that he would defer to the Lutheran church) - as to the meaning of some scripture passage, how does the practice of SS resolve the matter? If this same difference of opinion takes place between 2 catholics, they simply appeal to the teachings of their 2,000 year old Catholic Church for the correct understanding!

If a teaching must be found in scripture to be believed then where does the bible teach anywhere that the Word of God, post apostolic age, was reduced to writing and where does the bible suggest that one must defer only to the written word?

Where does scripture suggest that the following traditions (“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”) - were all eventually committed to the written word?

As a former SS advocate I could not provide an answer to these questions.
 
Latin was a universal language that was used by learned men. That bromide about “the church killed people for translating a Bible into their own language”…right out of a Jack Chick comic book isn’t it? Either men of the church learned a universal language or each man of the Church had to learn every language spoken in the world…kind of a no brainer isn’t it? Come on…let’s have a little critical thinking before repeating these slurs.🤷
Unfortunately the church made it a crime to translate and print bibles on one’s own. So William Tyndale’s death for translating scriptures never happened. Hmm interesting. I don’t think you appreciate hearing the mass in a language you can understand. It enables you to participate fully.

Incidentally do you think this forum would have been allowed by the church prior to the reformation?
 
You are too critical of the Jews, seeing Jews, through your “the bible only” glasses…

We may not know what they had to read. They recently discovered the dead sea scrolls. There was other stuff written and if it was written it may have been read, not to mention the Pharisee oral tradition later written down. They can for sure be said to have spoken to each other more than they read to each other.

Pseudepigrapha - refers broadly to other ancient Jewish writings which are not part of the HB nor of the LXX, but are often attributed to a biblical figure (e.g. Jubilees, 1 Enoch, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, etc.). They were popular among ancient Jews, and thus are very valuable for historical purposes, even if they were never considered biblical by most people.

Inter-Testamental Literature - another collective term for an even broader range of Jewish literature written “between” the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) - several collections of ancient writings (2nd century BCE to 2nd century CE) discovered between 1947 and 1956 in various caves near the NW shores of the Dead Sea; most famous are the large scrolls and numerous small fragments found in eleven caves near the ruins at Khirbet Qumran, associated by most scholars with the Essenes (a monastic group in Ancient Judaism); although copies of most books of the Hebrew Bible were also found there, more important are the original writings of the Essene/Qumran group itself.

Philo - an important Jewish writer who lived in Alexandria in the early 1st cent. CE (roughly contemporary with Jesus); he used Greek philosophical language and images to interpret Jewish biblical traditions (and vice-versa).

Josephus - the most important Jewish historian from the late 1st century CE; he was a general at the beginning of the First Jewish War against Rome, but surrendered early and then wrote a history of the “Jewish War,” as well as a large history of his people, entitled “The Antiquities of the Jews.”
I don’t see how I was being critical of the Jews. They were a religiously centered culture and it seems to me the bulk of their literature was of religious nature.
 
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