The Prayer of Zechariah

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I dont mean the Canticle, but from a comment Gabriel makes.

Luke says, "Zechariah was troubled by what he saw, and fear came upon him. Gabriel replied, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John. This is almost identical to what Gabriel says to Mary, although he actually says, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”

Please tell me if this makes sense.

Gabriel seems to indicate a difference between Zechariah and Mary - in that Zechariah had been praying and he was heard; whereas he only says to Mary, “You have found favor with God.”

I’m sure the Blessed Mother’s life was a constant prayer. My concern is about why God made Zechariah mute. Both souls felt fear, which is almost always the case when humans see Angels - but why was Zechariah silenced?

It seems like Zechariah had been praying with a specific intention (perhaps for quite some time, and perhaps for a child). God granted the petition. Then Zechariah asks the same question Mary does - but, unlike Mary, he loses his voice.

Interestingly, Zechariah and Elizabeth had not yet conceived John. The passage ends with a comment from Elizabeth, “So has the Lord done for me at a time when he has seen fit to take away my disgrace before others.” So John was conceived AFTER they went home.

Another unique distinction is - John and Elizabeth had been married for a long time, whereas Mary was only betrothed to Joseph. So, unlike Zechariah, who was blessed with a marriage and may have had no need to “defend” himself, it might be possible to see Mary as justified in objecting to the Angel as an unmarried, virginal woman.

Still - why did God make Zechariah mute? People say he doubted, but I wonder. He’s a Priest in the temple praying. He’s experiencing normal reactions, which Gabriel understands, and he’s in the middle of being blessed. So what did he really do wrong?

Some say the Gospel writers, while guided by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, may have still struggled with their words. When John is born, Luke writes

"Her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had shown his great mercy toward her, and they rejoiced with her.g 59* When they came on the eighth day to circumcised the child, they were going to call him Zechariah after his father, 60but his mother said in reply, “No. He will be called John.”i 61But they answered her, “There is no one among your relatives who has this name.” 62So they made signs, asking his father what he wished him to be called. 63He asked for a tablet and wrote, “John is his name,” and all were amazed.

Verse 62 says, “They all made signs”. Why? He was mute, not deaf… 🙂

But again note - the early passage focuses on Elizabeth… saying God has shown great mercy to her… so maybe God’s work at this time in history is for some reason favoring women, not men?

What was wrong with Zechariah’s prayer?
 
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Maybe so he no longer prays another prayer that would not be as perfect as the one that had been heard by God. Or… to keep a secret? 🤔 It was not necessarily a punishment it could have been an aspect important to God.
Asking for a sign does not necessarily you will be younger, prettier and healthier. It means God agrees to use you more - who knows what will happen?
 
Great questions! Lots to talk about, here…
Wm777 said:
Gabriel seems to indicate a difference between Zechariah and Mary - in that Zechariah had been praying and he was heard; whereas he only says to Mary, “You have found favor with God.”
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Right. Luke is pointing out a difference here, and you’re right on track in noticing it!
My concern is about why God made Zechariah mute. Both souls felt fear, which is almost always the case when humans see Angels - but why was Zechariah silenced?

Then Zechariah asks the same question Mary does - but, unlike Mary, he loses his voice.
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Actually, he doesn’t ask ‘the same question’. The phrasing of the question (in Zechariah’s case) can be a bit difficult for 21st century Western ears to hear, but in the context of 1st century Jewish Palestine, it makes sense.

Zechariah asks “how shall I know this?” It’s a question about belief. He’s literally standing at the altar of sacrifice, and a messenger of God has just told him what will happen in his future, and his response is “how can I know that what you’ve just told me is true?” (Umm… he’s an angel, buddy. A messenger from God. The closest you’re ever gonna get to interacting with God the Father. That’s how you know that it’s the truth! :roll_eyes: )
Gabriel’s response clues us in to what Zechariah really asked. (After all, he’s asking for a sign that Gabriel is telling the truth.) His response informs Zechariah, “look, buddy… I am Gabriel, an archangel. I stand in the presence of God Himself!” Gabriel isn’t happy that Zechariah is doubting his word (and, by extension, doubting God’s word). Therefore, he says, “because you did not believe my words…”

Mary, on the other hand, doesn’t doubt Gabriel; she just doesn’t understand how it could happen. Totally different vibe. One doubts, the other believes. 😉
Interestingly, Zechariah and Elizabeth had not yet conceived John.
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Mary hadn’t conceived Jesus yet, at the time of the Annunciation, either. Not getting what you’re trying to say. 🤷‍♂️
Another unique distinction is - John and Elizabeth had been married for a long time, whereas Mary was only betrothed to Joseph.
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In that time and place, betrothal was marriage. Mary just hadn’t yet been taken into Joseph’s home. They were unbreakably joined, though. This isn’t 21st century “engagement”. 😉
So, unlike Zechariah, who was blessed with a marriage and may have had no need to “defend” himself, it might be possible to see Mary as justified in objecting to the Angel as an unmarried, virginal woman.
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No. That’s not the vibe at all. If Mary had become pregnant at that point, it would not have been a scandal; she would have just moved in with Joseph. The scandal was that they both knew that Joseph wasn’t the father. (Well, that and the fact that it sure looked like Mary got pregnant while she was away visiting Elizabeth… 🤔)
 
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“How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news. But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time.”

"May it be done to me [Mary] according to your word.”

Zechariah did not believe Saint Gabriel in that Zechariah and Elizabeth would conceive a son naturally. Mary believed Gabriel in that she would conceive a Son supernaturally.
 
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Zechariah questions the angel “How shall I know this? For I am an old man…wife is getting on in years.” While the virgin Mary, Mother of God asks the angel “How shall this be, since I am a virgin?”. Mary knew there was a need for both a man and a woman in order for them to have children so she then asks the angel an open question while Zechariah questions the angel and gives all the reasons why he and his wife can’t have children.
 
Agathon said:
If there was no scandal, Joseph wouldn’t want to put her away not to expose her to shame.
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Joseph wanted to put her away for a different reason than ‘scandal.’ She was pregnant by a man other than her husband – she was an adulteress. The ‘shame’ he could have exposed her to was being outed as such, and being stoned for it. Instead, rather than allow her to face that consequence, he decided to divorce her quietly. That way, she could have her baby, and the assumption would have been that the baby’s father was Joseph. (In the meantime, she could marry the real father, without the prospects of being stoned for her sin.) 😉

What I was trying to express was a rebuttal to @Wm777’s notion that Mary needed to ‘justify herself’ as a “virginal, unmarried woman.” She didn’t. If the baby were hers and Joseph’s, it would not have been a matter of scandal.

(On the other hand, the problem presented itself from the fact that both Mary and Joseph knew that Joseph wasn’t the father of Mary’s baby. 😉 )
 
Gorgias said:
Joseph wanted to put her away for a different reason than ‘scandal.’ She was pregnant by a man other than her husband – she was an adulteress.
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I’m starting to think you don’t know what the definition of scandal is.
 
Gorgias said:
Actually, he doesn’t ask ‘the same question’. The phrasing of the question (in Zechariah’s case) can be a bit difficult for 21st century Western ears to hear, but in the context of 1st century Jewish Palestine, it makes sense.
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May I ask what word Zechariah uses?

If I could look it up, then that might help clarify things.
 
BTW, I still can’t help but find the emphasis on women interesting in both passages.

It’s a blunt interpretation, but since: 1.) Zechariah is doubting, 2.) he’s been married to Elizabeth, 3.) he’s made mute, 4.) they go home and consummate the conjugal act to conceive John, and 5.) Elizabeth almost sounds like “Thank God! Finally…” It almost sounds like Z & E might have been having marital problems - like maybe Zechariah was ignoring Elizabeth.

Could that be true? Elizabeth seems to take the lead once Zach is hushed. Everyone asks her what John’s name will be, which surprisingly isnt “Zachariah” All Zachariah can do is agree, and then he gets his voice back.

A non-Catholic friend, who has a Jewish wife, told me Judaism is a “maternal” religion. You have to be born into it, and it isn’t the paternal, but the mother’s side that makes the child Jewish. I’m not 100% on how that works exactly, but it could explain the emphasis on women.
 
Why are you comparing these two in the first place? John the Baptist was a man, Jesus was God. If Gabriel had the job of speaking to both, why would there be anything particularly similar? Seems Gabriel’s message to each was unique. Right? Somehow you are concerned with questions that tell me you are totally missing the importance of this story. Why don’t you re-read the entire stories as this appears in all the Gospels and quit trying to find comparisons and hear instead the intended message of the narrative. You won’t ask those questions again. Those questions have nothing to do with any of it.
 
Thank you very much for the support, Monicad.

A simple Google search on Mary and Zechariah shows the comparison has been well-known throughout history.

I tried to make clear I was asking a question, not forcing an interpretation, so thank you too for acknowledging the purpose of the forums.

My prayerful reflections on the matter are probably a bit unique, and perhaps even too in-depth, as I do tend to over-read and overthink things at times. I live and study this alone, so sometimes it helps to reach out and talk with people to maintain perspective. Whether or not the interpretation I made is in alignment with traditional or liberal teachings, I dont know, but then that is why I asked…
 
Thank you for your reply. It seems to me whoever has asked this comparison has led themselves and others off.
The two stories are related because John the Baptist was born to pave the way for Christ and to baptize Christ.
Gabriel’s wording wasn’t an issue in this important story or Scripture itself would make mention of it.

If you notice, even among the gospels of what Christ himself said or did, the very same stories are told by the apostles with

slightly different choices of words. And then add English translation onto it. Nevertheless the full meaning of (in import) is clear

and well understood (wording not ever mentioned as an issue). John the Baptist’s full story was to be

an integral part of our story of salvation. To me it is simple to see Gabriel greeted both. Lot, in Genesis,was met by angels also, and a few

other people in the Bible met angels. The essence of what the angels said was the important thing, not syntax or innuendo or any order

of the words. The stories simply say God sends his messengers when it’s important and Gabriel is

a major messenger. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, the response of Zachcariah and Mary are worth looking at.

But Gabriel’s words have nothing to do with either’s response. Angels of God don’t twist God’s wishes, only humans do that.

No harm in asking, as you said, but we’d have heard it many times over the eons already if Gabriel’s greetings made any difference in

the outcome for anyone. There hasn’t been given down to us by any clergy or apostles or early

Christian writers or even theologians, any worry about what Gabriel said, as an issue at any time.

The church knows most everything about scripture that is significant and would have talked about it long before now. That’s really why I replied.
 
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Agathon said:
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Gorgias:
Joseph wanted to put her away for a different reason than ‘scandal.’ She was pregnant by a man other than her husband – she was an adulteress.
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I’m starting to think you don’t know what the definition of scandal is.
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I’m starting to think I need to spell it out more clearly for you, then… 😉

In play is @Wm777’s suggestion that Mary’s pregnancy would have been scandalous in its own right, since he claims she was an “unmarried woman.” I countered that this was not the case – if she had gotten pregnant by Joseph, it would not have been scandalous; after all, she was already espoused, and merely had not yet been taken into Joseph’s home. Having become pregnant, all she has to do is move in with Joseph. No harm, no foul.

Hence, “not scandal.”

(@Agathon, you countered that in the absence of the pregnancy being scandalous, “Joseph wouldn’t want to put her away”. That, too, is mistaken: Joseph doesn’t want to divorce her because she’s pregnant – he wants to divorce her because he thinks she’s an adulteress. That doesn’t bring ‘scandal’ into Joseph’s life: what it brings is a death sentence for Mary! Therefore, rather than see her stoned, he figures he can divorce her, and that way, at least she’ll live. She’ll be a single mom (presumed to have been impregnated by Joseph), unless and until someone else marries her, but at least she’ll be alive.)

See the distinction?
 
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Agathon said:
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Gorgias:
Joseph doesn’t want to divorce her because she’s pregnant – he wants to divorce her because he thinks she’s an adulteress.
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Which was what Mary’s pregnancy screamed out to him.
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Of course. To Joseph, who knows he’s not the biological father. But, contra @Wm777’s point, the pregnancy in itself wasn’t a scandal. 😉
 
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