The Precision of Design

[tonyrey]

To reject Design implies that we exist for no particular reason and have been thrust into the world by blind forces. We have no particular vocation and no obligation to develop the talents and abilities we happen to have. We have no incentive to persevere in the quest for truth and meaning because the universe has no rational foundation. We have to establish arbitrary purposes for ourselves in a purposeless world. Goodness, evil, justice, the right to life, the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity all become human conventions unrelated to reality. Death is literally a dead-end which leads to total oblivion and swallows up everyone and everything we love and cherish.

Compare this view with the following:

“So it is with the parts of the universe: each creature exists first for its own proper activity and well-being; second, lower creatures are for the higher, as plants and beasts are for men; third, each is for the integrity of the whole; last, the whole universe with all its parts is ordered to God as to its end, by copying and sharing forth divine goodness to the glory of God.” - St Thomas Aquinas

In other words there is a hierarchy of purposes in the universe. Evolutionary development, of which St Thomas was unaware, is further evidence for the continuity of purpose in the world. He did not regard the individual parts of the universe as perfectly good in themselves but only as contributing to the perfection of the whole. He specifically states that “a bodily creature is good in its nature, not unboundedly so, but in a partial and contracted manner. Hence the conflict of one thing with another, though both in themselves are good”. That is why evil is an inevitable consequence of Design.

Design implies that there are definite purposes in life. Each of us has a particular vocation for which we have specific talents and abilities. We have an obligation to develop our potentialities to the best of our ability because life is a gift. We persevere in the search for truth and meaning because the universe is rational and everything ultimately fits into an intelligible pattern. Purpose is not a rare phenomenon but the dominant feature of existence. Good fulfils purpose and evil frustrates it. Justice reflects the intrinsic worth of every person and after death we shall all receive exactly what we deserve. We are all free, equal, brothers and sisters with a right to life because we exist by Design. We exist in order to choose what to believe, how to live and who to love - ourselves or others.

How can any reasonable person believe Design lacks precision and explanatory power?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

To reject Design implies that we exist for no particular reason and have been thrust into the world by blind forces. We have no particular vocation and no obligation to develop the talents and abilities we happen to have. We have no incentive to persevere in the quest for truth and meaning because the universe has no rational foundation. We have to establish arbitrary purposes for ourselves in a purposeless world. Goodness, evil, justice, the right to life, the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity all become human conventions unrelated to reality. Death is literally a dead-end which leads to total oblivion and swallows up everyone and everything we love and cherish.

Compare this view with the following:

“So it is with the parts of the universe: each creature exists first for its own proper activity and well-being; second, lower creatures are for the higher, as plants and beasts are for men; third, each is for the integrity of the whole; last, the whole universe with all its parts is ordered to God as to its end, by copying and sharing forth divine goodness to the glory of God.” - St Thomas Aquinas

In other words there is a hierarchy of purposes in the universe. Evolutionary development, of which St Thomas was unaware, is further evidence for the continuity of purpose in the world. He did not regard the individual parts of the universe as perfectly good in themselves but only as contributing to the perfection of the whole. He specifically states that “a bodily creature is good in its nature, not unboundedly so, but in a partial and contracted manner. Hence the conflict of one thing with another, though both in themselves are good”. That is why evil is an inevitable consequence of Design.

Design implies that there are definite purposes in life. Each of us has a particular vocation for which we have specific talents and abilities. We have an obligation to develop our potentialities to the best of our ability because life is a gift. We persevere in the search for truth and meaning because the universe is rational and everything ultimately fits into an intelligible pattern. Purpose is not a rare phenomenon but the dominant feature of existence. Good fulfils purpose and evil frustrates it. Justice reflects the intrinsic worth of every person and after death we shall all receive exactly what we deserve. We are all free, equal, brothers and sisters with a right to life because we exist by Design. We exist in order to choose what to believe, how to live and who to love - ourselves or others.

Precisely! The “Design” worldview is preferable not because it can be proven conclusively (which I have not seen), but because it best explains the world that we actually live in, and the intuitions which we actually have. Of course, maybe I am just speaking for myself in this, but Design is the only thing I have found that explains the possibility of goodness in this world.

In a world without Design, goodness would be impossible – or, rather, it could only be true because of how we define the word “goodness”. If one didn’t desire to be good, but desired to be bad, then “good” for him.

I’ve spent some periods of my life embroiled in sin, and I must say that Design was especially convincing during those times. The world seemed haunted by a power that was God, a power I could not escape from – but God was, as it were, my Enemy. I have a feeling that the reason so many people recoil from the hypothesis of design is because they are trying to convince themselves that it’s not true.

Some true things cannot be proven - but they can nevertheless be known.

 

[Detales]

To reject Design implies that we exist for no particular reason and have been thrust into the world by blind forces. No, it does not. We have no particular vocation and no obligation to develop the talents and abilities we happen to have. Actually, yes. we do We have no incentive to persevere in the quest for truth and meaning because the universe has no rational foundation. **IS ** doesn’t need a rational foundation, but may include rationality in manifestation We have to establish arbitrary purposes for ourselves in a purposeless world. Who says it is purposeless?And why is there need for other purpose than to BE? Goodness, evil, justice, the right to life, the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity all become human conventions unrelated to reality. They are human conventions as far as we can see our own veiled Essence Death is literally a dead-end which leads to total oblivion and swallows up everyone and everything we love and cherish. Oblivion. or sleep, with or without dreams, may be the fate of those not awake. It is so even during Earthly living.

Compare this view with the following:

“So it is with the parts of the universe: each creature exists first for its own proper activity and well-being; second, lower creatures are for the higher, as plants and beasts are for men; third, each is for the integrity of the whole; last, the whole universe with all its parts is ordered to God as to its end, by copying and sharing forth divine goodness to the glory of God.” - St Thomas Aquinas Nicely put, if translated correctly “Idem non idem,” remember. My chief question would be with the word “for.” As noted elsewhere, each stage of awareness incorporates and transcends the previous. Each is inseparable from the whole, or from God. Thus God is indeed Self glorified.

In other words there is a hierarchy of purposes in the universe. Evolutionary development, of which St Thomas was unaware, is further evidence for the continuity of purpose in the world. He did not regard the individual parts of the universe as perfectly good in themselves but only as contributing to or taking part in the perfection of the whole. He specifically states that “a bodily creature is good in its nature, not unboundedly so, but in a partial and contracted manner. Hence the conflict of one thing with another, though both in themselves are good”. That is why evil is an inevitable consequence of Design. “Evil” being a superimposed value judgment of mortal mind perceiving and acting in the limits of subject/object duality

Design implies that there are definite purposes in life. Design is conjectural relative to purpose. Discovery is a far more likely mode appearing, again, to us as “purpose” in the same sense that play has purpose. Each of us has a particular vocation for which we have specific talents and abilities. Very much so We have an obligation opportunityto develop our potentialities to the best of our ability because life is a gift or not. We persevere in the search for truth and meaning because some of us make the universe (is) rational and everything ultimately fits into an intelligible pattern as far as we are able to rationalize it. Purpose is not a rare phenomenon but the dominant feature of existence so long as we impose it on existence. Good fulfills purpose and evil frustrates it. good, equatable to God, is the lessening of objective confinement. Evil is ignorance thought to be real Justice reflects the intrinsic (worth) relative to awareness of every person and after death we shall all receive exactly what we deserve. As we do now according to the Law of reciprocity. That’s a given We are all free, equal, in Essence, not ability, brothers and sisters with a right to life because we exist by the Love that appears to ID thiking as Design. We exist in order to choose what to believe, how to live and who to love - ourselves or others.

How can any reasonable person believe Design lacks precision and explanatory power? Your precision works very well within your historically available and self imposed parameters. There may be more to it than you* think*. “The Universe is not only greater than we imagine, it is greater than we can imagine.” (I forget who said that.)

 

[Detales]

"The world seemed haunted by a power that was God, a power I could not escape from – but God was, as it were, my Enemy. I have a feeling that the reason so many people recoil from the hypothesis of design is because they are trying to convince themselves that it’s not true.

Or perhaps they see God from a different standpoint. The most despised person in a mental facitlity is often the Doctor. (Root derivation of “doctor” is “teacher.”) It would not be a surprise, then, that a force manifesting as good in one’s life may cause recoil. It fits the model of the three forces of change so useful in self observation and transformation.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Or perhaps they see God from a different standpoint. The most despised person in a mental facitlity is often the Doctor.

Interesting thought. Perhaps the real issue these people would have is an issue of authority. They are not really questioning the doctor’s existence, but rather his authority.

It is the indisputable authority of God that makes us fear Him, and the only way we have to avoid the spectre of this authority is to doubt His existence. If he existed, then we would have to change. I do not disparage the concept of doubting God, mind you – I think such doubt is quite natural and reasonable. But I do sometimes question the motives of those who doubt on principle, without ever questioning themselves.

 

[edwest2]

Design can be observed in nature. This is evident. Such design requires a designer. I have noticed that for some subjects, the only response is to say it is not true. For the subject of design, it is indeed true. Just as the archaeologist recognizes an arrowhead from a triangular bit of rock. Humans are capable of identifying design.

Peace,
Ed

 

[buffalo]

Modern science exists today because of the Catholic recognition that the universe is intelligible. We re-cognize what is cognized.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

We re-cognize what is cognized.

Well said!

 

[Detales]

“I think such doubt is quite natural and reasonable. But I do sometimes question the motives of those who doubt on principle, without ever questioning themselves.”~~P-Son.

My point exactly. That principle that is doubted on could be atheist, Pocomaniac, Chrisatdelphian, Shintoist, Cargo Cult, Catholic, or whatever. It is the whole point of that ancient, revered, and exceptionally practical dictum: Know Thyself. If you don’t appreciate the shenanigans of your own mind, you are playing into the hands of the deceiver. Satan is depicted with horns and a fork to signify dualism, or the divided mind that does not know itself.

As for observing design in Nature, what could be more natural? we see faces, genitals, Jesus and Mary in everything from tree bark to dirty windows, to rocks and mountains, to pizza pans and clouds. That is the brain doing what the brain does. It does not mean that God designed the Universe in any sense that we would imagine that happening. There is an inherent fault in that than none of the posters here advocating ID have yet admitted to. I’d love to be present when that light goes on in someone’s noggin!

And Buffalo, go back to your history books, for your own sake. How utterly… sorry, I was about to gain more demerits. But do go and read some history.

 

[buffalo]

“I think such doubt is quite natural and reasonable. But I do sometimes question the motives of those who doubt on principle, without ever questioning themselves.”~~P-Son.

My point exactly. That principle that is doubted on could be atheist, Pocomaniac, Chrisatdelphian, Shintoist, Cargo Cult, Catholic, or whatever. It is the whole point of that ancient, revered, and exceptionally practical dictum: Know Thyself. If you don’t appreciate the shenanigans of your own mind, you are playing into the hands of the deceiver. Satan is depicted with horns and a fork to signify dualism, or the divided mind that does not know itself.

As for observing design in Nature, what could be more natural? we see faces, genitals, Jesus and Mary in everything from tree bark to dirty windows, to rocks and mountains, to pizza pans and clouds. That is the brain doing what the brain does. It does not mean that God designed the Universe in any sense that we would imagine that happening. There is an inherent fault in that than none of the posters here advocating ID have yet admitted to. I’d love to be present when that light goes on in someone’s noggin!

And Buffalo, go back to your history books, for your own sake. How utterly… sorry, I was about to gain more demerits. But do go and read some history.

Which history book?

 

[reggieM]

Those who deny that there is design (plan) say that it is purposeless. Purpose is the result of a deliberate act. If the universe is not the result of a conscious act of creation, then there is no purpose. The reason that there is a need for a purpose other than just to “be” is that life on earth is transitory – it is in movement. On this forum itself, we are questing for an answer – seeking something. This imperfection that every human possesses (ignorance, blindness to the future, limits to our experiences and capabilities) are the aspects that drive purposes and goals – and the journey of life.

Purpose is related to a goal. The ultimate goal is completion and fulfillment of the journey of life. If there was no purpose, then there would be no journey. But then there would be no completion, no fulfillment of potential.

The wish of many atheists is that life will end in an unconscious sleep or merely obliviion. But that contradicts the striving for goals and purpose that is seen everywhere in life – even within atheistic living. It contradicts the universal principles of justice, goodness, love and fulfillment that are present in humanity.

Precision is an aspect of design and it may be present in everything that we recognize as designed. God has created the universe with subtle (and some obvious) evidences of design. He has also created a contrast – so that we could see the difference between design and randomness. So we see some aspects of nature which are random.

 

[Detales]

Those who deny that there is design (plan) say that itb What? is purposeless. Purpose is the result of a deliberate act. Purpose is the reason for a deliberate act. If the universe is not the result of a conscious act of creation, then there is no purpose. Not necessarily The reason that there is a need for a purpose other than just to “be” is that life on earth is transitory – it is in movement. The two are not contradictory. And LIFE is not transitory, forms are. On this forum itself, we are questing for an answer – seeking something. Some are, some aren’t, it seems. This imperfection that every human possesses (ignorance, blindness to the future, limits to our experiences and capabilities) are the aspects that drive purposes and goals – and the journey of life. Yes, because it is innately known by Man that limits are false and are experienced due to identification with mortal mind

Purpose is related to a goal. Yep, Purpose, goal, and aim The ultimate goal is completion and fulfillment of the journey of life. Which is to discover that Man never left home, but only appeared to be the prodigal in order to experience the journey. If there was no purpose, then there would be no journey. But then there would be no completion, no fulfillment of potential.
The fulfillment of potential is to know that completion IS as Self (No, not “you” personally, silly…)

The wish of many atheists is that life will end in an unconscious sleep or merely oblivion. As the current form might experience, if not awakened. But that contradicts the striving for goals and purpose that is seen everywhere in life – even within atheistic living. Though I am not an atheist, I’d say not necessarily ItWhat? contradicts the universal principles of justice, goodness, love and fulfillment that are present in humanity, as necessary but not always enjoyed features of our current general state of subject/object awareness.

Precision is an aspect of design and it may be present in everything that we recognize as designed. That is why we can say “That is a sloppy, inelegant design,” and yet can improve it due to seeing an Ideal. God has “created” the universe with subtle (and some obvious) evidences of design if we are of a mind to superimpose our limits on ALLness. He has also “created” a contrast – so that we could see the difference between design and randomness.?! So we see some aspects of nature which are random, in other words, things we haven’t figured out yet.

 

[reggieM]

Those who deny that there is design (plan) say that itb What?

I didn’t say “itb” so perhaps that explains your confusion.

Purpose is the reason for a deliberate act.

Purpose is the reason for and result of a deliberate act. A deliberate act occurs for a purpose. A deliberate act creates a purpose.

The reason that there is a need for a purpose other than just to “be” is that life on earth is transitory – it is in movement. The two are not contradictory. And LIFE is not transitory, forms are.

I notice here that you skipped some words when you quoted me. You’ll notice that I said “life on earth”. This places life in a context. This is the context in which we are presently living.

On this forum itself, we are questing for an answer – seeking something. Some are, some aren’t, it seems.

Who are not? That will be interesting to learn. But aside from that – you are seeking. You asked a question. You may believe that you have all of the answers for yourself, but you do not have them for others – thus, you seek something, as we all do.

The ultimate goal is completion and fulfillment of the journey of life. Which is to discover that Man never left home, but only appeared to be the prodigal in order to experience the journey.

The journey of life is a discovery and a movement towards fulfillment and union – not a return home but walking towards the Creator.

The fulfillment of potential is to know that completion IS as Self (No, not “you” personally, silly…)

Sure, it could be said that way. Our Lord taught that quite well, of course. We do not seek our Self, but rather lose it. Because it is in losing ourself that we find the completion of our self. This completion is theosis – or union with God (the Creator of our Self) and thus a fulfillment of Self also. That’s a paradox of faith.

ItWhat?

This wish which I just referred to. Notice, I said that atheists wish this, but *it *(the wish) contradicts …

Precision is an aspect of design and it may be present in everything that we recognize as designed. That is why we can say “That is a sloppy, inelegant design,” and yet can improve it due to seeing an Ideal.

Yes, that is an excellent argument.

if we are of a mind to superimpose our limits on ALLness.

I don’t agree.

, in other words, things we haven’t figured out yet.

No, things we have figured out and have understood as being random, just as God wanted us to see them as. God desires us to overcome some randomness with design and not mistake randomness for the order that we should have in our lives.

 

[geometer]

“Man’s utmost knowledge is to know that we do not know God.” St Thomas Aquinas.

I think I’ll take him off my list of great philosophers…

 

[buffalo]

"

“For the agnostic, the unknown holds terrors that he cannot explain.” Yes, very similar to the screams of my devoted, adamantly Catholic, socially serving , good doing, self sacrificing father on his death bed. He had been so well taught in his youth by the Church that God will extract His punishment for evil that this is the state he died in.

"

Purgatory is still no cakewalk.

 

[Detales]

How calous. How Roman Catholic. And the is my considerably censored reply. You have a completely appropriate screen name.

 

[buffalo]

How calous. How Roman Catholic. And the is my considerably censored reply. You have a completely appropriate screen name.

??? What post is this responding to?

 

[Detales]

reggie, maybe this "just as God wanted us to see them as. has some bearing on your faith based misapprehension? Who says?

 

[reggieM]

reggie, maybe this "just as God wanted us to see them as. has some bearing on your faith based misapprehension? Who says?

By faith you ask the question and by faith you’ll answer it.

 

[Benadam]

A recent thought. Seems to be true to me. Not being a scientist or expert in anything it just sounds good to me.

Changing environmental conditions initiate a selection of natures familial to the new environment. All creatures the change is unnatural to are left behind… hehe A remnant is saved to populate, subdue and rule the new world.

Non organic matter and the seemingly arbitrary changes that happens to it directs living matter. Arbitrary movement of living matter is not observed. What is observed is living matter trascending it’self powerfully. The power of cognizance. How does the arbitrary movement of non-living matter provide the means to subject nature to a process of selection that has caused the power of cognizance to transcend in living matter? How does arbitrary movement of non-living matter cause living matter to transcend at all? The power of cognition has transcended in* living* matter through random movements of non-living matter. How does that happen ? Shouldn’t random movements of non-living matter subject nature to random selection? Shouldn’t random selecting cause random powers of nature to rise and fall arbitrarily? Why wasn’t the power of cognition subject to randomness?

God eternally generates Cognizance of Himself. God knowing God.