The Priest facing the people

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In my local church in Ireland, the missalette says it’s ‘The People’s Mass’. I think its unthinking populism plus an inability to humble oneself in any way, especially publicly. It’s all about you because that’s what you’re being told in the wider society.

Everything is made easy, simple and personalised in our consumer society, so Mass is too.
 
In my local church in Ireland, the missalette says it’s ‘The People’s Mass’. I think its unthinking populism plus an inability to humble oneself in any way, especially publicly. It’s all about you because that’s what you’re being told in the wider society.

Everything is made easy, simple and personalised in our consumer society, so Mass is too.
Layman be carefull! You are getting dangerously close to the real crux of the ongoing debate of the post-concilliar changes.👍
 
In my local church in Ireland, the missalette says it’s ‘The People’s Mass’. I think its unthinking populism plus an inability to humble oneself in any way, especially publicly. It’s all about you because that’s what you’re being told in the wider society.

Everything is made easy, simple and personalised in our consumer society, so Mass is too.
Yeah, that about sums it up. One of the primary reason lay people are allowed to go up to the altar. Nice post. 👍
 
Let us review the changes beyond the priest facing the people.

First they move the altar and if you notice many look more like a table.

Then they move the tabernacle and many times from the sight of the congregation

In some churches there is no crucifix, only the processional one which they put on the side or sometimes way in the back.

Then they remove the kneelers in the pews.

Some churches are built in a circle.

I have heard that some churches have large screens, but I can’t verify that one.

Few have candles to light in front of a statue, if there are any statues.

Removal of confessionals that are enclosed for privacy.

Revoval of communion rails.

So what do you have left? A protestant church. What will be next on the agenda I wonder.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

This does not happen in every church, but one or more of the items mentioned you will find a many churches today.
 
A free standing altar table is a return to the oldest traditions of the church, traditions which have been retained in all other Rites. Further, it permits actually following the retained (but non-sensical with attached altars) rubric requiring censing the four sides of the altar table.

The free-standing altar table was the early chuch norm, and still is the norm in all the other rites in use.

The early church held the Eucharist in the home, around the Altar; early illustrations often show the bishop, the priests, deacons, deaconesses, and subdeacons arroud around him and the altar, and the people around them. The earliest non-catacombs illos show free-standing altars. In the catacombs, a saint’s ledge would be used as the altar… and the illos show that, too. In all cases, everyone faces the Eucharist or the gifts to become the Eucharist.

So long as all face the Eucharist, it’s not theologically that big a deal. And certain parishes celebrated vs populem for centuries, due to tombs or damage making ad orientam dangerous.
 
Yes. Anything except what was done for centuries. Pluck a practive out of its historical context and stick it into our edited rite. Because we’ve got degrees and know better than all those old clerics.*

I have to repress the urge to laugh. Really, when you think of the vandalism done to our rite, by academics, in the name of improving it, it’s kinda funny.

We’re living through the greatest act of iconoclasm the Catholic Church has ever seen. A materialist, intellectual culture has decided to re-write a mystical rite. The people in the pews aren’t quite sure why, but they know something is not quite right.

*note: sarcasm]
 
Let us review the changes beyond the priest facing the people.

First they move the altar and if you notice many look more like a table.

Then they move the tabernacle and many times from the sight of the congregation

In some churches there is no crucifix, only the processional one which they put on the side or sometimes way in the back.

Then they remove the kneelers in the pews.

Some churches are built in a circle.

I have heard that some churches have large screens, but I can’t verify that one.

Few have candles to light in front of a statue, if there are any statues.

Removal of confessionals that are enclosed for privacy.

Revoval of communion rails.

So what do you have left? A protestant church. What will be next on the agenda I wonder.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

This does not happen in every church, but one or more of the items mentioned you will find a many churches today.
Well, you need to be careful making claims like these. For example, pews are a Protestant invention adopted by the CC. Old Catholic churches in Europe didn’t have them, just as the Orthodox often don’t. That doesn’t make them wrong, but you are making historical assumptions that are simply incorrect.
 
This is a great question, and I don’t know the answer.

It’s timely for me. I don’t mind the priest facing the people.
But, I was literally upset when I watched a Mass from a Catherdral in Dallas yesterday.
It did not look like a Catholic Church.
When you came down the center isle, at the front of the Church you could see the altar and behind it a picture of Mary.
(In the Bible and elsewhere Mary always defers to her Son, Jesus.)
On the right side of the Church was a large beautiful Crucifix. On the other side was a thrownly Chair for the Bishop.

The Tablernacle was not even in the main part of the Sanctuary. This was the most disturbing to me. When the Consecrated Hosts after Mass are not in the Main Part of the Sanctuary it seems to me that Jesus is getting second best.

Who approved of the Church setting up Churches this way ? ?
It was very disturbing.
 
I have heard that some churches have large screens, but I can’t verify that one.
I can 😦 I’ve seen two.
A free standing altar table is a return to the oldest traditions of the church, traditions which have been retained in all other Rites. Further, it permits actually following the retained (but non-sensical with attached altars) rubric requiring censing the four sides of the altar table.

The free-standing altar table was the early chuch norm, and still is the norm in all the other rites in use.

The early church held the Eucharist in the home, around the Altar; early illustrations often show the bishop, the priests, deacons, deaconesses, and subdeacons arroud around him and the altar, and the people around them. The earliest non-catacombs illos show free-standing altars. In the catacombs, a saint’s ledge would be used as the altar… and the illos show that, too. In all cases, everyone faces the Eucharist or the gifts to become the Eucharist.

So long as all face the Eucharist, it’s not theologically that big a deal. And certain parishes celebrated vs populem for centuries, due to tombs or damage making ad orientam dangerous.
I was taught that the norms for the altar all came from the practice of holding Mass secretly over the tombs of early martyrs. Thus we have relics and such… am I wrong here? :confused:
 
In my local church in Ireland, the missalette says it’s ‘The People’s Mass’. I think its unthinking populism plus an inability to humble oneself in any way, especially publicly. It’s all about you because that’s what you’re being told in the wider society.

Everything is made easy, simple and personalised in our consumer society, so Mass is too.
yes, it is. not only that but also the new thing is that people are saying that it is our Church, therefore we can change whatever we feel like it. that last time i checked, the Bible still says that Jesus called My Church, I will build my Church. Jesus never said: your church, I will have you build your Church.
one cannot ever understimate the power of one error, it will lead one more, one more, soon all become wrong. the blind leading the blind, they both will fall into the pit. Jesus said that.
the worst of it is that not one of our leaders seems to understand what is going and make no effort to stop. those who knows are scared and remain silent while the rebells tear down the Worship to God.
 
Well, I tend to think that it is part of a package of things that contribute a certain orientation God-ward. Alone it might not be such a big deal. There were some though for whom the change to the focus on the congregation was the point.

But I think it is important to understand why people were so focused on thee recovery of very early Christian practices. It is taken as a bit of a given that it was in the 60’s and later on that people began to leave and doubt the Church, but really, it started much before that, with the Enlightenment, and it increased throughout the 20th century. Higher Biblical criticism when it began to filter down to the regular people in some form was devastating, and it had already been devastating to many academics and clergy. Looking at the Bible from a kind of philological standpoint, the same way other old documents were analyzed, really shook people’s faith. Many could no longer think of it or understand it as a document that was in some way the inerrant word of God, a sure foundation.

When some scolars began looking at and making conclusions about early church practices, many thought they had found the answer. If only we could figure out how those first Christians, those closest in time and space to Christ, worshipped and thought, we would have that foundation. And what is more, it seemed that many Christian groups might be able to agree on this, brinbging in the possibility of re-unification.

Together the ideas of recovering an authentic and sure Christian package, turning around the damage the Enlightenment did to the Church, and bringing together different Christian groups, was too much for people to resist. They quickly began to try to incorporate these new “discoveries” into liturgy. They also seemed to fit into the schemes of some who wanted to see reforms in the Church (which really should have been a warning that the information was being interpreted through modern eyes.)

We know now, as some suspected all along, that there are real problems with the conclusions that these people came to. We also know that the practices of the early church cannot provide the firm foundation people were looking for in any case - those documents are just as susceptible to higher criticism as the Bible.

But perhaps by understanding what people were looking for it will be possible to see a way forward. While I think the older liturgies were more substantial in many ways, a simple return to them really does not address the larger problem that the proponents of the changes were trying to solve.
Catholics let themselves to be influenced by protestants. that is why it is so dangerous the divisions.
 
This is a great question, and I don’t know the answer.

It’s timely for me. I don’t mind the priest facing the people.
But, I was literally upset when I watched a Mass from a Catherdral in Dallas yesterday.
It did not look like a Catholic Church.
When you came down the center isle, at the front of the Church you could see the altar and behind it a picture of Mary.
(In the Bible and elsewhere Mary always defers to her Son, Jesus.)
On the right side of the Church was a large beautiful Crucifix. On the other side was a thrownly Chair for the Bishop.

The Tablernacle was not even in the main part of the Sanctuary. This was the most disturbing to me. When the Consecrated Hosts after Mass are not in the Main Part of the Sanctuary it seems to me that Jesus is getting second best.

Who approved of the Church setting up Churches this way ? ?
It was very disturbing.
Well, might it have been in a separate chapel? That isn’t uncommon in Cathedrals.
Catholics let themselves to be influenced by protestants. that is why it is so dangerous the divisions.
You could probably make an argument that the Protestants were influenced by the Catholics in this as much as the other way 'round.
 
Well, you need to be careful making claims like these. For example, pews are a Protestant invention adopted by the CC. Old Catholic churches in Europe didn’t have them, just as the Orthodox often don’t. That doesn’t make them wrong, but you are making historical assumptions that are simply incorrect.
I believe I was refering to kneelers not the pews per se. Kneeling was done by Prophets in the old testament and even by Christ when he was in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Of course over the centuries the Church has added pews and kneelers which in many cases are very beneficial to people who have problems kneeling on the hard floor. I have been in Orthodox churches where there are pews also. I guess it depends on which Orthodox. I will credit the protestants for starting the custom of having pews, I find nothing wrong with them. It surely helps when you have little ones in Mass. Since I have never attended an Orthodox church without pews I wonder if there children just stand for two hours or if they are babies if the parents must hold them. When I was an Episcopalian we had an Orthodox woman who would come into the church during Mass with her 9 or 10 year old son, who would proceed to climb up on a small side altar with a large crucifix above it and kiss it. It was very disrupting. She came often.

Kneeling and prostations were common since the old testament times.

My point is that the “spirit of Vatican II” took over in many areas of the Church. It was not Vatican II who decided many of the changes in the parishes today. Just as many protestants interpret the Bible on their own, many Bishops and priests have done the same with Vatican II.

Hopefully the Holy Father will give clearer rubics to follow in the future so that all will understand exactly what is allowed and what is not.

God Bless

Bernadette
 
You could probably make an argument that the Protestants were influenced by the Catholics in this as much as the other way 'round.
I would have to disagree with you on this point. Since it was the Protestants that broke away from the Church and essentially made their own man made religion.

I don’t understand this attitude in the modern Church to empathize with all the other religions. It seems as though modern ecumenism has taken things a little too far…that’s just my opinion of course…

God Bless
 
I was taught that the norms for the altar all came from the practice of holding Mass secretly over the tombs of early martyrs. Thus we have relics and such… am I wrong here? :confused:
I believe that you are correct 👍

The Catholic Churches are supposed to have the relics embedded in the altar. However, after seeing many, many, many pictures of modern day altars/tables, one would have to question if they contain the actual relics. In my personal opinion, I would say that they don’t…

God Bless
 
Hopefully the Holy Father will give clearer rubics to follow in the future so that all will understand exactly what is allowed and what is not.

God Bless

Bernadette
The rubrics of the Latin Rite are all laid out, and have been for centuries. I believe that the problem is that many Parish Priests and Bishops have decided, on their own accord, to ignore the rubrics and just do whatever they want. Sad…

God Bless
 
One word answer. Appeasement.
You are right. And where did “APPEASEMENT” get us?
  1. Over 80% of the cradle Catholics have left the Church.
  2. We have heretical Catholic politicians, and others making heretical public statements.
  3. We have one political party that has become the “Culture of Death”, and the other with one foot on a banana peel.
  4. 80 Nuns and the CHA who publically supported a health care bill that includes public funding for abortions, euthanasia, government making decisions on rationing of who gets what treatments, and a lack of a “conscience clause” - - instead of following our Bishops.
  5. In the meantime some are out working on bogus envirnomental global warming, and others are working for ILLEGAL Immigrants - - - - - rather than getting our Catholic House in order.
    I wonder what Jesus thinks about all this ?
 
You are right. And where did “APPEASEMENT” get us?
  1. Over 80% of the cradle Catholics have left the Church.
  2. We have heretical Catholic politicians, and others making heretical public statements.
  3. We have one political party that has become the “Culture of Death”, and the other with one foot on a banana peel.
  4. 80 Nuns and the CHA who publically supported a health care bill that includes public funding for abortions, euthanasia, government making decisions on rationing of who gets what treatments, and a lack of a “conscience clause” - - instead of following our Bishops.
  5. In the meantime some are out working on bogus envirnomental global warming, and others are working for ILLEGAL Immigrants - - - - - rather than getting our Catholic House in order.
    I wonder what Jesus thinks about all this ?
While I couldn’t agree with you more, I still don’t understand why the Catholic Hierarchy would want to mimick the Protestants by replacing the altar with a central table and have the Priest face the people…

I would say that our Lord is not too happy with the current situation in His Church today. Why does the Roman Curia continue to sit back and watch the Priests and Bishops abuse their power? It is absolutely beyond logic…

God Bless
 
You are right. And where did “APPEASEMENT” get us?
  1. Over 80% of the cradle Catholics have left the Church.
  2. We have heretical Catholic politicians, and others making heretical public statements.
  3. We have one political party that has become the “Culture of Death”, and the other with one foot on a banana peel.
  4. 80 Nuns and the CHA who publically supported a health care bill that includes public funding for abortions, euthanasia, government making decisions on rationing of who gets what treatments, and a lack of a “conscience clause” - - instead of following our Bishops.
  5. In the meantime some are out working on bogus envirnomental global warming, and others are working for ILLEGAL Immigrants - - - - - rather than getting our Catholic House in order.
    I wonder what Jesus thinks about all this ?
WatchingMedia, Would you please increase the size of your type.

Thank you!
 
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