boy, you hit the nail on the head. while the Church is in total chaos, bishops are out there ruling for things that are against the laws of the land. wait! did not God told us to obey the laws of the land. they are protesting. how shamefull.
well, there is no more excommunication, no more inquisition, and so forth. it is all about love one another and let’'s do whatever pleases us under the love one another logo.
I don’t quite understand how you have a “personal opinion” about whether altars contain relics. It’s like having a “personal opinion” about whether there is holy water in the fonts or whether the candles are made of wax.I believe that you are correct
The Catholic Churches are supposed to have the relics embedded in the altar. However, after seeing many, many, many pictures of modern day altars/tables, one would have to question if they contain the actual relics. In my personal opinion, I would say that they don’t…
God Bless
Well put…
Why can’t I have a personal opinion on this particular subject? I don’t believe that I have pushed my opinion or made any absurd comments… I have formed my opinion based merely on what I have observed.
Oh, I see, you just meant “supposition.”
Touche…
Fair enough – I wasn’t trying to correct your English, I thought maybe you had a special point of view such that, in your opinion, the relics weren’t holy, or although technically in the altar they weren’t “spiritually” in the altar, or something. You just mean, you don’t think there are relics in there, flat out. I’m guessing you’re wrong except maybe in the case of certain temporary or movable altars, but if you’re in doubt you can always ask the pastor.
When you say “table,” do you mean an altar made of wood? As Aramis has said, free-standing altars were the norm in the ancient Church. I would add that the temple in Jerusalem’s was free-standing, as well. One could push that to the point of antiquarianism, but ALSO, as Aramis mentioned, it makes more sense to for the purpose of getting round the altar to incense it. Personally (as you mention personal opinions in another post, Sgt., I think the free standing altar is more aesthetically “altaresque,” for want of a better word. I always think the one’s attached to the walls look more like ornated sideboards, though I do like how most were adapted to be a surround for the Tabernacle, esp. if they were elevated and could be seen from everywhere in the Church.
Maybe this is a good time to ask: why are people so focused on walking around the altar to incense it? From people who would never discuss the value of incense in a million years, if you mention an altar, they immediately say, Oh, it’s gotta be freestanding so the priest can incense it from all sides. I guess I’d put the ability of the priest to incense the altar on the fourth side about #99 on my list of priorities for the design and construction of the altar. So, are people really worried about circumincensation, or is that something that liturgical liberals say to make it sound like they want freestanding altars for liturgically conservative reasons?
Me, too!Maybe this is a good time to ask: why are people so focused on walking around the altar to incense it? From people who would never discuss the value of incense in a million years, if you mention an altar, they immediately say, Oh, it’s gotta be freestanding so the priest can incense it from all sides. I guess I’d put the ability of the priest to incense the altar on the fourth side about #99 on my list of priorities for the design and construction of the altar. So, are people really worried about circumincensation, or is that something that liturgical liberals say to make it sound like they want freestanding altars for liturgically conservative reasons?
And for the record, I’m a liturgical moderate-conservative who favors freestanding altars and finds many attached altars too shelf-like. I just have a hard time believing that anyone could possibly have the slightest concern over incensing that fourth side.
Edited to add: I suppose I should amend that to say, I’m a liturgical moderate conservative in relation to people on CAF; in relation to Catholics in the real world, I’m probably an ultra-conservative.
Not at all…
Well, I would seperate the assertions, myself. I think it has less to do with a free-standing altar and more to do with ad populum.
Agreed. Personally, I find that a lot of attached altars seem, as I say, shelf-like, or maybe like the top of a bedroom dresser where you set your keys and wallet, whereas freestanding altars have a certain je-ne-sais-quoi ancient altaryness to them.
I agree with the latter part of your statement…
I agree with you, but my point that I didn’t make clear is that although there are rubics saying what can be done, they need to also include rubics that state specifically what may not be included in the liturgy. Otherwise these clergy are able to justify whatever they feel like adding,
First of all, he means the tables at the Novus Ordo, not altars. And most Novus Ordo tables do NOT have relics. They’re supposed to, but if they’re not even altars then I doubt they do.
The Protestants and Muslims use those same tables for worship in chapels, such as in hospitals and nursing homes and bookstores; who knows what they would do with the relics.
Well, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a table used for celebrating the Mass, under either form of the rite. Is that just a derogatory way of referring to freestanding altars? Most I’ve seen are very solid in construction.
Oh, do you mean in airport chapels or that sort of thing? I thought in general we were talking abut parish churches here, so obviously no Protestants or Muslims will be using those.
