Any thoughts on how it has evolved from the Upper Room’s Passover meal Eucharist to the ways the Eucharist was celebrated in the Catacombs? And was the custom to face East even when you were east of Jerusalem, or was it to face Jerusalem? I am not sure on this one…
Joan, our Priest switched to facing East (figuratively and literally) last summer. But for a couple of minor comments, everyone is fine with it. Occasionlly another priest must come in to cover, and they’re usually confused, but thanks to our 3 deacons and usually 14-22 servers (in the Sanctuary), we manage with few glitches.
***Interesting point; however the logic seems merky to me.
Ironic. Because of my ‘back’ problems, I *stand *for the entire Mass (no matter how long) at the back of the church or in the choir loft. I “DO” kneel on the wooden floor during Consecration.
Well, yeah, but He probably didn’t fully face many of the disciples either.
:Agreed… This was an exclusive event that Christ shared with his Apostles.Well, yeah, but He probably didn’t fully face many of the disciples either.
But if we’re trying to argue things based on how the first Eucharist may have been celebrated, why not go all the way and replicate the Seder as Jesus and the disciples would have celebrated it? Here are some of the things we’ll need to do first:
All in all, we’ll have to make it look like this
- Dress up in tunics, cloaks, and sandals.
- Based on some possibilities on what the ‘upper room’ may have been like, celebrate it inside a booth or tent erected on a rooftop, or on a guest room of somebody’s home.
- Either recline on couches or sit on the floor.
- Speak in Galilean Aramaic!
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8882/memorial.jpg
And as PJM pointed out, the Mass is not a representation, but a RE-Presentation.
Calm down, PJM! Yes, Jesus did institute the Eucharist during a Paschal meal, but for the Eucharist itself He did not use the Paschal lamb, did He?***Interesting point; however the logic seems merky to me.
What is the PURPOSE of the Eucharist itself and Mass?
Is it not from God, by God and for God? “In Him, With Him, and Through Him?”
Trying to compare the Pascal meal to the yet , but soon to be completed SACRIFICE, is putting the “cart before the horse thinking.”
Eucharist is a memorial [or at least is used to be; and ought to be again], a re-presenation; making the Sacrifice of Christ REAL again and again. Not a represenation,*** BUT a RE-Presenation.
The FOCUS is GOD, not us. We benifit, But so does God **if the Worship **is as it in intended to be; GOD CENTERED:thumbsup:
Love and prayers friend,
You mean that the symbolism in the as orientem is more meaningful… even though I still wonder: toward east, or toward Jerusalem?
But this was how they did it the very first time, wasn’t it? Because some say their traditional ways go as far as the very beginnings of the Church. This is what I was replying to. Their ways are traditional and valid all right. As long as their tradition is accepted, and even encouraged by the Vatican, no problem. But they are no in the truth if they say their traditonal ways are the only ones valid and acceptable in the Catholic Church, even within the Latin Rite. That’s all I am saying.Well, yeah, but He probably didn’t fully face many of the disciples either.
But if we’re trying to argue things based on how the first Eucharist may have been celebrated, why not go all the way and replicate the Seder as Jesus and the disciples would have celebrated it? Here are some of the things we’ll need to do first:
All in all, we’ll have to make it look like this
- Dress up in tunics, cloaks, and sandals.
- Based on some possibilities on what the ‘upper room’ may have been like, celebrate it inside a booth or tent erected on a rooftop, or on a guest room of somebody’s home.
- Either recline on couches or sit on the floor.
- Speak in Galilean Aramaic!
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8882/memorial.jpg
Some people might come with this piece of argument, might they not? I never meant to say that because of it, it would be wrong to keep having the Eucharist the way we’ve been having for a long time!
Towards East would be the more correct answer, I believe. The Jerusalem explanation may be one attempt to give a more deeper meaning to it, perhaps influenced by the Jewish custom of building synagogues and praying facing Jerusalem (this explanation only properly works in Europe and perhaps America, I believe). If churches did face Jerusalem, shouldn’t we expect churches in areas like Greece or England or Scandinavia or Egypt to face southeast, south or northwest instead of east proper?
And isnt Jerusalem also in the East?
Jerusalem is not towards the east if you’re in Cape Town, Stockholm, Goa, or Melbourne.
As Mark and I have said, ONLY if you’re in Europe. If you’re a Christian, say, in Iraq or in India or in Japan, then you’d have to face westward!
There is another thing, wisdomseeker… Once in a church inside Jerusalem, would you just face any direction or would you still face the East? I suppose the latter would be done, would it not?