The priests who sexually abused children? Should they be executed?

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We all have heard stories about policemen, doctors, teachers, counselors, and priests that have betrayed a sacred trust. These individuals represent vocations we look to for guidance, hope, and help. We want to be able to trust them. But, when one of these people violates our trust, it seems much worse and even harder to comprehend, than when other people in society fail. Never-the-less, it doesn’t mean that we should abandon all respect for law enforcement, health care, education, or the church because people who work in those professions and vocations fail to live as Christ calls them to live. After all, the vast majority of people in those vocations, serve in a heroic and exemplary manner.

In Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus Christ described His Church, the Kingdom of Heaven, as being a “field of wheat and weeds,” showing that there would be good and bad, saints and sinners, and everyone in between, in the Church until the day when He returned to judge the nations. This means that, sadly, there will be members of His Church — including priests and bishops — who are notorious sinners. We can see this sad reality even at the very beginning of the Church in the person of the Apostle Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ to His enemies (Matthew 26:16-23 ; Luke 22:47-49), and Simon Peter, who denied the Lord three times (Matthew 26:34, 75).

Notice that even Christ’s own hand-picked followers committed scandalous wickedness! Even so, this did not negate or disprove the truth that Christ transmitted to the world through His Apostles (Mark 16:15). As Christ promised, in spite of the weakness and sinfulness — indeed, the scandal — caused by priest and other Catholics, “the gates of hell will not prevail against” the Church.

sdtouchton.webs.com/
 
With due respect, SJ, consider that the vast majority of abuse cases of children are fathers raping their daughters and their sons.

Not only does this violate the most basic trust (parent/child), the parent is the one responsible for the child’s life 24/7. The parent has much more authority and can. . .and does. . .invoke the authority of God. . .wrongly. Just as the priests are invoking authority. . .wrongly.

I put it to you that not only does the victim of this widespread crime of incest suffer far more, often over periods of years, than most victims of clergy–for some of whom the abuse is inappropriate touching --still unacceptable, of course, but compare inappropriate touching to being raped repeatedly, beaten regularly, threatened and cursed, every day for years. . .

and knowing that the vast majority of people will weep over a child ‘abused by a priest’, but will greet your tale with disbelief, horror, and withdrawal from you because surely ‘you could have stopped it’, ‘you must have provoked it’, ‘you must be lying’. . .

Millions of dollars go to victims because it was a big bad Catholic priest. . .but not a red cent goes to victims of their families. Other family members blame you for bringing things out, not the person who actually caused the abuse in the first place. The people who should be your supports are often your most angry critics. As for therapy, not only do you not get those cushy settlements, but you don’t have victims’ rights groups or even your own family helping you.

There’s a big ‘disconnect’ in today’s society where we will weep for a ‘victim of a priest’ but blame other rape victims who somehow or other must have ‘provoked’ the abuse. Where we will demand millions for one victim, then turn around and put $1 at most in the collection plate to help fund everything else in the Church. Where we will rant bitterly over ‘enforced celibacy’ while fornication, adultery, and divorce skyrocket and homosexual sex is normal and praiseworthy. Where it’s all about ‘the children’. . .but only if they’re born to affluent people who are ready to care for them. . .millions can be aborted or abused so long as they aren’t being abused by a Catholic priest. . .
 
sdtouchton said:
We all have heard stories about policemen, doctors, teachers, counselors, and priests that have betrayed a sacred trust. These individuals represent vocations we look to for guidance, hope, and help. We want to be able to trust them. But, when one of these people violates our trust, it seems much worse and even harder to comprehend, than when other people in society fail. Never-the-less, it doesn’t mean that we should abandon all respect for law enforcement, health care, education, or the church because people who work in those professions and vocations fail to live as Christ calls them to live. After all, the vast majority of people in those vocations, serve in a heroic and exemplary manner.

In Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus Christ described His Church, the Kingdom of Heaven, as being a “field of wheat and weeds,” showing that there would be good and bad, saints and sinners, and everyone in between, in the Church until the day when He returned to judge the nations. This means that, sadly, there will be members of His Church — including priests and bishops — who are notorious sinners. We can see this sad reality even at the very beginning of the Church in the person of the Apostle Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ to His enemies (Matthew 26:16-23 ; Luke 22:47-49), and Simon Peter, who denied the Lord three times (Matthew 26:34, 75).

Notice that even Christ’s own hand-picked followers committed scandalous wickedness! Even so, this did not negate or disprove the truth that Christ transmitted to the world through His Apostles (Mark 16:15). As Christ promised, in spite of the weakness and sinfulness — indeed, the scandal — caused by priest and other Catholics, “the gates of hell will not prevail against” the Church.

sdtouchton.webs.com/
Click to expand...
Add to this the story of Cain and Abel. What did the Lord do for Cain? Did he kill him? Did he allow others to kill him?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
sdtouchton said:
We all have heard stories about policemen, doctors, teachers, counselors, and priests that have betrayed a sacred trust. These individuals represent vocations we look to for guidance, hope, and help. We want to be able to trust them. But, when one of these people violates our trust, it seems much worse and even harder to comprehend, than when other people in society fail. Never-the-less, it doesn’t mean that we should abandon all respect for law enforcement, health care, education, or the church because people who work in those professions and vocations fail to live as Christ calls them to live. After all, the vast majority of people in those vocations, serve in a heroic and exemplary manner.

In Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus Christ described His Church, the Kingdom of Heaven, as being a “field of wheat and weeds,” showing that there would be good and bad, saints and sinners, and everyone in between, in the Church until the day when He returned to judge the nations. This means that, sadly, there will be members of His Church — including priests and bishops — who are notorious sinners. We can see this sad reality even at the very beginning of the Church in the person of the Apostle Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ to His enemies (Matthew 26:16-23 ; Luke 22:47-49), and Simon Peter, who denied the Lord three times (Matthew 26:34, 75).

Notice that even Christ’s own hand-picked followers committed scandalous wickedness! Even so, this did not negate or disprove the truth that Christ transmitted to the world through His Apostles (Mark 16:15). As Christ promised, in spite of the weakness and sinfulness — indeed, the scandal — caused by priest and other Catholics, “the gates of hell will not prevail against” the Church.

sdtouchton.webs.com/
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Jesus never got reports that Judas was molesting those in his charge. Nor did Jesus re-assign him to another location if he had heard of such an evil thing.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
So prepare yourselves. I think we’re talking of a fairly small number of priests here overall (since some have died, some are already in prison and some, believe it or not, are falsely accused themselves). . .but if we put the same amount of effort into chasing after the rapist family members and teachers etc., and started charging the same ‘price’ etc., we’d probably have to set aside a whole state and build a ginormous prison to hold all the guilty.
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Assuming we don’t just execute the lot of them. I believe it was a certain pope who proscribed that such offenders (of the priestly persuasion) have all their lands and possessions confiscated, their titles seized, and they themselves be burnt at the stake. Ah, but we’re an impure people. Did God say, “Stone that man, he must be punished for his crimes!” No, He said, “Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.”

Think of all the executed men as of late, killed for all the wrong reasons! And for that, the people are not purged of evil, but stained also by it! :rotfl:
 
whitewings said:
What are your view on all the priests in Ireland who abused children for decades.
What is a just punishment? What does the bible say?
I think they should be executed:thumbsup:. What are your views?
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Them, the bishops, and (in Ireland) the politicians, bishops, & religious.​

My blood boils every time I think about the impunity the bishops have enjoyed, in Ireland & the USA. A secular court would throw the book at a mere nobody who did such things: but be a member of a religious order in Ireland, or a bishop anywhere, & you can snap your fingers at justice.

The people who killed the child Victoria Climbie were dealt with - it is a pretty safe bet they will die in prison. That is as it should be. The same applies in the very recent case of Baby P. Both these children suffered atrocious injuries, like something from a concentration camp or worse. The law threw the book at those responsible - and rightly: those whoabuse and torture & children are beyond words. Both cases were English, & both were decided by the law of the land.

The CC is no mere nation, but the Holy Church of God. It has every right to look down its nose at godless England, for in the Church no abuse of the young could possibly happen. The thing is unthinkable. And if - to suppose the impossible - there were one or two such cases, without a doubt the Church would bend all its efforts to bringing the culprits to justice & punishing them very severely indeed. Which is exactly what has
happened.

Except that it has not. That is one of the worst horrors of the many horrors in this miserable business. It’s heart-rending, hideous, unbelievable, impossible to fit into the mind: it is impossible to think. The Church has behaved in a way that would disgrace the Mafia. They have a sense of justice - omerta is founded on justice of some kind - but the Church…that’s another story. Bernard Law is eligible to be among the voters in the next conclave. I can put up with a Pope who was in the Hitler Youth & tried very hard to avoid being involved - but I draw the line at a pimping cardinal :mad:

First Maciel’s victims were not heeded; then the victims of the paedophiles of 2002 had trouble being heeded; now the Irish paedophiles of 2009 have come to light. Where next ? When will the filth stop flowing ? How much more vileness is suppurating in the plague-spot that is Catholicism ? It badly needs lancing - & if the price of that is the dismantling of the Papacy, I’m all for it. The Papacy is not worth bothering with, if the price of that is the suppression of abuses. That is another scandal - “business as usual”: the Pope says a few words; & we are supposed to forget all about the filth, vileness, lies, misery, broken lives & shattered faith :mad::rolleyes: The victims won’t; they have to live with the results of what those bloody men have done. No structures are changed, no bishops are called on to pay for their crimes, no religious in Ireland will ever be charged, never mind tried, convicted & punished. Somuch for the holy & just Church of Rome, that obeys Christ & therefore does not scandalise the little ones :rolleyes:

The Bible does not talk about this kind of thing - maybe it was not considered that anyone would do this. Just as the early Romans had no penalty for treason; they could not imagine anyone would commit so black a crime.

Did you know there was a further scandal in all this ? Incredible, I know, but true. It is, that the payments for the crimes of the “religious” in Ireland come from - the tax-payer. Yes, you read that correctly. In Catholicism, it isn’t the paedophile who pays for the ruin and damage - it’s the ordinary tax-payer. Not only is the paedo religious exempt from punishment: others have the privilege of paying for the damage he caused. What a religion ! You couldn’t make this stuff up - & no-one would write this kind of thing into a novel; it’s too outrageously implausible. No publisher would look at it.

As the Sibyl tells Aeneas in Virgil:

**"…All dared a monstrous sin, and what they dared attained. **
**Nay, had I a hundred tongues, a hundred mouths, **
**and voice of iron, I could not sum up all the forms of crime, **

or rehearse all the tale of torments.”
Which is as good answer to your question as any - apart from the torments, which are conspicuous by their absence. Rome is going to have to invest in an awful lot of millstones.

That’s what I think - and I’m still seething. How those directly harmed must feel, God knows. God help them all.
 
How do you know?

And as for the reassignments. . .sigh. OK. Here goes again.

The vast number of cases which took place took place in a time in which the medical authorities–psychiatrists, psychologists, etc. looked upon pedophilia as treatable and curable. (They did the same for alcoholism too). And part of the treatment was that, after the behavioral therapy and the talk therapy and the aversion therapy and the Freudian/Jungian talk sessions etc. etc., when the person was ‘cured’, he was supposed to go off and ‘go on with life’. This, of course, fits in very well with established Christian teaching whereby we sin ‘70 x 7’, ask for forgiveness, are forgiven, etc.

Now, the medicos wanted the men to have a ‘fresh start’ at a new place that didn’t have all these ‘preconceived’ notions about them. After all, they were ‘cured’ now. They knew their limits. They needed to be exposed to the same lifestyle --that is, the same temptations–because all their therapy had given them these life plans, these strategies for coping, these tools to handle their problems, and they were going to show that they could use them.

So this is not a question of Bishop X looking at Fr. D --oh dear, Father D had a problem with abuse. Father D went off to a clinic, and Dr. Z says Fr.D has done all his therapy. Father D is SO sorry. Father D will not sin again. Father D needs a new chance.

Remember, we are now looking at events not in hindsight. . .we are back in a time before we KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. Think of being a Red Sox fan from 1919 to 2003. . .did the fan in 1919 think, what I am doing being a fan of this team? They aren’t going to win the series until 2004!!! No, for the Red Sox fan, every year was a new chance. Would you want to go back and insist that fans in 1950, or 1973, or 1986, shouldn’t even bother to watch a game because 'they won’t win this year?"

So far as Bishop X knows, Father D is cured. Dr. Zsaid so. Father D, theoretically, is no more liable to abuse (according to the accepted medical theories of the time) than Father A, B, or Q. . .none of whom has abused anyone. Why would there be a need to ‘warn’ people in the new venue of an abuse that, by the wisdom of the medicos, would NOT HAPPEN???
 
Notice how I carefully said earlier, “the majority.” There are undoubtedly cases where Bishop L (to pick a totally random letter :D) knew that Father G (likewise) had a problem. Not just once, but several times. Even if the medicos were saying "He’s all right’ (and by then, they were beginning to say, “Um, wait, maybe our ideas aren’t exactly working the way we were sure they would”), normal prudential people would be skeptical. And in those cases (which are a minority), where one can be absolutely, totally sure that said Bishop made a considered judgment (not a misguided one) but a considered judgment that, "well, it’s more important that we come off looking good and maybe he won’t abuse THIS time and if he does, well, I’m more important than some anonymous person). . . oh yes, that should be certainly considered as foul, evil, and deserving of the harshest possible jail sentence.
 
Tantum Ergo,

With all due respect, your argument fails on so many levels.

Your bible tells us there is nothing new under the sun.

Surely, we already know from the OT that, I personally feel is something that is X rated…
You are telling me catholics were dumb to sin, until say only 40 years ago or so?

Yet you ignore the scandals that are current? Less than 20 years old?

Are you sure you want to pursue this line of thinking?
 
Gottle of Geer, dismanteling the Papacy would not only not help to stop the pedofile problem but would increase all other problems in the world 10 fold. Christ established a lasting and eternal authority that satan would not triumph against. Pope Benedicts words about pedophile priests were strong and definately very just and true.

“We will absolutely exclude pedophiles from the sacred ministry,” he said. “…It is more important to have good priests than to have many priests.”

“No words of mine can describe the pain and harm inflicted by such abuse,”

Hes not trying to defend them or cover anything up. However if the church only focused on trying to fix the pedophile problem and that was all the Pope worried about then sure, it would probably get handled rather quickly but the problem is the True Church of Jesus has much more then that to worry about.

I’m not saying AT ALL that we should turn a blind eye but merely saying we can’t expect the Pope to put his full focus on the situation. And considering most pedophiles have mental issues wouldn’t it be better if a small tendancy is found to counsel them and try to help them WHILE closely monitoring them then to throw them into prison for the rest of their lives?

As for the death penalty, there is no justifiable reason in my eyes that anyone would deserve to be killed over anything in the United States. We have ample prison facilities were severe offenders can be tucked away for the rest of their lives. The only real reason the death penalty is used now adays is because of revenge though. The death penalty has been around forever and has NEVER stopped anyone from commiting any crimes. As I said earlier, most people who commit large crimes have mental issues. Life is God’s most precious gift, its not our job nor will it ever be our job to take it away.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Do you feel that way about all criminals? Are you opposed to the death penalty, and if so under what circumstances?
I think the catholic church has a pretty good answer on the death penalty, but it does make me wonder if there are other types of “death” that can be inflicted on a person as well.

Just thinking out loud here.
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All criminals. You are correct. No death penalty, unless it’s the only way to protect society (but with today’s high security prisons, it’s unnecessary)
 
How can anyone say they are pro-death penalty when stories like this are in the news.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090904/ap_on_re_us/us_exoneree_millionaires

Thomas McGowan’s journey from prison to prosperity is about to culminate in $1.8 million, and he knows just how to spend it: on a house with three bedrooms, stainless steel kitchen appliances and a washer and dryer.
“I’ll let my girlfriend pick out the rest,” said McGowan, who was exonerated last year based on DNA evidence after spending nearly 23 years in prison for rape and robbery.

23 years for rape, a crime I’ve heard many pro-death penalty people proclaim is worthy of death. He would have been executed long before those 23 years were up, which begs the question, how many people were executed who did NOTHING wrong?

If you say it’s not a high number, I’d counter that just ONE innocent man being put to death is an atrocity. At least, as this story shows, if he was wrongfully jailed he can get a reward and compensation for his time. If he’s already dead, there’s really nothing we can do to make it right in this life.

No justification for it. At all.
 
JR - with all due respect, I disagree. While the Church, primarily through Pope JP2, has made the statements that you have made, I don’t believe it was always so. I recall reading in older pre-V2 books that the Church didn’t condemn the death penalty in such a sweeping manner.

Even pre-16 acknowledged that we can have differing opinions on the death penalty (as opposed to abortion, etc). This does not reach the level of dogmatic/doctrinal status, although it is worthy of serious considerations by people that have the opinions I do. And yes, I have modified my thinking to a degree. (FWIW, if I were murdered, I would not want the killer(s) executed…)

I don’t want to sidetrack the thread into a DP debate, but I think that it’s important for all to understand that.

Given how the DP is used in other countries (eg China executing the head of the dept responsible for the poisoning in foods - tried, and then shot), I think our system is nowhere near that. The popes aren’t only speaking to the US in their statements, but we do tend to think the world revolves around us.
 
After reading most of the posts . I feel like I should say something. I was molested as a child( not by a Priest) and for years it was swept under the carpet. The problem I have here is not only the abuse that went on but the cover up and swept under the carpet by lots of Bishops for years. Now if the issue had been addressed instead hid how many more children would have been saved from the terrible crime. And trust me when I say that these people who do the molesting are never healed for to them it is not wrong. I speak with personal authority on this subject:(
 
whitewings said:
What are your view on all the priests in Ireland who abused children for decades.
What is a just punishment? What does the bible say?
I think they should be executed:thumbsup:. What are your views?
Click to expand...
**Either you are a non-Catholic using this issue to attack the Church, or you are a Catholic who needs some serious help.

Murder our Priests? Are you serious? What about the teachers who sexually molest 9% of all school children in the US? That’s over 500,000 children per year. What about all of the parents and family members who molest their children (40% of victims are molested at home)? What about all of the Johns who solicit sex from teen prostitutes? There are over 39,000,000 victims of sex abuse in the US today.

Why did you only single out Priests?

On the death certificate in capital punishment, ‘homicide’ is listed as the cause of death. Would you engage in such an orgy of murder, killing millions? Again, why did you only single out Priests, who represent 0.02% of all molesters of the 39 million victims of sex abuse?

You seem to care more about the identity of the assailant, than justice being equally meted out to all assailants. You don’t even concern yourself with asking what may be done for the victims.

Whatever your agenda, this thread is an obscenity equal in magnitude to the obscenity of children being molested. I worked with teen prostitutes and kids who were molested at Covenant House in Times Square for seven years in the 1980’s. I’ve walked the road with them, and while I experienced a number of thoughts and emotions, seeking to murder their molesters was never one of them. Perhaps my rage was tempered by the knowledge that most molesters were themselves victims as children. How this evil of abuse deadens the heart is a mystery. I sense the same in your question and the flippant use of a “thumbs up” symbol.

If you are a victim of abuse, murder is not the answer.

If you abhor abuse, murder is not the answer.

If you wish to purify the clergy, murder is not the answer.

If you hate the Church, murder is not the answer.

If you desire holiness and personal sanctity, murder is not the answer.

Now Let’s talk about YOUR sins, which merit YOU death in God’s eyes. Jesus instructs us that we will be shown mercy to the extent that we show others mercy. Better get yourself a first rate confessor friend. You seem to need one.

God Bless.
**
 
Gerard_Nadal said:
**

I worked with teen prostitutes and kids who were molested at Covenant House in Times Square for seven years in the 1980’s.**

Correction to my syntax. That sentence should have read as follows:

“I worked for seven years, in the 1980’s at Covenant House in Times Square, with teen prostitutes and kids who were molested.”

It reads very differently. Okay, now I’m taking myself out to the grammatical wood shed.:crying::crying::tsktsk::tsktsk:
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No death penalty, but a severe imprisonment. What about their bishops?
they covered up and transferred many to other parishes where they continued their abuses. Lets also remember the 99.9% of good priests who do their vocations day in and day out. Pray for them.
 
whitewings said:
What are your view on all the priests in Ireland who abused children for decades.
What is a just punishment? What does the bible say?
I think they should be executed:thumbsup:. What are your views?
Click to expand...
The Catechism answers this best.

Basically, “no” we should not kill anyone unless there is no other choice. All humans should have a chance at redemption. That is what Jesus would do.

WWJD
 
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