The priests who sexually abused children? Should they be executed?

[Albizzi]

**"And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” (Mt 23:34)

we are all horrible sinners and without the Infinite Mercy of Jesus, we would all be condemned to eternal damnation without parole.**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Jesus: “Those who scandalize these children, it would be better they were never born”
or: "Woe to those who scandalize these children, It would be better for them to be tied to a millstone and thrown into the sea.
Is the death penalty worse than staying forever in Hell?

I don’t judge them, I only quote what Jesus said about them.
In my opinion I believe the proximity of the death penalty would be helpful for these men to understand the size of their sin, to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Laicization does not take away a man’s priesthood. He remains a priest until death.

A great Christian wrote about as much. Saint Thomas Aquinas.

newadvent.org/summa/4082.htm#article6

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jesus: “Those who scandalize these children, it would be better they were never born”
or: "Woe to those who scandalize these children, It would be better for them to be tied to a millstone and thrown into the sea.
Is the death penalty worse than staying forever in Hell?

I don’t judge them, I only quote what Jesus said about them.
In my opinion I believe the proximity of the death penalty would be helpful for these men to understand the size of their sin, to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness.

27 But I say to you that hear: Love your enemies. Do good to them that hate you. 28 Bless them that curse you and pray for them that calumniate you. 29 And to him that striketh thee on the one cheek, offer also the other. And him that taketh away from thee thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every one that asketh thee: and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again. 31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner. 32 And if you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? For sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if you do good to them who do good to you, what thanks are to you? For sinners also do this. 34 And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what thanks are to you? For sinners also lend to sinners, for to receive as much. 35 But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest. For he is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

If any pray the Our Father and wish death to those that have hurt you or others then remember that God meets your forgiveness. So if you have none then you condemn yourself.

Love does not want others to be hurt and always forgives.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

God forgives us our sins and they are forgotten. We are so loved by God that He does not keep record of our wrongs. As a Christian we must do the same.

 

[PJM]

=whitewings-What are your view on all the priests in Ireland who abused children for decades.
What is a just punishment? What does the bible say?
I think they should be executed:thumbsup:. What are your views?

And so should those who deny God?

Take Gods name in vain?

Don’t go to Mass?

Don’t go to Confession?

Drink too much?

Aren’t chairatble?

Lie?

Steal?

Oh, and of course people who live in glass houses!

What does Jesus say about Judgement? "Judgement is MINE say’s the Lord! Besides living with the shame of their sins is much worse than death.

Dear God grant us understanding and mercy!

 

[otjm]

Though it wasn’t about a sin that caused so much harm, He said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, so execution is probably not the asnwer. That said, I support a life sentence for even one time pedophiles.

In the US, the vast majority of the sex abuse was not by pedophiles. Peodphiles have sexual contact with pre-pubescent children. The one in our archdiocese who had so many cases against him was shown to have moved on to the next boy when the current subject started growing pubic hair.

85%+ were in the category of ephibophiles, that is, those who have sexual contact with a pubescent child, as in, a teenager. Approximately 85% of the sexual abuse was by men (priests) with pubescent boys. Given that there were an abundance of pubescent girls around but the priests chose boys, one wonders why the bishops of the US are spending so much time, money and effort trying to determine what was the cause.

The cause was homosexuality, and the tendency of male adult homosexuals to have sexual contact with teenage boys. There are even terms for it; the boys are called “chickens” and the men “chicken hawks”. One only has to deal with teenage runaways to figure this out.

If we are going to discuss sexual abuse, it helps at the start to have some accuracy about which we are speaking. Most people are not familiar witht he terms, but the terms have specific meanings and a discussion about the issue, or really the multiple issues, proceeds better if we can define our terms and use them correctly.

Out of the remaining 15%, it was divided up between prepubescent children, and pubescent girls.

As to what to do with them, society needs to be made safe from predators. Early on, in the 80’s when this first started coming to the surface, there were still psychologists claining that they could “cure” individuals with such proclivities. The better evidence now is that most of them cannot be cured. Society still has not seemed to come to terms with this re: first offenders.

 

[JReducation]

I missed that, but yes, a formal one.

Yes, thank you for the excellent expansion of the point. What I’m getting at is that such a crime, both in the social and spiritual sense should not be punished by banishment from the church. We don’t kick out murderers, and while we can discuss which is worse, getting abused by a clergyman or being killed, the Church is about healing and reconciliation. That doesn’t mean allowing a priest to be in a position of ecclesiastical authority ever again, but logistically making him in effect a “lay” person.

The Church does not have the power or the authority to make a deacon, priest or bishop a lay person. The best that the Church can do is to grant that person a dispensation from celibacy and his promise of obedience to his bishop. This allows the dispensed cleric to live as if he were a lay man. Therefore, he can receive the sacraments and participate in the ministries of the laity except: reatreat work, teaching theology, spiritual direction, and any other limitations that the local bishop should impose. In our diocese a priest who is forced to accept a dispensation, this is called laicization, are not allowed to be lectors at mass, or extraordinary ministers of holy communion, because they are still priests. Therefore, they cannot be extraordianry ministers, when in fact, they are the ordinary ministers of the Eucharist. They cannot be lectors, because in fact they were ordained deacons. But that is up to the bishop.

The point is that the Church does not deny a fallen priest the right to remain Catholic or live as a Catholic. He must live as if he were a lay man, even though we know that he’s not lay. He’ll never be lay. We don’t have that kind of power. Christ denied that to the Church. The Church can confer the orders of deacon, presbyter and bishop, but cannot take them away.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maggiemay2u]

In the US, the vast majority of the sex abuse was not by pedophiles. Peodphiles have sexual contact with pre-pubescent children. The one in our archdiocese who had so many cases against him was shown to have moved on to the next boy when the current subject started growing pubic hair.

85%+ were in the category of ephibophiles, that is, those who have sexual contact with a pubescent child, as in, a teenager. Approximately 85% of the sexual abuse was by men (priests) with pubescent boys. Given that there were an abundance of pubescent girls around but the priests chose boys, one wonders why the bishops of the US are spending so much time, money and effort trying to determine what was the cause.

The cause was homosexuality, and the tendency of male adult homosexuals to have sexual contact with teenage boys. There are even terms for it; the boys are called “chickens” and the men “chicken hawks”. One only has to deal with teenage runaways to figure this out.

If we are going to discuss sexual abuse, it helps at the start to have some accuracy about which we are speaking. Most people are not familiar witht he terms, but the terms have specific meanings and a discussion about the issue, or really the multiple issues, proceeds better if we can define our terms and use them correctly.

Out of the remaining 15%, it was divided up between prepubescent children, and pubescent girls.

As to what to do with them, society needs to be made safe from predators. Early on, in the 80’s when this first started coming to the surface, there were still psychologists claining that they could “cure” individuals with such proclivities. The better evidence now is that most of them cannot be cured. Society still has not seemed to come to terms with this re: first offenders.

In addition to your fine work, may I add the fact that until the mid 1980’s, child molestation, in all its forms, was considered to be a treatable psychological disorder.

There was a general disgust in the criminal justice system, even by defense attorneys, in reviewing page after page of rap sheet convictions, followed by the words “deferred counseling” “probation:counseling”. The behavior had to be violent (yes, I know, it’s all violent–tell that to the courts and intelligentsia) and repetitive to get a person actually sent to prison, and even then, the term was generally less than that of an armed robbery or residential burglary. Return to teaching, pastoral, medical and even law enforcement positions, upon completion of misdemeanor probation, was common.

Up until the early 1990’s, The Church treated the priests in the generally accepted method of dealing with molesters. Then to their peril, they dragged their feet in the subsequent years. Once the mandatory reporting laws came out, all “counseling” bets were off, and the bishops had a legal responsibility to report anything they heard outside the seal. Bishops who ignored these laws were complicit in any wrongdoing that followed their failure.

In many dioceses, accused priests, who maintained their innocence, were thrown under the bus by bishops, who ordered them to settle or pay their own expenses. I know two priests personally, who were able to raise monies for their defense, and were exonerated. Many were not as fortunate to have tens of thousands in legal fees raised and were forced to settle.

On the West Coast, The Church has been singled out for punishment. Laws written to waive the statute of limitations for civil suits was designed to hit organized religion in general, the Catholic Church in particular. No such punishment for school districts, police agencies, fire departments, or other government entities.

While there is little sympathy for the offenders, the targeting of the Church as the breeder of all the ill is ridiculous. The deviates that sought sage harbor as priests represented a tiny number of the deviates who offended, regardless of the time frame. They should receive the same criminal penalty as any other molester. I’m personally an advocate of indeterminate sentencing.

 

[otjm]

In addition to your fine work, may I add the fact that until the mid 1980’s, child molestation, in all its forms, was considered to be a treatable psychological disorder.

There was a general disgust in the criminal justice system, even by defense attorneys, in reviewing page after page of rap sheet convictions, followed by the words “deferred counseling” “probation:counseling”. The behavior had to be violent (yes, I know, it’s all violent–tell that to the courts and intelligentsia) and repetitive to get a person actually sent to prison, and even then, the term was generally less than that of an armed robbery or residential burglary. Return to teaching, pastoral, medical and even law enforcement positions, upon completion of misdemeanor probation, was common.

Up until the early 1990’s, The Church treated the priests in the generally accepted method of dealing with molesters. Then to their peril, they dragged their feet in the subsequent years. Once the mandatory reporting laws came out, all “counseling” bets were off, and the bishops had a legal responsibility to report anything they heard outside the seal. Bishops who ignored these laws were complicit in any wrongdoing that followed their failure.

In many dioceses, accused priests, who maintained their innocence, were thrown under the bus by bishops, who ordered them to settle or pay their own expenses. I know two priests personally, who were able to raise monies for their defense, and were exonerated. Many were not as fortunate to have tens of thousands in legal fees raised and were forced to settle.

On the West Coast, The Church has been singled out for punishment. Laws written to waive the statute of limitations for civil suits was designed to hit organized religion in general, the Catholic Church in particular. No such punishment for school districts, police agencies, fire departments, or other government entities.

While there is little sympathy for the offenders, the targeting of the Church as the breeder of all the ill is ridiculous. The deviates that sought sage harbor as priests represented a tiny number of the deviates who offended, regardless of the time frame. They should receive the same criminal penalty as any other molester. I’m personally an advocate of indeterminate sentencing.

Yep. Spent 12 years in the pits; and the last case that sealed my decision to get out of practice was a sex abuse case where the mother failed to protect the boys from the step dad; and after the boys were removed, was subsequently taking the younger (3 year old) daughter with her to the prison to visit the yaehoo - who had forced the boys to simulate sexual acts on her when she was 18 months old. She was a sick woman, a weak (individual), and the system sucks.

 

[Xadriel]

They should be publically shamed and then beaten to death. The Jesuit order should be cancelled , they are the primary offenders. After the guildty priest is killed he should be damned . All sex offenders need to be excommunicate!

 

[Albizzi]

If any pray the Our Father and wish death to those that have hurt you or others then remember that God meets your forgiveness. So if you have none then you condemn yourself.

Love does not want others to be hurt and always forgives.

God forgives us our sins and they are forgotten. We are so loved by God that He does not keep record of our wrongs. As a Christian we must do the same.

Jack,
Your quotes are irrelevant with respect to mines.
1/ These priests are not my ennemies, they are my brothers.
2/ I Don’t wish them the death penalty, only Jesus clearly says so.
3/ In other times they were executed. Now our Society assesses that their guilt is not so serious and they no longer are.
4/ The Church always teached that there are cases where the Society is right in imposing the death penalty with the aim to protect itself against dangerous people. And the catholic judges in the past in any way never sinned in using the death penalty.
5/ I believe that if the death penalty was used back again, probably this would help them to repent, to beforgiven and have the hope to go to heaven.
Death penalty is a horrible thing, but a very light one in comparison with one’s eternity in Hell;

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jack,
Your quotes are irrelevant with respect to mines.
1/ These priests are not my ennemies, they are my brothers.
2/ I Don’t wish them the death penalty, only Jesus clearly says so.
3/ In other times they were executed. Now our Society assesses that their guilt is not so serious and they no longer are.
4/ The Church always teached that there are cases where the Society is right in imposing the death penalty with the aim to protect itself against dangerous people. And the catholic judges in the past in any way never sinned in using the death penalty.
5/ I believe that if the death penalty was used back again, probably this would help them to repent, to beforgiven and have the hope to go to heaven.
Death penalty is a horrible thing, but a very light one in comparison with one’s eternity in Hell;

I think I should quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church at this point but I am at work and even though I have access to an online Catechism it does not have the reference for the area where it speaks about the Death Penalty. But I know it says that if society can jail them and provide means to help them that we should not use the Death Penalty because the Death Penalty is a last resort.

In times past it may have been a legitimate option but I think more than not it was not.

The USA and many other places can afford to jail and thus safeguard society from predators like Pedaphiles. Since that is the case, the Death Penalty is not an option.

 

[Shoshana]

The Church does not have the power or the authority to make a deacon, priest or bishop a lay person. The best that the Church can do is to grant that person a dispensation from celibacy and his promise of obedience to his bishop. This allows the dispensed cleric to live as if he were a lay man. Therefore, he can receive the sacraments and participate in the ministries of the laity except: reatreat work, teaching theology, spiritual direction, and any other limitations that the local bishop should impose. In our diocese a priest who is forced to accept a dispensation, this is called laicization, are not allowed to be lectors at mass, or extraordinary ministers of holy communion, because they are still priests. Therefore, they cannot be extraordianry ministers, when in fact, they are the ordinary ministers of the Eucharist. They cannot be lectors, because in fact they were ordained deacons. But that is up to the bishop.

The point is that the Church does not deny a fallen priest the right to remain Catholic or live as a Catholic. He must live as if he were a lay man, even though we know that he’s not lay. He’ll never be lay. We don’t have that kind of power. Christ denied that to the Church. The Church can confer the orders of deacon, presbyter and bishop, but cannot take them away.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

We have one particular case in our diocese of a priest who molested teenagers. They also found much pornography of children on his computer. He was sent to Bristish Columbia (one of those provinces) and a lady saw him there and knew him and reported him. He was made to leave and come back in our diocese. He is laicized although he lives with his mother. He was sentenced to house arrest. After that , he was sent to a center that takes care of priests who are alcoholic, etc for psychiatric treatment. They said he was ‘cured’.He is in anguish and feels there is no hope in him getting back his faculties. With what the Pope has said, chances are he will never receive his faculties back. Our bishop is adament.

That being said, and I know this priest, I am compassionate and i do pray for him. On the other hand, this whole thing just disgusts me. Why are men attracted to pubescent or pre-busecent children. The damage to the child is so deep and I know, from experience, that this child will NEVER be the same. Now, having his faculties taken away, this certainly could be part of his reparation and may be so for the rest of his life. He is relatively young when he was laicized. He does love his priesthood, but he made a big mistake. The child he molested probably lost all faith and love for the church. What a crime!

Father Benedict Groeschel himself has said that any person who molests children and or/ pubescent children can NEVER be cured…they can only be treated so it does not become an obsession. Their deviation is basically put on a shelf as it were.

And I keep asking why does this happen? I just can’t wrap my head around it…

 

[otjm]

They should be publically shamed and then beaten to death. The Jesuit order should be cancelled , they are the primary offenders. After the guildty priest is killed he should be damned . All sex offenders need to be excommunicate!

Um, there were other orders who were active; Christian Brothers comes to mind… The Jesuits may have their own set of problems, but I don’t know that they can be singled out in this issue.

 

[otjm]

Shoshana;5737359C:

And I keep asking why does this happen? I just can’t wrap my head around it…

It is perhaps one of the more graphic examples of the results of the sin of Adam. Sometimes we acknowledge Original Sin intellectually, but fail to have an integrated understanding of how absolutely horrible sin is, and how broken the world is.

Paul tells us Christhas conquered sin; and He has; but that perfection is not yet accomplished in individuals.

 

[Albizzi]

I think I should quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church at this point but I am at work and even though I have access to an online Catechism it does not have the reference for the area where it speaks about the Death Penalty. But I know it says that if society can jail them and provide means to help them that we should not use the Death Penalty because the Death Penalty is a last resort.

In times past it may have been a legitimate option but I think more than not it was not.

The USA and many other places can afford to jail and thus safeguard society from predators like Pedaphiles. Since that is the case, the Death Penalty is not an option.

I am not in favour of the death penalty, too. But there are a few cases where there is no other option left. In particular for some dangerous multirecidivist psychopaths who were proven to be a non withstandable threat to the lifes of prison guards or innocent people in the case they succeed to escape from jail. The probability they kill again is far from zero.
While the help the Society may bring them is almost hopeless.
Yes the death penalty is a last resort option but it cannot be avoided.

Anyway I am afraid we are wrong putting in balance the death penalty and the eternal torments of Hell. Killing the body is one thing, but killing the soul is another one that we Christian have the duty to hinder by all means. To help rapers and murderers to come back in a right life is OK, but to help them to weigh up the seriousness of their sin and ask Jesus forgiveness is far better.

 

[JReducation]

We have one particular case in our diocese of a priest who molested teenagers. They also found much pornography of children on his computer. He was sent to Bristish Columbia (one of those provinces) and a lady saw him there and knew him and reported him. He was made to leave and come back in our diocese. He is laicized although he lives with his mother. He was sentenced to house arrest. After that , he was sent to a center that takes care of priests who are alcoholic, etc for psychiatric treatment. They said he was ‘cured’.He is in anguish and feels there is no hope in him getting back his faculties. With what the Pope has said, chances are he will never receive his faculties back. Our bishop is adament.

That being said, and I know this priest, I am compassionate and i do pray for him. On the other hand, this whole thing just disgusts me. Why are men attracted to pubescent or pre-busecent children. The damage to the child is so deep and I know, from experience, that this child will NEVER be the same. Now, having his faculties taken away, this certainly could be part of his reparation and may be so for the rest of his life. He is relatively young when he was laicized. He does love his priesthood, but he made a big mistake. The child he molested probably lost all faith and love for the church. What a crime!

Father Benedict Groeschel himself has said that any person who molests children and or/ pubescent children can NEVER be cured…they can only be treated so it does not become an obsession. Their deviation is basically put on a shelf as it were.

And I keep asking why does this happen? I just can’t wrap my head around it…

I feel for this priest and I realize that he needs a great deal of spiritual healing, not just psychological. But I also understand his bishop’s position. I would never give him his faculties again. Not giving him his faculties is not going to cure his problem. Let’s get that right. But it will protect the Church.

In this situation, if you can’t cure the problem, you protect the Church and those children whom the Church serves, who would be his potential victims.

For those who want to see the program adopted by all the parishes in the USA and who may want to do some of the readings so they can be more alert and prepared to handle possible abuse, I suggest that you go to

virtusonline.org/virtus/index.cfm?NextURL=/index.cfm&msg=

This organization currently serves every diocese, school and parish in the USA.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[maggiemay2u]

Yep. Spent 12 years in the pits; and the last case that sealed my decision to get out of practice was a sex abuse case where the mother failed to protect the boys from the step dad; and after the boys were removed, was subsequently taking the younger (3 year old) daughter with her to the prison to visit the yaehoo - who had forced the boys to simulate sexual acts on her when she was 18 months old. She was a sick woman, a weak (individual), and the system sucks.

We could probably exchange some bizarre tales…

 

[maggiemay2u]

We have one particular case in our diocese of a priest who molested teenagers. They also found much pornography of children on his computer. He was sent to Bristish Columbia (one of those provinces) and a lady saw him there and knew him and reported him. He was made to leave and come back in our diocese. He is laicized although he lives with his mother. He was sentenced to house arrest. After that , he was sent to a center that takes care of priests who are alcoholic, etc for psychiatric treatment. They said he was ‘cured’.He is in anguish and feels there is no hope in him getting back his faculties. With what the Pope has said, chances are he will never receive his faculties back. Our bishop is adament.

That being said, and I know this priest, I am compassionate and i do pray for him. On the other hand, this whole thing just disgusts me. Why are men attracted to pubescent or pre-busecent children. The damage to the child is so deep and I know, from experience, that this child will NEVER be the same. Now, having his faculties taken away, this certainly could be part of his reparation and may be so for the rest of his life. He is relatively young when he was laicized. He does love his priesthood, but he made a big mistake. The child he molested probably lost all faith and love for the church. What a crime!

Father Benedict Groeschel himself has said that any person who molests children and or/ pubescent children can NEVER be cured…they can only be treated so it does not become an obsession. Their deviation is basically put on a shelf as it were.

And I keep asking why does this happen? I just can’t wrap my head around it…

Sounds like a guy crying for a cloistered monastic post in the desert, doesn’t it?

Father Groeschel is correct, there is a virtual “no cure” rate for someone who has a demonstrated pathology of this sort. He needs placement in an area where he will not have contact, direct or indirect, with children. No access to computers, cameras or other recording devices. No proximity to parks or schools, or places where children congregate. The list of “no’s” goes on forever. Unless willing to go and stay for life in some type of isolated modern day lepers’ colony, true molesters should probably remain in prison/mental facility until they are suitable for placement in a home for the bed-ridden and infirmed.

Absent continuous direct supervision, placement in the community, with all its stressors, will most likely result in the individual reoffending. Hopefully mom is monitoring his activities. If mom passes, he should be watched closely, IMHO, he will be in severe danger of reoffending.

 

[JReducation]

Sounds like a guy crying for a cloistered monastic post in the desert, doesn’t it?

A monastery is not a place where you go to get away from the problems of life, but where you go to encounter life on its own terms. That’s first.

Second, a monastery is for those who have been called by Christ to this axalted state of mystical union with him.

Third, it sounds like a man who is ill and is crying to go home to his ministry, but he can’t. He’s not well enough to do so.

You’re right, there is no guarrantee that he will not fall again. But then there is no guarrantee for any person with an obsessive mental illness, is there? These people need our prayers and our friendship, without exposing them to the dangers that can hurt them and innocent people. It’s a very hard thing to deal with, for the indvidual, the bishop and his family. We don’t have to say how hard it is for his victims. That speaks for itself.

I wish there were a ministry for people like this. Anyone want to start a new religious congregation?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF