The primacy of Rome in the Early Church-help needed

[Sherlock]

I am having a discussion with a Lutheran who says that the Church Fathers, pre-Constantine, did hold the Church of Rome to be authorative. I gave him Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, and pointed out the very authorative laguage used. He countered with: “You forget one thing…church of Corinth were under direct jurisdiction of church in Rome at the time. So your statement about submission to Clement as his exhortations to Corinthians as proof of his primacy over whole church is missing the point he was making to them, as well as the historical context and the place he was writing to.”

Do any of you know of any examples, pre-Constantine, that shows other early Churches recognizing Rome?

 

[tmitchell2]

Sherlock:

I am having a discussion with a Lutheran who says that the Church Fathers, pre-Constantine, did hold the Church of Rome to be authorative. I gave him Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, and pointed out the very authorative laguage used. He countered with: “You forget one thing…church of Corinth were under direct jurisdiction of church in Rome at the time. So your statement about submission to Clement as his exhortations to Corinthians as proof of his primacy over whole church is missing the point he was making to them, as well as the historical context and the place he was writing to.”

Do any of you know of any examples, pre-Constantine, that shows other early Churches recognizing Rome?

This probably won’t help you out much, but I read somewhere that the Apostle John deferred to the Pope at the time over Easter Liturgical practices. I don’t remember the Pope’s name, but he was the only Syrian Pope. I’ll try to find the source, but it anyone out there can give more specifics, please chime in.

 

[SteveG]

First things first. Never take anything for granted. How in the world does he know that Corinth was under Roman jurisdiction? Does he mean the city of Corinth was under the Roman Empire’s jurisdiction? If so, what does that have to do with anything. The early Christian community which was outlawed wouldn’t have necessarily (or even likely) followed Imperial Roman jurisdiction lines. If that’s not what he means, ask him to back up this claim. Really, what the h-e double toothpicks is he talking about. I suspect he is bluffing you.

In any event, there are lots of good quotes from ther early (pre-Constantine era) which show this. Check out some of Catholic Answers very own articles for a sampling…
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
…These links have just a sampling and snippets at that. If you need a more in depth look, get hold of The Faith of the Early Fathers (Volume 1) by William A. Jurgens. You can purchase this online (at Amazon and other places). This has the major writings of most of the Early Church Fathers. You’d have to go through them all to find every quote indicating the Primacy of Rome, but believe me there are plenty of them, and most are fairly unambigous. In particular read Saint Irenaeus’ 'Against heresies (dated between 180 and 199). He is quite explicit about the role of the Roman Church and it’s primacy. Also Saint Ignatius of Antioch’s letters to the church’s that he wrote on the way to his martydom. While not as explicit, His address to the Church at Rome makes it clear that there is a distinction between it and the other churches. The list goes on and on. . You may even be able to find both the ones I mentioned above online. If so, I can point you to the specific sections I mention. Just lemme know.Hopefully this will help you get started. I’ll keep digging for more specific examples

God Bless

Steve

 

[Lorarose]

Patrick Madrid’s Pope Fiction is a good source for this type of discussion.
I believe it may also be available online although I don’t have the link handy. A google search should find it.

 

[Apologia100]

Here are some quotes that may help you out.

“Therefore shall you write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty” (Hermas - The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

“to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” (**Ignatius of Antioch ** - Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

“The Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Tertullian - Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (**Irenaeus ** - Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).

 

[weunice]

I have combined the two authority of the Pope pages at Catholic.com into one

sirnick.mrdataesq.net/~weunice/dist_chart.php?chart=rome.txt

Eventually I will replace those with the quotes from the New Advent site and supplement what is at Catholic Answers with information from elsewhere. That is, unless it obscures clarity at which point I will mention translation differences and possibly add the quote from Jurgens …

 

[weunice]

Silmarillion:

You may even be able to find both the ones I mentioned above online. If so, I can point you to the specific sections I mention. Just lemme know.Hopefully this will help you get started. I’ll keep digging for more specific examples

They are certainly online

Against Heresies is here - newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm

Ignatius of Antioch can be found on the main page. Be warned though. Many Protestants will label the Ignatian letters as spurious. According to what I had read previously, I thought such opinion had long passed (see Jurgens notes on the Ignatian letters) but apprently there are some Protestants today who still hold this opinion.

newadvent.org/fathers/

You will do better with some particularly anti-Catholic persons using other ECF’s … Then again, some won’t even listen to that, preferring to label all ECF’s as “uninspired” … They are history though … Never fear. There are tons of citations for you to go through.

 

[RBushlow]

Sherlock:

I am having a discussion with a Lutheran who says that the Church Fathers, pre-Constantine, did hold the Church of Rome to be authorative. I gave him Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, and pointed out the very authorative laguage used. He countered with: "You forget one thing…church of Corinth were under direct jurisdiction of church in Rome at the time.

Here is a link to a number of early writings:
web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm

St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311 A.D.):
Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr’s death.
Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)

St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):
Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 387):
Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, ‘Blessed art thou, &c.’ This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty …even denying the Lord." (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom)
Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe. (Chrysostom, T. iii Hom).
(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ …he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)
And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren, …and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, ‘How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,’ this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world. (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii)

There are thousands and thousands of instances.