The pro-life common sense clincher

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Doc Keele

Agreed, argument ad numerum is a logical fallacy. But that’s what common sense means, what the majority of people feel is right. So you realise now you can’t appeal to commonsense!

Argument ad numerum
is not necessarily a fallacy. If you tell a child that everyone in the world knows that what goes up must come down, you have presented the child with a good reason to believe it to be so. In the field of science, peer evaluation is an important element of establishing the believability of a proposition. Without peer evaluation the scientist is left hanging and twisting in the wind. So the “common sense” of a proposition is established, because the “common sense” finds the proposition eminently reasonable.

However, when I use the term “common sense,” I’m not using it in that context. I’m using it in the sense that a thing is evidently true, and everybody should be able to see it as true (unless they have been fooled into thinking it is not true). The “fooling” has indeed been accomplished by the media, by academia, by the leftist propaganda machine, by the feminists, by the hedonists, by the abortionists, by everyone who has a stake in the matter or has been so fully conditioned by all of the above that he cannot see the truth because he is wearing the blinders that prevent common sense.

In that sense I think Lincoln meant that sooner or later the common mass of humanity at some point cannot be fooled all of the time. That is when common sense returns and the blinders will fall away.

And that takes time, effort, hope, and courage for those who believe in common sense:

We do not kill our children.
 
NB self-determination is applicable to individuals too
ok, then why should this situation be any different then numerous other situations where a persons “self-determination” is restricted for the benefits of others or society as a whole?

further.

i dont see a distinction between a fetus and 17 year old that would make one a human being, and the other not a human being.

if it seems obvious to you, then clue me in.

as to the common sense clincher, it seems obvious to me that there is no basis for distiction betweena human not yet born and one who is.

that distinction is what i want the person playing devils advocate to provide.
 
Charlemagne II;6321194]Doc Keele
*That you can reasonably differentiate betweeen the status of the foetus and an 17 year old? *
They both carry the same DNA. They are both children of God. They both have a destiny to fulfill. The only difference is that the unborn child has more destiny to fulfill than the seventeen year old. The crime against the unborn child is even greater, because the child’s **entire life **is taken with no means of defending himself (herself) from bloody slaughter.
The Court made a classification with the early fetus(in order to promote multiple policy goals)----the women has the duty to protect it—society can help in anyway except with its police power.

Charlemagne—champion the unborn is admirable. Just know the Court decided the police power of govt would not be used in the early going. God Bless
 
wsp - I’ve provided the distinction between the foetus and the newborn above
the foetus/mother situation is different on the facts from the other situations
clearly not everyone will agree that the differences are enough to justify exceptional treatment for abortion

charlemagne
argumentum ad numerum IS a logical fallacy
if something is evidently true, then prove it
intuition is a guide to moral matters, but not everyone will have the same intuition as you
 
The Church says you can’t kill or cooperate in killing an innocent human being - no exceptions. Correct me if I’m wrong.
In Sophie’s Choice, if Sophie makes no choice, both the children die. Making no choice is the option that she must make according to the moral absolutism of the Church, which means both children must die rather than one.
Sophie’s choice is to save one of her children, not kill one. The choice to kill is made by the man with the gun.
 
Worthy5

Charlemagne—champion the unborn is admirable. Just know the Court decided the police power of govt would not be used in the early going.

I know that. I think everybody knows that. The Court was wrong and the members lacked common sense who voted in Roe v Wade.

What is needed is to restore common sense, which you may have noticed is a rare commodity today even among our highest rulers.

Who would have thought 50 years ago that an organization composed of professionals from all walks of life, NAMBLA, would have been in favor of legazing sex between adults and children. Was that common sense?

Who would have thought that some Catholic bishops would ever defend the perversions of priests who sexually exploited children and transfer them from parish to parish so they could continue their exploitation? Was that common sense?

Who would have thought that marriage was ever intended to be lawful between members of the same sex? Was that common sense?

In a society that is bereft of common sense, there is a long way to go in restoring it. In the natural order of things, common sense should be in plentiful supply. Today, not only is it not, but the perversion of it is.
 
Sophie’s choice is to save one of her children, not kill one. The choice to kill is made by the man with the gun.
OK, what about the Sam and the Indians thought experiment then?
Focussing too much on the specifics often misses the point of the thought experiment.
 
Doc Keele

*charlemagne
argumentum ad numerum IS a logical fallacy
if something is evidently true, then prove it
intuition is a guide to moral matters, but not everyone will have the same intuition as you *

You’re asking me to prove to you that we should not kill our children? Whew! :rolleyes:
 
maybe this is why you haven’t found the persuasive argument you want, because you don’t actually it should be necessary to persuade anyone that you’re right???

just a thought:shrug:

you’re just interested in rhetoric
 
I personally think the best evidence is a high-resolution sonogram. Pro-aborts absolutely HATE having to view a picture of a baby in utero, and they seem to uniformly hate laws which require that someone be shown access to a sonogram before they can abort. Why? Because a child knows what they won’t admit - that the picture is of a baby.
I haven’t read all the posts…not even on page 1. I quote this because I was thinking along the same lines, but one of those graphic pictures of a murdered baby. I don’t actually recall seeing one but could imagine it would be awful from a description or descriptions I heard.

Anyway, pictures aren’t the only way and maybe different things convince different people even at different times but I was thinking:

“A picture is worth a thousand words.”

peace
 
“A picture is worth a thousand words.”

Yes, and after seeing the picture of a butchered child ex utero, you don’t need any other argument.
 
Pro-lifers really need to get beyond the following argument:
(1) A fetus is a person
(2) It is wrong to intentionally kill a person
(3) Abortion is intentionally killing a fetus
(4) Therefore, abortion is wrong.

It simply doesn’t consider all of the complexities of the abortion dilemma and will have us running around in circles, pounding our fists on the table. For example, as Doc has mentioned, abortion is not only about the fetus’ right to life, but the mother’s right to her body. While some might do a simple calculus and say: “the right to life is greater than the right to one’s body, therefore the right to life will always prevail,” this just isn’t the case.

Consider a scenario where all you need to survive is the healing touch of a doctor who lives across the world. If he does not touch you, you will surely die. But do you have the right to use his body? Does he have a duty to save you? It’s not so clear here, is it?

So, now that we’ve established that the simple calculus is off, we need to find (as pro-lifers) a reason why the fetus should have a right to his mother’s body in secular, legal, and philosophical terms. The thought experiment that I have tried to develop with American “hit and run” laws (above) is one way of getting there. Please read it, respond, and try to push the dialogue forward. I posit that the relationship between mother and the conceived child is the same as “the rendered helpless” relationship, which is already recognized in American law. This creates a duty on behalf of the mother to render bodily assistance to her helpless child. “Hit and run” laws question the wisdom of “my body, my choice.”

While “parents should not kill their children,” may be a “pro-life clincher” is assumes far to much to persuade. Once we establish that the right to life in the case of abortion outweighs the right to bodily autonomy, we can go back to the personhood inquiry and try to flesh it out in greater detail.
 
Well said, Cat.

If people don’t think they need to make any further effort than continually restate the argument Cat recounted, then they will never get very far in persuading people to oppose abortion. It’s no good assuming that everyone who is pro-choice is unprincipled and therefore resistant to moral reasoning.
 
Yes, it is. You are positing a limitation of the government, and the previous poster and I would like to know how far you are willing to take that]
No that is not the title to the thread. The thread is asking a legal pro-life " clincher " ------it has been demonstrated that one does not exist----if " common sense " means a definitive winning argument.

It does not matter how far this poster will take the policy of " limited govt" it only matters how far the Court takes it. 🙂
 
=Charlemagne II;6321882]Worthy5
Charlemagne—champion the unborn is admirable. Just know the Court decided the police power of govt would not be used in the early going.
I know that. I think everybody knows that. The Court was wrong and the members lacked common sense who voted in Roe v Wade.
What is needed is to restore common sense, which you may have noticed is a rare commodity today even among our highest rulers.
Who would have thought 50 years ago that an organization composed of professionals from all walks of life, NAMBLA, would have been in favor of legazing sex between adults and children. Was that common sense?
Who would have thought that some Catholic bishops would ever defend the perversions of priests who sexually exploited children and transfer them from parish to parish so they could continue their exploitation? Was that common sense?
Who would have thought that marriage was ever intended to be lawful between members of the same sex? Was that common sense?
In a society that is bereft of common sense, there is a long way to go in restoring it. In the natural order of things, common sense should be in plentiful supply. Today, not only is it not, but the perversion of it is.
Define " common sense". 😃 Look Charlemagne it is not about morality-----who is disagrees there—it is about how govt police power is to be used.
 
Has anyone ever found an approach to explaining the pro-life position that would leave the pro-choice advocates without a leg to stand on? I mean a *really convincing case *that can stop all discussion dead in its tracks because the pro-choicers have no answer?
There is no one perfect argument. Pray, fast, and keep putting the truth out there in a charitable way.

The old saying goes the truth will only be received to the degree one is open to receiving what is true.
 
=fix;6322207]There is no one perfect argument. Pray, fast, and keep putting the truth out there in a charitable way.
The old saying goes the truth will only be received to the degree one is open to receiving what is true.
I agree Fix. Just do not use the govt police power in the process. 🙂
 
Worthy5

Just do not use the govt police power in the process.

Explain why the government police power is to be used to prevent a born baby from being murdered, but not an unborn baby?

This is going to be interesting!
 
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