The pro-life common sense clincher

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Well, the Court did not see the early fetus as a " person" entitled to that protection. If you do not like it—go amend the Constitution.
And yet the status of personhood as such does not prevent protection from being granted to living beings. There are laws that protect bald eagles from being killed, without them being granted the status of persons. And state laws previously governing abortion did not prohibit all abortion. What the court did was to remove the ability of states and the people to legislate in this area.

Since abortion is not in the Constitution, that ability ought not to have been removed from the states, but rather left up to them. Let us pass law in the old fashioned way, through the legislative branches.
 
Worthy5

*Well, the Court did not see the early fetus as a " person" entitled to that protection. If you do not like it—go amend the Constitution. *

You are, as always, evading the topic of this thread. The topic is not whether the Court found the early fetus to be a person, but whether it is or is not common sense that Blackmun should arbitrarily pick a moment during the development of the child in the womb when it is not a person and then becomes a person. And more especially, whether it is common sense that we should have the legal right to kill our own children.

Roe v Wade defies common sense, and that was pointed out in the Court’s minority opinion. Yes, the minority failed to carry the legal issue, but White and Renqhuist did assert the principle of common sense, which the majority (and especially Blackmun) lacked.

I see the Peterson case has baffled some of you. Is it *common sense *that it is legal for butchers to kill babies in the womb, but Scott Peterson should be convicted for a double homicide? Please explain why that is common sense.

I know you are all tired of hearing about common sense. There is so little of it to offer on your side of the debate. But that is the title of this thread, so please stop trying to suppress the topic of common sense. It is the single argument that none of you has addressed, and you all seem intent on ignoring. 🤷
 
Charlemagne II;6357910]Worthy5
The topic is not whether the Court found the early fetus to be a person
Sure it is, because that is part of the Pro-choice reasoning.
I know you are all tired of hearing about common sense.
Give us a working definition here.😃
 
Take your " metaphysical " debate and the " normative " standpoint up with the Court. The Court stated why it did not count the early fetus as a “person.” Good Luck
And this is the pro abortion stance. The court said so. Regardless of any connection to ultimate truth.
 
It’s entirely accurate fix. I have stated and explained via thought experiments like the unconscious violinist that the pro-choice position does not have to assume that the foetus is not a human being or is a different class of person.
It’s easily verified.
Charlesmagne has never even understood what my position is:shrug:
But, the premise of the so-called experiment is not equivalent to being pregnant. It really cannot prove your point.
 
Worthy5

Give us a working definition here

You need a working definition of common sense?

Produce any dictionary definition if you like, since I doubt you’ll accept mine.

Common sense should include reasoning that is self evident and does not require specialized knowledge or training to develop. Common sense is a given; we rely on our common sense in most of our daily tasks. You would not, for example, hitch your cart to the front of your horse, unless you lacked common sense.

Or, here it comes!

You would not kill your own child.

Unless you are a savage. But the Constitution exists to protect us from savagery (that should be common sense), except for the savagery of the butcher who tears a baby limb from limb and crushes it head while still in the womb. That is not a common sense provision of the United States Constitution. The minority on the court in Roe v Wade said so. The minority were right. The majority produced a decision that has snuffed out 50 million lives, 50 million future workers, 50 million future voters, 50 millions souls that were entitled to work out their own destiny rather than be executed in the womb by permission of Blackmun and Co.
 
Worthy:
Give us a working definition here.😃
I will give you one from the last pope:
Although times change and knowledge increases, it is possible to discern a core of philosophical insight within the history of thought as a whole. Consider, for example, the principles of non-contradiction, finality and causality, as well as the concept of the person as a free and intelligent subject, with the capacity to know God, truth and goodness. Consider as well certain fundamental moral norms which are shared by all. These are among the indications that, beyond different schools of thought, there exists a body of knowledge which may be judged a kind of spiritual heritage of humanity. It is as if we had come upon an implicit philosophy, as a result of which all feel that they possess these principles, albeit in a general and unreflective way. Precisely because it is shared in some measure by all, this knowledge should serve as a kind of reference-point for the different philosophical schools. Once reason successfully intuits and formulates the first universal principles of being and correctly draws from them conclusions which are coherent both logically and ethically, then it may be called right reason or, as the ancients called it, orthós logos, recta ratio
 
Worthy5

Take your " metaphysical " debate and the " normative " standpoint up with the Court. The Court stated why it did not count the early fetus as a “person.” Good Luck

More evasion. When you are boxed in, you tend to reply that we should take it up with the Court. If you believe the Court is right, you should be able to add to Blackmun’s argument, not merely cite it as infallible and eternal law.

We have answered you on every front.

You have answered us hardly on any front except to cite Blackmun ad nauseam. :rolleyes:
 
Doc: Thanks. I try to do my part. I get so frustrated with the rhetoric on both sides of the fence. They are grounded in valid concepts, but never fleshed out. And the two sides are usually arguing different parts of the multi-step analysis. It’s an emotional issue, and I think that our professions let us step back from emotion to evaluate not only what is “good,” but why that is the case. I feel strongly, but those feelings will not persuade.

Char: Please read my post (which supports your position), and you might understand a bit better where Doc is coming from. This is, essentially, a multi-step analysis. The “don’t kill your children” part is one important step. But, it does not get you all of the way there. Please don’t see me as some heartless academic who does not care for children. I greatly oppose abortion, but I seek to understand the full arguments. There is some reason behind the other side’s intuition.

Worthy: Thanks for the go-ahead. Perhaps I will argue before the Court one day. When it’s looking to re-evaluate a doctrine, it is usually more receptive to normative arguments. Descriptive arguments are hogwash without a normative component.
I think it is a mistake to chalk up all this to emotionalism. It is true not every argument is presented in a way that would be acceptable to many academics, yet I have only found here criticisms that say one wants such “proof” yet they themselves have not offered anything substantial.
 
fix

I think it is a mistake to chalk up all this to emotionalism.

Outrage is difficult to avoid when you have seen an actual abortion. I suspect most of the pro-choicers cannot get beyond their armchair philosophizing because they have never seen an abortion, not even a video. If they had, I don’t think they could stand the thought of defending abortion as a human right rather than see it as a crime against humanity.

As Bill Bennet said, our culture has become decadent because we are no longer capable of outrage. And as Burke said, “all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing” … which means turn over and go back to sleep.

We are truly suffering through a dictatorship of relativism.
 
I think it is a mistake to chalk up all this to emotionalism. It is true not every argument is presented in a way that would be acceptable to many academics, yet I have only found here criticisms that say one wants such “proof” yet they themselves have not offered anything substantial.
You’re very right, and I am sorry if I painted it that way at all. I am only trying to explain the frustration that each side is feeling: it is because they are addressing different steps of a multi-step analysis, and working from a different analytical starting point. Emotion may be a factor, but that certainly isn’t what this is about.

If I was one of the posters that you were referring to, I’d be happy to reiterate any of my substantive critiques of the normative pro-choice arguments.
 
Worthy: it’s nice to see you finally fleshing out your arguments. However, you still haven’t explained why (except, “because the Supreme Court says so”) “the concept of limited government” (and expansive federal control) ought to apply in the case of an abortion. I read and interpret judicial opinions for a living. If I want to know the current status of the law, I can figure that out myself. What we’re talking about here, however, is how things ought to be, not how they currently are. There’s a big difference between normative and descriptive argument.

The concept of limited government is a nice one, indeed. However, what you must understand is that these concepts are to be grounded in some reasoning or systematic philosophy.
Worthy5 does not need me to answer for him. However, as I’ve noted in other threads, this issue is one that I don’t believe will ever be reconciled. The positions of each side are just too polar. Consider, for example, the following response by the Association for Objective Law, in response to the Supreme Court’s 2002 Webster decision. I believe their response provides the rationale you are seeking from the other side.

*Roe v. Wade is right in its result, but dangerously wrong in its reasoning. Roe v. Wade is correct in its conclusion that a fetus has no rights and that a woman has the right to determine whether or not to abort her pregnancy. But Roe v. Wade is wrong insofar as it holds that “state interests” justify interference with the woman’s right and that, when the state so desires, it may commandeer her body either for her supposed benefit or the benefit of a fetus.

In some 37 pages of discussion on the substantive issues in Roe v. Wade, the Court spent barely three pages in discussion of the fundamental issue: the nature of the right to abortion. Much more attention was given to how and when this right may and should be limited to further the “state’s interest” in the health of the woman and in potential human life. On the basis of such “interests,” the Court decided that the state may regulate abortion throughout pregnancy to protect the woman’s health and generally prohibit abortion when the fetus becomes “viable.” In so deciding, the Court conformed to a theory which has prevailed in United States law for most of the twentieth century: rights are not absolute and must be “balanced” against (i.e., invaded by) the “interests” of the state. In Roe v. Wade, the Court concluded that at the point of fetal viability, the “state’s interests” in potential life outweigh the woman’s right to control her own body.

None of the Justices in their opinions in Webster, whether for or against abortion, expressed any opposition to “balancing.” Indeed, Justice Blackmun stated in his dissenting opinion that Roe v. Wade “fairly, sensibly and effectively functions to safeguard the constitutional liberties of pregnant women while recognizing and accommodating the State’s interest in potential human life.” So long as it is assumed that rights may be overridden by “state interests,” the only question is not whether, but how much will the right at issue be curtailed?

Abortion is a right, and all rights are absolute and cannot be “balanced” away. A right is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context. Thus, a pregnant woman, like every other individual, has the right to determine her own destiny and the destiny of her body, to choose what constitutes her own best interest and private happiness and to work for its achievement, so long as she respects the same rights in others.

These rights, and all rights, are absolute by their nature. It cannot be proper to negotiate moral principles. It cannot be proper to allow a man only a portion of the freedom he requires by his nature.

What of the fetus? Does it have rights which must be respected? The concept of rights is based on man’s nature and presupposes the existence of an actual, fully formed and separate human being. Fetuses and embryos are not actual human beings; they are potential human beings. They have no rights until they exist apart from the mother, i.e., at birth. This is not to condone the morality of arbitrarily delaying an abortion until the last months of pregnancy–when the fetus is approaching humanness. But the function of the law is to protect rights–not to dictate moral issues which involve no violation of rights.

The only proper function of government is to protect man’s absolute rights against violation by other men. No government, no state, no collective has any “interest” apart from the individuals of which it is composed. Thus, it can have no “interest” which conflicts with any individual’s rights, such as a paternalistic interest in “maternal health.” Our Consitution was drafted in recognition of these principles. It was designed, not as a charter for government power, but as a protection against government power, i.e., against invasion of individual rights by the government. For this reason, the Constitution enumerates the limited powers of the government but not (as made clear in the Ninth Amendment) every individual right.

These are the principles that should be advanced in Webster. If Roe v. Wade is reconsidered, the Supreme Court should affirm abortion as a right that cannot be invaded or compromised.
 
Cato

If I was one of the posters that you were referring to, I’d be happy to reiterate any of my substantive critiques of the normative pro-choice arguments.

Why not just pick what you consider to be **the most normative pro-choice argument **and critique it? People have short memories, and some have perhaps joined us who haven’t had a chance to catch up on your earlier critiques.

Reiterate away!
 
jrgiancola

Unlike some of you, I will not live in any country governed by a religion. Church and state must be separated.

They are. They have been. They always will be.

Abortion is not by definition a religious issue. It is a moral issue, and moral issues can be settled without recourse to religion (though religion surely cultivates a moral sense). Some atheists agree with Catholics that abortion is a profound evil in our society.

The issue is not whether religion will govern this country, but whether common sense will govern it. This matter was discussed much earlier in the thread. Apparently you joined us late and want us to go all through it again?

Common sense: we do not kill our children.
The reason most people find abortion to be a religious issue is because the morals involved are generally rooted in a theological/religious belief system. You believe abortion is wrong because your religion tells you so. When people of other religions (or no religion) disagree with you, you take the position that your religion is superior to their’s - in essence, you are right and they are wrong when it comes to what God wants.

As to common sense, there are millions of people who find the equating of a fertilized egg with a fully gestated newborn the polar opposite of common sense. 🤷
 
fix;6358004]And this is the pro abortion stance. The court said so. Regardless of any connection to ultimate truth.
Yes Fix, because this system of govt is not concerned with nor suited for the ultimate truth------it leaves that to the other parts of society. That is why this govt here is one of limited powers. A free society means a limited govt. This is part of the rationale of the Pro-choice view.
 
Charlemagne II;6358071]
You need a working definition of common sense?
Produce any dictionary definition if you like, since I doubt you’ll accept mine.
Common sense should include reasoning that is self evident and does not require specialized knowledge or training to develop. Common sense is a given; we rely on our common sense in most of our daily tasks. You would not, for example, hitch your cart to the front of your horse, unless you lacked common sense.
Or, here it comes!
You would not kill your own child.
Unless you are a savage. But the Constitution exists to protect us from savagery (that should be common sense), except for the savagery of the butcher who tears a baby limb from limb and crushes it head while still in the womb. That is not a common sense provision of the United States Constitution. The minority on the court in Roe v Wade said so. The minority were right. The majority produced a decision that has snuffed out 50 million lives, 50 million future workers, 50 million future voters, 50 millions souls that were entitled to work out their own destiny rather than be executed in the womb by permission of Blackmun and Co.
Hey, quit coming after the messinger here. 😃
 
The quotation above from the Association for Objective Law regards abortion as an absolute and fundamental right, which ought not to be impeded by the state in any way whatsoever at any time before birth.

It goes on to say: “What of the fetus? Does it have rights which must be respected? The concept of rights is based on man’s nature and presupposes the existence of an actual, fully formed and separate human being. Fetuses and embryos are not actual human beings; they are potential human beings.”

And yet nothing in the nature of the fetus has fundamentally changed in the seconds before and after exiting the birth canal. At each of those times, it was a distinct individual of the human species. All that changed was its location. It seems a peculiar basis on which to grant or deny fundamental rights–the location of the distinct human individual determining whether or not he or she may be designated a human being.

Why do they not go further? The newborn is not really viable yet. It cannot exist on its own. Why not agree with Professor Singer that the parents ought to have a few months in which to decide whether the child should be accepted or rejected, whether it should live or die? He would not grant personhood right away but defer it for a some months. Perhaps they do agree with him, but it sounds as if they would be willing to “confer” humanity (as if it were ours to confer) immediately after birth.
 
The reason most people find abortion to be a religious issue is because the morals involved are generally rooted in a theological/religious belief system. You believe abortion is wrong because your religion tells you so. When people of other religions (or no religion) disagree with you, you take the position that your religion is superior to their’s - in essence, you are right and they are wrong when it comes to what God wants.

As to common sense, there are millions of people who find the equating of a fertilized egg with a fully gestated newborn the polar opposite of common sense. 🤷
While my religion does tell me that abortion is a grave evil, my chief reason for opposing it is the same as the reason that Nat Hentoff, a non-believer, opposes it: it kills a new and distinct human being. And that’s biology, not faith.
 
Charlemagne II;6358092]Worthy5
More evasion. When you are boxed in,
🍿
you tend to reply that we should take it up with the Court. If you believe the Court is right, you should be able to add to Blackmun’s argument, not merely cite it as infallible and eternal law.
This poster is hardly qualified to add to Mr. Justice Blackmun.
We have answered you on every front.
:eek:
You have answered us hardly on any front except to cite Blackmun ad nauseam.
Hey, stick with the authority. :ehh:
 
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