The pro-life common sense clincher

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Doc Keele

*You don’t differentiate the born from the unborn. *

The unborn is still a child. If you don’t think so, watch an abortion.

Here is the website that gives Charlton Heston’s 3 minute introduction to the documentary, “Eclipse of Reason.” At the time the film was made, there had been 20 million babies executed by abortion. That number has since risen to about 50 million.

youtube.com/watch?v=eyDxaQ4ZApA
Which is just ignoring the point I was making. I know full well what’s involved in an abortion, just as I know what’s involved in gender reassignment surgery, circumcision, breast reduction etc etc. I expect I’ve seen a lot more deaths IRL than you have.
 
Worthy5

*You are asking the govt to regulate in an area that it has no authority to regulate. The govt can use other methods to help address the problem other than the police power.

Hey, you have to have rigorous debate*

I’m trying, but you’re not cooperating! 😃

It is precisely the point that the government is regulating abortion by making it legal and by using the police power of the state to protect the butchers who murder the children in the womb.

Why can’t you grasp that government cannot avoid regulating one way or the other?

Doc Keele

*I expect I’ve seen a lot more deaths IRL than you have. *

That’s not the point of this discussion. The point is, if you have seen an abortion, why can you not see that this is the death of a child?
 
Charlemagne, you are picking me up wrong. I said that we need to distinguish between the born and unborn, did I not?
Where in that sentence did I say that the unborn is not a child - by some definitions, at least.
 
Charlemagne II;6361657]
It is precisely the point that the government is regulating abortion by making it legal
What universe is this? Okay so if the govt does not have a law on something, it is still regulating it. 🤷 You want to say govt’s no action----is govt regulation. No, the point in Roe is that the decision on the early fetus belongs to the women, not the govt.

There are generally two types of decisions in society—those by the govt (majority will) and those by the individual.
and by using the police power of the state to protect the butchers who murder the children in the womb.
Outside the scope, Roe here is talking about the women—not the regulation of the Doctor. Nice try though. 🙂
Why can’t you grasp that government cannot avoid regulating one way or the other
Why cant you grasp a counterargument?
 
Worthy5

*No, the point in Roe is that the decision on the early fetus belongs to the women, not the govt. *

The point in Roe is that the government is making legal what was not legal. That is government regulation. The point in Roe is that a paid butcher of children cannot be indicted because he is upholding a mother’s right to butcher her own child. That is government regulation.

Is this the Supreme Court’s idea of common sense?

Is it your idea of common sense?
 
Charlemagne II;6361926]
The point in Roe is that the government is making legal what was not legal.
You are working on the assumption that all morality is law and all law must be morality. We have been through this, in the American System there are multiple goals the law promotes—one is morality—but it is and cannot be the exclusive goal because to do so means the goal of limited govt could not be achieved.
The point in Roe is that a paid butcher of children cannot be indicted because he is upholding a mother’s right to butcher her own child. That is government regulation.
As indicated that is a separate issue defining it as a medical decision between the women and her doctor—thus providing cover for the doctor. That does not change the
“zone of privacy” analysis in regards to the women-----the place where govt cannot go. The central point still holds in regards to the personal autonomy/decision making of the women.
Is this the Supreme Court’s idea of common sense?
There you go again. Confusing the moral issue with the legal one.
Is it your idea of common sense?
There you go again. Confusing the moral issue with the legal one.
 
Worthy5

*There you go again. Confusing the moral issue with the legal one. *

All legal issues are moral issues. Name one that isn’t!

The 5th Amendment requires due process. What due process is accorded the unborn child when, clearly innocent, it is summarily executed in the womb?

You would refuse protection of the unborn on the ground that a mother has a right of privacy to kill her child, and a butcher enjoys the same right of privacy by helping her to do it?

This is common sense? 😦
 
Yes Fix, because this system of govt is not concerned with nor suited for the ultimate truth------it leaves that to the other parts of society. That is why this govt here is one of limited powers. A free society means a limited govt. This is part of the rationale of the Pro-choice view.
  1. Any unjust law is not a true law.
  2. I am not asking that a justice apply some arbitray standard, just that we stop claiming that any result is authentically just simply because some judge applied his understanding of some judicial philosophy. If that is the standard then anything may be justified based on the notion the court said so.
  3. Is your argument that the court allows it therefore it is just?
 
Worthy5

*There you go again. Confusing the moral issue with the legal one. *

All legal issues are moral issues. Name one that isn’t!
Many in the law hold similar views of reality. They even claim it is legitimate to put an innocent person to death as long as the trial was fair and all legal proceedings were followed.

It goes to the basic premise of why law exists. For too many it is not about justice but simply following the machinery in place.
 
You are working on the assumption that all morality is law and all law must be morality. We have been through this, in the American System there are multiple goals the law promotes—one is morality—but it is and cannot be the exclusive goal because to do so means the goal of limited govt could not be achieved.
If it contradicts the natural law on such a fundamental issue then it is not a true law.
There you go again. Confusing the moral issue with the legal one.

There you go again. Confusing the moral issue with the legal one.
Just so I can follow you are you saying that any law is just simply because it is passed and interpreted as such? What is the basis of law?
 
Charlemagne, you are picking me up wrong. I said that we need to distinguish between the born and unborn, did I not?
Where in that sentence did I say that the unborn is not a child - by some definitions, at least.
Why?
 
Abortion is a right, and all rights are absolute and cannot be “balanced” away. A right is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context. Thus, a pregnant woman, like every other individual, has the right to determine her own destiny and the destiny of her body, to choose what constitutes her own best interest and private happiness and to work for its achievement, so long as she respects the same rights in others.

These rights, and all rights, are absolute by their nature. It cannot be proper to negotiate moral principles. It cannot be proper to allow a man only a portion of the freedom he requires by his nature.

What of the fetus? Does it have rights which must be respected? The concept of rights is based on man’s nature and presupposes the existence of an actual, fully formed and separate human being. Fetuses and embryos are not actual human beings; they are potential human beings. They have no rights until they exist apart from the mother, i.e., at birth. This is not to condone the morality of arbitrarily delaying an abortion until the last months of pregnancy–when the fetus is approaching humanness. But the function of the law is to protect rights–not to dictate moral issues which involve no violation of rights.

The only proper function of government is to protect man’s absolute rights against violation by other men. No government, no state, no collective has any “interest” apart from the individuals of which it is composed. Thus, it can have no “interest” which conflicts with any individual’s rights, such as a paternalistic interest in “maternal health.” Our Consitution was drafted in recognition of these principles. It was designed, not as a charter for government power, but as a protection against government power, i.e., against invasion of individual rights by the government. For this reason, the Constitution enumerates the limited powers of the government but not (as made clear in the Ninth Amendment) every individual right.

These are the principles that should be advanced in Webster. If Roe v. Wade is reconsidered, the Supreme Court should affirm abortion as a right that cannot be invaded or compromised.
If this is not arbitrary, then nothing is.
 
fix;6362247]1. Any unjust law is not a true law.
You are doing what Charles is doing: you think all law is morality and all morality must be law----it is not in this system.
  1. I am not asking that a justice apply some arbitray standard, just that we stop claiming that any result is authentically just simply because some judge applied his understanding of some judicial philosophy. If that is the standard then anything may be justified based on the notion the court said so.
What do you think Judges do? They make judgments. You do not have to agree with it but the Court has the authority.
  1. Is your argument that the court allows it therefore it is just?
And what is justice?----that is a subjective term.
 
[Charlemagne II;6362112
All legal issues are moral issues. Name one that isn’t!
We have been through this right. Driving on the right side of the road is not based on any moral principle. A law that allows a private company to keep all of its profits is not based on any moral principle. Its purpose is to provide incentive for someone to take risk and to start a business then reap the rewards if the business has success.
Once again, society has multiple goals it is trying to promote.
The 5th Amendment requires due process. What due process is accorded the unborn child when, clearly innocent, it is summarily executed in the womb?
We have been through this, the Court did not believe the drafters had the unborn in mind in many provisions of the Constitution.
You would refuse protection of the unborn on the ground that a mother has a right of privacy to kill her child, and a butcher enjoys the same right of privacy by helping her to do it?
You keep saying the same thing, charging it with emotional language hoping that if you say it enough that it will “smoke” over the main point------ a" zone of privacy" or no govt interference zone exists that a limited govt society contemplates with respect to its police power. This does not mean the govt cannot take other steps to address the problem.
This is common sense?
The act of abortion? No. The policy of limited govt action? Yes.
 
You are doing what Charles is doing: you think all law is morality and all morality must be law----it is not in this system.
How is it you understand the system?
What do you think Judges do? They make judgments. You do not have to agree with it but the Court has the authority.
We all agree they have authority. The question is do they use it correctly or is the act of judging separate from right and wrong?
And what is justice?----that is a subjective term.
A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.
 
fix;6362257]Many in the law hold similar views of reality. They even claim it is legitimate to put an innocent person to death as long as the trial was fair and all legal proceedings were followed.
Fix, study the legal system. A criminal verdict is either guilty or not guilty—never a declaration of innocence. Proof has to be beyond a reasonable doubt–that is the safe guard—is it perfect? no, but life is not perfect. One is guaranteed a fair trial, not a perfect one.
It goes to the basic premise of why law exists. For too many it is not about justice but simply following the machinery in place.
That “machinery” you call it, or rather following the rules and procedures is justice.
 
Worthy – just wondering about the extent to which you’ve studied the legal system. I don’t mean to make any judgments, it’s just that you make some curious legal arguments.
 
fix;6362512]how is it you understand the system?
we all agree they have authority. The question is do they use it correctly or is the act of judging separate from right and wrong?
a human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.
😉
 
If this is not arbitrary, then nothing is.
fix,

In your reply above you didn’t quote the entire post of mine. It appears as if I am the one saying everything that you “quoted”. In reality, the section of my post that you highlighted is attributed to the Association for Objective Law, and is their position. I have never stated that their position is my own.
 
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