The problem consciousness poses for the old materialist paradigm

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Many atheists or agnostics subscribe to a materialist world view and believe that our consciousness and mind are *wholly *accounted for by the actions of the material brain and is merely something “generated” by the brain, like light generated from a light bulb. Over the last half century numerous cracks have opened up in this materialist paradigm and a strong case can now be made that consciousness is not as wholly reducible to the physics and material of the brain, as a matter of fact we’re close to that point where the old materialist view of man and mind starts to look nearly untenable.

For starters there is the Gödelian argument initially proposed by Oxford philosopher John Lucas in 1961 in his paper Minds, Machines and Gödel demonstrating the fact that we now know from Gödel’s Theorem that human minds can analyze any formal system (which includes any conceivable mechanistic systems or computers) and then find the Gödel proposition of that system demonstrates that the human mind itself does not also act as a formal system and can not be considered as a type of machine (or a “computer made of meat”, as has been said). This appears to eliminate a completely materialist explanation of “mind”. The Gödelian argument was expanded on by the renowned mathematical physicist Roger Penrose in his two books in the 1990’s; *The Emperor’s New Mind *and Shadows of the Mind. Penrose points out that it’s the human mind’s quality of “understanding” and it’s ability to form judgments and have insights that is something that can never “in principle” be encapsulated by *any *type of computer or mechanical system, when we form judgments and have insights our minds appear to be operating outside any known laws of physics.

Then we have what is known as the “Mary problem”, from the argument first proposed in 1982 by philosopher Frank Jackson which poses some serious problems for a reductive explanation of consciousness. Mary is a super-scientist, locked in her black and white room, which is devoid of any color. She has spent her whole life in that black and white room never seeing any colors, she’s even got black and white TV. She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and has studied the science of the perception of color and learned everything science can possible know about perception of color; she know every minute detail in the chain of how electromagnetic radiation of a 700 nanometers wavelength on the visible spectrum of light is passed through the lens of the eye and received by the 7 million cones within the back of the retina and transmitted via the optic nerve to the visual cortex and to it’s associated neurons to produce the perception of the color “red” within the brain. Mary knows everything we can conceivable know about perception of color. Then one day she leaves her black and white room and actually experiences seeing the color red for the first time in her life. Did Mary learn something new about the perception of color when she left the room? One would think so, she learned what seeing and *experiencing *red is really like and if she did indeed gain new knowledge materialism and physicalism appear to give an inadequate explanation of our consciousness. Since Frank Jackson first proposed the “Mary’s room” argument in his paper Epiphenomenal Qualia nearly 30 years ago, it has left materialists thinkers scratching their heads and looking for a way out of the enigma.

The Mary problem is based on Mary’s new knowledge which was gained from her subjective conscious experience, or “qualia” or “phenomenal experience”. Explaining these qualia has been termed as “Hard Problem of consciousness” by the philosopher David Chalmers in his seminal paper *Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness *published in 1995. In this paper and others Chalmers has made what many feel is a convincing case that the hard problem of consciousness, the subjective experience of persons, i.e. “qualia”, can never be explained in materialist terms, the most a material object should produce are non-phenomenal experiencing “zombies”, robot people with no inner life of subjective experience.

In his book *The Conscious Mind *Chalmers argues that consciousness is a fundamental constituent of the universe, like mass or energy, which can not be further reduced to an end product of something else, like for instance water can be reduced to hydrogen and oxygen atoms, consciousness is a fundamental entity. This idea coincidently (or not so coincidently, if it’s simply the truth) puts him along the same train of thinking as seen in the writings of such well known and highly respected quantum physicists such as Henry P. Stapp, John Archibald Wheeler, and Nobel laureate Eugene Wigner to name a few, in papers such as *Remarks on the mind-body question *and Mental Causation.

continued in next post . . .
 
Of course this could all be a lot of philosophical gobbledygook (as well as mathematical gobbledygook and quantum gobbledygook). Are there any real world clues that consciousness could really exist independently from the brain? Well, if consciousness is not simply a product of the brain we’d expect it to continue to function in some form and have experiences even in the absence of brain function. For instance within seconds after a cardiac arrest we know the brain completely shuts down with a total absence of any brain-waves or neural activity, it’s like unplugging a lamp from the wall socket. Yet there have been literally thousands of conscious experiences by people while their brain was completely non-functioning and “turned off” documented by medical doctors researching the subject of near-death experiences over the last few decades.

One of the largest and most detailed studies ever conducted was done by Dutch Cardiologist Dr. Pim van Lommel. In 1988 Dr. Lommel started a prospective study of 344 consecutive survivors of cardiac arrest in ten Dutch hospitals, interviewing them within days of the cardiac arrest. In 2001, van Lommel published the results of this study in the esteemed British medical journal The Lancet, under the title Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands. He followed that with a fascinating paper About the Continuity of our Consciousness (this is a must-read link!) discussing the implications of his study; that these people’s experiences during cardiac arrest could not be squared with materialist-atheist views of consciousness and man, and this from a guy smack in the middle of the atheist dominated society of The Netherlands.

Dr. van Lommel is by no means the only doctor who has done a detailed study of NDEs in cardiac arrest patients. In the 1990’s Dr. Michael Sabom had the “Atlanta study”, which he outlines in his book Light and Death. One patient he profiles in the study is Pam Reynolds. Pam had one of the most amazing NDEs ever documented because it was during close medical monitoring of all her vital functions. She was “dead” under any medical definition. During a dangerous brain surgery procedure, known as “hypothermic cardiac arrest” which was needed to remove a large artery aneurysm in her brain, her body temperature was lowered to 60 °F, her breathing and heartbeat were stopped and the blood was drained from her head. And she had detailed consciousness experiences of everything going on and being said in the operating room! And there have been many others like Pam recorded over the last few decades.

Now could all these problems consciousness presents for the materialist world-view conceivably be explained in the future in materialist terms? I suppose it’s possible, though you have to think after so many clues; If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck . . .
 
Many atheists or agnostics subscribe to a materialist world view and believe that our consciousness and mind are *wholly *accounted for by the actions of the material brain
The way I would put it is that many atheists or agnostics think that nothing that humans have discovered about the brain suggests that the mind is something separate from it, and that what humans have discovered suggests that mind is an emergent property of brains.

Look at what you’ve posted. Nothing comes close to being evidence that mind is separate from a brain. The closest you get are the near death experiences, and even then, it should be obvious that there’s a lot that we don’t know about the brain, particularly when it’s undergoing a stressful or unusual experience that it’s never gone through before, like death. It’s not clear exactly when it “shuts down” or when the energy that produces consciousness entirely dissipates, etc.

The fact of the matter is that we don’t have any examples of minds obviously existing apart from brains. What we do have are examples of changes to the brain resulting in changes to the mind – lots and lots of those examples.
 
Now could all these problems consciousness presents for the materialist world-view conceivably be explained in the future in materialist terms? I suppose it’s possible, though you have to think after so many clues; If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck . . .
no, i dont think so, the questions at hand really all point back to free will, and its incompatibility with the deterministic universe of the physicist, or the indeterminism of the philosophers. not to the blunt instrument called ‘science’
 
Look at what you’ve posted.
I am.

did you want to make a *specific * critique of something I said or just the vague inspecific “I don’t believe in any of this because I don’t believe in it” critiques I always see from atheists.

you mention the NDE, did you even read any of the NDE links?
 
The way I would put it is that many atheists or agnostics think that nothing that humans have discovered about the brain suggests that the mind is something separate from it, and that what humans have discovered suggests that mind is an emergent property of brains.
It is hardly surprising that nothing about the brain suggests that the mind is separate from it. What would you expect to find? What we have discovered is that brain activity is a hopelessly inadequate explanation of the power of the mind.
Look at what you’ve posted. Nothing comes close to being evidence that mind is separate from a brain. The closest you get are the near death experiences, and even then, it should be obvious that there’s a lot that we don’t know about the brain, particularly when it’s undergoing a stressful or unusual experience that it’s never gone through before, like death.
There’s a lot we do know about the brain: that it is a physical network of cells which functions according to natural laws and has no insight into itself, awareness or self-control. An increase in complexity does not entail either autonomy or consciousness.
It’s not clear exactly when it “shuts down” or when the energy that produces consciousness entirely dissipates, etc.
We don’t even know that the sole form of energy is blind, purposeless physical energy… but we have very good reason to believe we have spiritual power.
The fact of the matter is that we don’t have any examples of minds obviously existing apart from brains. What we do have are examples of changes to the brain resulting in changes to the mind – lots and lots of those examples.
All we have are examples of changes to the brain resulting in effects on the mind but that is nothing new. Man has always known there is interaction between the mind and the brain.

Given that the mind is intangible what evidence would you expect of minds existing apart from brains? Activity like that of poltergeists?

If there were coercive evidence that minds exist independently it would be impossible to be a materialist - and very difficult to be an atheist! We would no longer be free to choose what to believe and how to live. We would **know **there is another world…
 
All we have are examples of changes to the brain resulting in effects on the mind but that is nothing new. Man has always known there is interaction between the mind and the brain.
btw, have you ever heard of “dualistic interactionism”? or as it’s also called “interactive dualism”.

two of the giants of modern neuroscience, Wilder Penfield and John Eccles, were subscribers to a dualistic interactionism model of the interaction between an immaterial mind and the brain.
 
Your case against materialism comes down to three points:

(1) Gödel’s incompleteness theorems;
(2) Mary’s problem;
(3) NDEs.

As for the first, I am continually amazed that people think Gödel’s theorems have such wide-reaching philosophical implications. What about them constitutes evidence against materialism? In your post, you make a remarkable inference:
Gödel proposition of that system demonstrates that the human mind itself does not also act as a formal system and can not be considered as a type of machine
It is certainly true that the human mind is not a formal system, but we didn’t need Gödel’s theorems to tell us that. More importantly, though, how in the world does this imply that the human mind is not a biological machine? You’d need to make an argument for why this must be the case, which you did not do in your OP.

Regarding Mary’s problem, the trick is that you claim Mary has learned everything about the color red—except, apparently, what it looks like, i.e. how her brain processes it. So, when she finally does learn this last and quite important (to her) element, she is quite enamored. But nothing about this scenario is incompatible with materialism unless dualism is assumed in advance, which of course would beg the question.

Finally, we have NDEs, which I will decline to discuss in this post, since I am simply not interested in what I regard as pseudoscience. I’m sure other skeptics here will be willing to tackle the issue, however.
 
Nothing of what you say points to any kind of mind-separate from body phenomenon. The study reported that of the people studied who had clinically died with little brain activity and were brought back to life, 7-12% report that they had some kind of near-death experience. Very doubtful that it actually refers to any kind of out of body experience that they actually had when they were actually dead, but maybe. It also says that those who were in CPR longer had less of a chance of an NDR, likely because their memory was affected, another example of the mind being physical. The paper in general is poor.

Your “Mary problem” isn’t a problem at all. The thing Mary learns when she leaves the black and white room, after learning about all the colors, is the reference. Before, when she studied the phenomenon of color and how the brain processes it etc, she could only reference the knowledge of color to words like “blue, orange yellow.” When she actually experienced them and cataloged the sensory information, she could then attribute the information that she learned about each color and colors in general to her experiences. Her understanding and knowledge becomes more complete by experience.

Yeah you really didn’t show anything that supports super-materialistic evidence.

Added: For the report, when you look at what the people who say they have had an NDE are actually saying, it’s stuff like:
1 Awareness of being dead 31 (50%)
2 Positive emotions 35 (56%)
3 Out of body experience 15 (24%)
4 Moving through a tunnel 19 (31%)
5 Communication with light 14 (23%)
6 Observation of colours 14 (23%)
7 Observation of a celestial landscape 18 (29%)
8 Meeting with deceased persons 20 (32%)
9 Life review 8 (13%)
10 Presence of border 5 (8%)

It all seems like subjective imagination, which some may be based on actual brain activity going through the process of death. And as you know we can have some pretty vivid dreams.
 
Your case against materialism comes down to three points:

(1) Gödel’s incompleteness theorems;
(2) Mary’s problem;
(3) NDEs.

As for the first, I am continually amazed that people think Gödel’s theorems have such wide-reaching philosophical implications. What about them constitutes evidence against materialism? In your post, you make a remarkable inference:

It is certainly true that the human mind is not a formal system, but we didn’t need Gödel’s theorems to tell us that. More importantly, though, how in the world does this imply that the human mind is not a biological machine? You’d need to make an argument for why this must be the case, which you did not do in your OP.

Regarding Mary’s problem, the trick is that you claim Mary has learned everything about the color red—except, apparently, what it looks like, i.e. how her brain processes it. So, when she finally does learn this last and quite important (to her) element, she is quite enamored. But nothing about this scenario is incompatible with materialism unless dualism is assumed in advance, which of course would beg the question.

Finally, we have NDEs, which I will decline to discuss in this post, since I am simply not interested in what I regard as pseudoscience. I’m sure other skeptics here will be willing to tackle the issue, however.
Thanks for responding

Not to be nitpicky but you mention that I made three points, I actually mentioned five, You forgot Chamlers’ works and the clues from quantum physics, what Henry Stapp would call the “Process 1 intervention” of a consciousness on the evolving quantum wavefunction. Chamlers’ work is actually considered to be a much more powerful case for the real existence of qualia than the Mary Room argument, most philosophers feel he has made the case that our subjective experiences can not be explained in materialist terms. As far as me “needing to make the case” for Gödel’s theorem and qualia and everything else I mentioned, that’s not something I can do in a couple of paragraphs in a post on a message board, that is why I put “embedded links” to the papers I was referencing. If you have some time over the next day or two, PLEASE read the links to John Lucas’ paper Minds, Machines and Gödel, David Chalmers’ paper Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness, and Dr. Pim van Lommel’s paper About the Continuity of our Consciousness, you might have a different opinion afterward.
 
Not to be nitpicky but you mention that I made three points, I actually mentioned five, You forgot Chamlers’ works and the clues from quantum physics, what Henry Stapp would call the “Process 1 intervention” of a consciousness on the evolving quantum wavefunction. Chamlers’ work is actually considered to be a much more powerful case for the real existence of qualia than the Mary Room argument, most philosophers feel he has made the case that our subjective experiences can not be explained in materialist terms.
But those aren’t arguments. They’re just appeals to authority—fallacious if offered as evidence for the opinions of those authorities. So I was assuming you did not intend them as such.
As far as me “needing to make the case” for Gödel’s theorem and qualia and everything else I mentioned, that’s not something I can do in a couple of paragraphs in a post on a message board, that is why I put “embedded links” to the papers I was referencing. If you have some time over the next day or two, PLEASE read the links to John Lucas’ paper Minds, Machines and Gödel, David Chalmers’ paper Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness, and Dr. Pim van Lommel’s paper About the Continuity of our Consciousness, you might have a different opinion afterward.
Doubtful. But if you think that they provide us with important insight, you are welcome to summarize it here.
 
John Lucas argues that people can do things that computers/machines could not possibly do due to Godel’s incompleteness theorem. The “Mary problem” argues that although computers/machines could someday do what people can do, the computers/machines will nonetheless not experience consciousness as people do.

These are two contradictory paradigms, and I don’t see anything in the OP that even attempts to synthesize these positions into a coherent proposal.

See here for how a world-class mathematician (N. G. de Bruijn) deals with the mind-body and the mind-computer problems.
 
See here for how a world-class mathematician (N. G. de Bruijn) deals with the mind-body and the mind-computer problems.
Bruijn admits that it sounds incredible that groups of cells ever collaborated to form a kind of mind and then adds that it is no more mysterious than the idea that groups of unicellular organisms once began to form multicellular organisms. In other words he is arguing that the existence of one mystery justifies adding (or replacing it with) another! The whole enterprise is flawed by the notion that chemical compounds organized themselves into neural networks - which then developed the power of abstract thought and introspection. Reasoning and consciousness are reduced to being the outcome of fortuitous, mechanistic processes…

Once again the Chance theory is heralded as a superior explanation to Design. Do you really believe everything (including mathematics) can be adequately attributed to a sequence of purposeless events?
 
Once again the Chance theory is heralded as a superior explanation to Design. Do you really believe everything (including mathematics) can be adequately attributed to a sequence of purposeless events?
My faith in Jesus Christ will not falter if evolution is true, or if the mind is materialistic, or if physics is deterministic, or many of the other topics debated here.

God created man. This is true because God created everything. God created the universe, so if evolution is true, than God created evolution too.

The main reason I posted de Bruijn’s paper is that I have been trying for a while now, without much success, to understand the metaphysical reasoning system that many people in this forum employ. To me, the striking thing about de Bruijn’s paper is how different the reasoning is from the other papers posted in this thread.

I do believe that the problem of consciousness will be solved by mankind in the future, and the techniques that contribute towards this solution will be mathematical and scientific, and not metaphysical.
 
John Lucas argues that people can do things that computers/machines could not possibly do due to Godel’s incompleteness theorem. The “Mary problem” argues that although computers/machines could someday do what people can do, the computers/machines will nonetheless not experience consciousness as people do.

These are two contradictory paradigms, and I don’t see anything in the OP that even attempts to synthesize these positions into a coherent proposal.
They are not *contradictory * paradigms, the two men are just approaching problems of materialism squaring with consciousness from two different angles. I suspect that both problems could be real, that the mind is capable of forming judgments and having insights in a non algorithmic way that no mechanistic system could ever do, and that no mechanistic system could ever experience qualia, we’ll never have a computer that can look at a sunset and have that “feeling of Wow” that we have when we experience one.

btw, I see you’re a professional mathematician, have you read Penrose’s two books I mentioned?
 
btw, I see you’re a professional mathematician, have you read Penrose’s two books I mentioned?
Not yet. I’m going through “The Road to Reality” right now, but that will take a while!

I’m still a beginner in the field of consciousness - I haven’t seen much that really makes sense to me yet.
 
Not yet. I’m going through “The Road to Reality” right now, but that will take a while!
*The Road to Reality *is his only book that I haven’t been able to finish, I usually get bored and put it away for a while, you absolutely *have *to be a professional mathematician to stick to that one. If you get a chance, pick up The Emperor’s new mind, I love that book (not as much wall to wall math as The Road to Reality, which is good for us non-professionals), I’ve read it twice so far
 
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