The Problem is "Liturgy Committees"

[FrCorey]

**I don’t even know why there are “liturgy committees” anyways. our rites and rules are laid out in books. for everyday they say what to do and say. what can be changed and under what conditions.

**

 

[Joe_Kelley]

“Consecration candles?” What are those?

They are twelve candles that mark the twelve locations where the Bishop anointed the church walls with chrism when he consecrated it.

Not all churches are consecrated, many are only dedicated. [Ours was one of the first, maybe the first, in the diocese to be consecrated - 12 years ago. I know that some of the priests present commented that they had never witnessed the ceremony before.] A consecrated church must be a permanent structure - stone or concrete, and used only as a church. I think at one time the building had to be torn down if no longer used as a church. Now I think there is a rite for deconsecrating it.

 

[NeelyAnn]

Tired,

The best thing for you to do is to read and become very knowledgeble with regards to what is and is not okay. Learn the rubrics, the history and reasoning behind them, what the various Popes have said, etc. Try to speak with the members of the committee and explain to them what is not okay and why it is not okay. Educate them. If they are not receptive, go over their head. If your Pastor is not receptive, send a letter to your Bishop and to Rome documenting the abuses and innovations. It may take a while to get a response, and perhaps you will never get a response. However, it is possible that other people feel as you do and have already complained. Adding another complaint may bring this issue to light. You never know which complaint will be the tipping block.

If you have not already done so, read this article by Alice Von Hildebrand. It is very good.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=106851

 

[Marauder]

**I don’t even know why there are “liturgy committees” anyways. our rites and rules are laid out in books. for everyday they say what to do and say. what can be changed and under what conditions.

**

Amen. The only possible use I can see for them is just someone that organizes logistics if the pastor wants to offload some of that (i.e. altar server schedules, flowers, cleans the altar cloth, etc.)

If they try to change anything about the liturgy itself they are going above and beyond.

 

[NeelyAnn]

Tired,

One more thought.

Is it possible for you and others to stage a coup of the Liturgy Committee?

 

[Marauder]

I think one of the nuns at my church put it best when talking about the senior member of our liturgy committee when that member was trying to do a liturgical abuse that affected the nun’s 1st communion group.

The nun basically said,“I have a degree in theology and this person, without any formal training, is trying to tell me what we can and can’t do at Mass.”

 

[SMHW]

Marauder:

The nun basically said,“I have a degree in theology and this person, without any formal training, is trying to tell me what we can and can’t do at Mass.”

Ummm… Many of those on liturgy committees do have degrees in theology and/or have formal training. Some members may have more supposed training than the pastor. Training is no guarantee of orthodoxy.

There seems to be a general idea that liturgy committees sit around and come up with ideas then bully the priest into carrying out these ideas. That is no doubt sometimes the case. But I know of cases where the pastor is the driving force behind the actions of the liturgy committee.

 

[Tired]

SMHW:

Ummm… Many of those on liturgy committees do have degrees in theology and/or have formal training. Some members may have more supposed training than the pastor. Training is no guarantee of orthodoxy.

There seems to be a general idea that liturgy committees sit around and come up with ideas then bully the priest into carrying out these ideas. That is no doubt sometimes the case. But I know of cases where the pastor is the driving force behind the actions of the liturgy committee.

Not in my experience. Here most of the members earned a certificate (some actually refer to it as their “master’s”) in something like “ministerial science” from a correspondance school some years ago. It is their belief that this somehow gave them the qualifications to do what they do and it’s clear that it does not.

 

[Marauder]

SMHW:

Ummm… Many of those on liturgy committees do have degrees in theology and/or have formal training. Some members may have more supposed training than the pastor. Training is no guarantee of orthodoxy.

There seems to be a general idea that liturgy committees sit around and come up with ideas then bully the priest into carrying out these ideas. That is no doubt sometimes the case. But I know of cases where the pastor is the driving force behind the actions of the liturgy committee.

In this case the senior person on the liturgy committee didn’t have ANY formal training. She also tried to institute numerous litergical abuses (litergical dance, cleaning sacred vessels with paper towels, etc.) until beat back by the new pastor.

 

[cameron_lansing]

There are some obligations that come with executing authority for the service of the Church and some that come with the privilege of having formally studied in a field of ministry.

People in authority with formal training and degrees should be able to provide the official documents that regulate liturgical matters, and justify their interpretation of them. There are norms for understanding any kind of law properly, and the formally trained should be able to explain those norms.

Ask for these things. Those who are competent, oriented to true service, and orthodox will not take any offense. As always, be charitable.

The Church does not like to have decisions made or authority exercised arbitrarily or contrary to its teaching, beliefs, or laws. Not does it like the appearance of those things.

 

[frommi]

Something to chew on…

First…

At a minimum, remember that even the most misguided of liturgy committees probably has the best of intentions. I’ve sat through many a music selection meeting where people are requesting songs that simply aren’t appropriate for the rite in question, but they go on about the prayerful scene that is played out when the song is done a particular way…etc…etc…so they are at least trying to invite the community into worship. That’s not a bad thing.

Also, I’ve found that the best ‘liturgy committees’ are the ones who find a way to expand the liturgical life of the parish. So instead of worrying about this detail or that detail of the Sunday liturgy (or being a little overly innovative), they spend time planning the Liturgy of the Hours, or Adoration, or Stations of the Cross…and finding a way to tie all of this together for the community at large.

Sometimes it goes awry…and sometimes people who have been on these committees a little too long don’t like being told that a parish ‘tradition’ is inappropriate (fine line between tradition and bad habit after all).

But I think its dangerous to call them the source of all problems.

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

Something to chew on…

First…

At a minimum, remember that even the most misguided of liturgy committees probably has the best of intentions. I’ve sat through many a music selection meeting where people are requesting songs that simply aren’t appropriate for the rite in question, but they go on about the prayerful scene that is played out when the song is done a particular way…etc…etc…so they are at least trying to invite the community into worship. That’s not a bad thing.

The saying is: “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”

Also, I’ve found that the best ‘liturgy committees’ are the ones who find a way to expand the liturgical life of the parish. So instead of worrying about this detail or that detail of the Sunday liturgy (or being a little overly innovative), they spend time planning the Liturgy of the Hours, or Adoration, or Stations of the Cross…and finding a way to tie all of this together for the community at large.

My guess is this is where it starts to go wrong: “finding a way to tie all of this together for the community at large.” I just do not see that as their job.

Sometimes it goes awry…and sometimes people who have been on these committees a little too long don’t like being told that a parish ‘tradition’ is inappropriate (fine line between tradition and bad habit after all).

SOMETIMES???

If it were an occasional gaff, it would not be a big issue. The fact is that it TOO OFTEN “goes awry.”

But I think its dangerous to call them the source of all problems.

Got to agree there.

 

[rwoehmke]

I don’t even know why there are “liturgy committees” anyways. our rites and rules are laid out in books. for everyday they say what to do and say. what can be changed and under what conditions.

Actually so-called Liturgy Committees came into being shortly after Vatican II when we in the Catholic Church in the US were getting away with experimenting with the Mass. Probably we had good intentions, but obviously they are no longer needed in that role and Liturgy Committee has become a misnomer in parishs that are following the GIRM , etc. Our LC is basically in charge of scheduling ushers, EMHCs, Sacristans, choirs, etc. and in decorating the Church in keeping with the liturgical calender. They do not plan and devise new liturgical practices at all. Such committees have become redundant big time.

 

[frommi]

johnnykins:

The saying is: “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”

My guess is this is where it starts to go wrong: “finding a way to tie all of this together for the community at large.” I just do not see that as their job.

SOMETIMES???

If it were an occasional gaff, it would not be a big issue. The fact is that it TOO OFTEN “goes awry.”

Got to agree there.

I know what the road to hell is paved with…I just think its a little easier to enter into a conversation with these folks if you presume that they have goodwill in their hearts.

And I have seen some committees who have done an excellent job of developing more prayer opportunities for the community that fit with the tone of Lent, Easter, etc…It’s there job if the pastor makes it their job.

Well-done liturgy doesn’t just ‘happen’, it takes people who know what they are doing…priests and laity. Liturgy committees help with this…often.

 

[johnnykins]

rwoehmke:

Our LC is basically in charge of scheduling ushers, EMHCs, Sacristans, choirs, etc. and in decorating the Church in keeping with the liturgical calender. They do not plan and devise new liturgical practices at all. Such committees have become redundant big time.

And that’s the way it should be, IMHO. I would not use the word “redundant.” I would say dangerous.

 

[palmas85]

rwoehmke:

Actually so-called Liturgy Committees came into being shortly after Vatican II when we in the Catholic Church in the US were getting away with experimenting with the Mass. Probably we had good intentions, but obviously they are no longer needed in that role and Liturgy Committee has become a misnomer in parishs that are following the GIRM , etc. Our LC is basically in charge of scheduling ushers, EMHCs, Sacristans, choirs, etc. and in decorating the Church in keeping with the liturgical calender. They do not plan and devise new liturgical practices at all. Such committees have become redundant big time.

Very very true

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

I know what the road to hell is paved with…I just think its a little easier to enter into a conversation with these folks if you presume that they have goodwill in their hearts.

But you still need to tell them - “NO”

And I have seen some committees who have done an excellent job of developing more prayer opportunities for the community that fit with the tone of Lent, Easter, etc…It’s there job if the pastor makes it their job.

And the vast majority of such “developments” have been an unmitigated disaster or worse - as is evidenced by so many threads - not to mention every Catholic’s experiences of the last 40 years with the rampant abuses, bad taste, banality, and ofttimes, heresy palmed off as “development.”

Well-done liturgy doesn’t just ‘happen’, it takes people who know what they are doing…priests and laity. Liturgy committees help with this…often.

Scheduling and training is important. And Rome has taken great care to promulgate outstanding liturgies. So let the committees train and schedule - then do what Rome has mandated.

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

If after talking to the pastor, you have no success, take it up the next level to bishop. He is responsible for all liturgies in his diocese and if he is a good bishop he will be loyal to the magisterium and enforce the liturgical rules in his diocese.

Unfortunately if he does not, you can try going to the papal nuncio and get the Vatican involved, but probably success will only be had, after the bishop retired and a new one takes his place.

 

[Tired]

T.A.Stobie:

If after talking to the pastor, you have no success, take it up the next level to bishop. He is responsible for all liturgies in his diocese and if he is a good bishop he will be loyal to the magisterium and enforce the liturgical rules in his diocese.

Unfortunately if he does not, you can try going to the papal nuncio and get the Vatican involved, but probably success will only be had, after the bishop retired and a new one takes his place.

1.) My parish does not have a pastor, and it will not have one until September.

2.) The bishop could care less based on his written response to peoples’ concerns in the past.

3.) The PN and/or the Vatican is not going to get involved with anyone other than Graviora Delicta, and the abuses I have raised do not meet this standard (thanks be to God.)