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fhansen
Guest
How might our world look different if everyone was certain life continued after death-just that one belief alone?
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Warrenton
Guest
It would be empty. Everyone would commit suicide, assuming that the belief carried with it the certainty that the afterlife is better than this life.
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GEddie
Guest
Big assumption, W, and I’d have to say I don’t agree.
Most human beings believe in some type of existence beyond their eyes rolling back in their head. But there are 3 major theories of this:
Case 1) Reincarnation. Held by most faiths based in the Orient. If this is true, “you” cease being, and so this is the same as permanent death. No gain there.
Case 2) The Egyptian version of human afterlife: there is an afterlife, and it is better than we hope for, but you need to be Pharaoh or equivalent ( to build a pyramid, etc) to get there. For most of us, still all pain, no gain.
Case 3) The Babylonian version of human afterlife: Everybody continues existence through death; however, that existence is but a sad shadow of physical human life. No gain there either. The OT patriarchs, the Greek classicists, and most of the modern world, seem to have inherited this one.
So no, there would be no mass drive to suicide. Assuming we could not tell which of cases 1-3 was true, there would at best, be some minor consolation in mourning situations.
God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
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Warrenton
Guest
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GEddie
Guest
Indeed. And I meant that even if we knew that afterlife existed, but nothing of its nature, we would be no more attracted to it than we are now, given the 3 rather unappealing prospects.
BTW, what is “sati”??? I assume you put that there??
ICXC NIKA
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atheistgirl
Guest
I would rephrase the question and wonder how much better the world would be right now if people realised this was it - you get one shot at making a difference, so make it now. I think it would be an enormous force for good in the world.
Sarah x
Sarah x
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GEddie
Guest
Nope.I would rephrase the question and wonder how much better the world would be right now if people realised this was it - you get one shot at making a difference, so make it now. I think it would be an enormous force for good in the world.
Sarah x
You assume that everybody cares deeply about making a difference for good. Doubtful.
ISTM that if it were proven that there was nothing beyond our natural life, that you would see a massive explosion of corruption, venality and carnality as the masses struggled to “grab the gusto” as much as possible before the darkness fell.
And also a huge amount of cruelty toward those at the edges of life: the disabled, the old, infants, etc, since if they have no enduring value, why sacrifice in any way for such persons?
God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
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atheistgirl
Guest
Sadly there is already an emormous amount of cruelty to the elderly, the disabled, the young. Just look at the amount of charities tasked with filling the gaps for these groups. And this is in a society where the majority are believers in some faith or other.
I cant help wondering if people realised they couldnt just do as they wanted then seek forgiveness in whatever form, but knuckled down and made the best of every minute here on earth, not looking forward to anything beyond, we would indeed see a better world. The existence of the worlds religions doesnt seem to me to have prevented the abuse of the elderly, young and disabled.
This in no way what so ever implies the worlds religions have not done great good. Merely their existence doesnt seem to have stopped great harm also being done.
Sarah x
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Nooj
Guest
I’m not sure things will change all that much.
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GEddie
Guest
Believe me, it can get a lot worse. Terri Schiavo was just the tip of the iceberg.
I don’t mean nursing homes, I mean folks being actively killed so that the young and strong don’t have to worry about nursing homes.
They’ll do as they want and not bother with forgiveness at all, more likely.
Imagine all the people, living for today…
You’re about 2 generations out of date, Sarah.
I don’t see people who hope for only nothingness knocking themeself out do-gooding, when those having potentially better prospects don’t do that.
The existence of law, society and justice do not prevent human beings victimizing each other, either, but the situation would be worse without them.Sarah x
GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA.
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4Horsemen
Guest
People would have to know about the nature of the afterlife to care one way or another.
If everyone knew absolutely that the afterlife continued after death, but that it would be the Christian idea of heaven, hell and purgatory, I think many people would act upon it and strive for goodness, justice and truth to be united with God in heaven. But there would still be people, destined for hell by their own actions, who wouldn’t give a care. Also, there would be disagreement about the objectivity of what goodness, justice and truth consists.
Some would say we live in a Christian country, so why aren’t more people striving to attain perfection in the Christian life? Probably, because their faith is less than the mustard seed Jesus spoke about in the gospel. Or their will is weak.
So all in all, I don’t think speculation about this scenario makes much difference compared to the reality, at least for the Christian idea.
For other religious/philosophical paradigms, it would seem to me that there’d be even less concern since there would be no reason to find the afterlife attractive as the concept of heaven in the Christian faith.
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Ranklyfrank
Guest
You can do an empiric test, though it will take some time unless you are specially graced, that will lead you to that certainty. But it is not in the terms your faith would have it. It can’t be. Therefor we have some inexplicable statements from some of the Saints. But if you “got it” you wouldn’t need your faith, but might keep practicing it. Or not. And neither are many interested in doing it; precious few in fact. But the price is: don’t do–don’t see. Then you are stuck with just dogma and a hope.
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fhansen
Guest
One of the reasons I ask is because, from my understanding, Eastern Churches generally consider physical death to be the chief consequence of Original or Ancestral Sin. And the result is said to be that man, being trapped like a caged animal between the boundaries of birth and death, ends up with concupiscence, more or less like the “grab the gusto” scenario GEddie mentioned, with the obvious outcome of sin. The remedy-the major part of the healing- is Jesus’ triumph over death, the final enemy, where man is released from the fear of annihilation.
And so it makes me wonder, if man was certain of his continued existence, nothing more than that, perhaps having no more control over or knowledge about the hereafter than the control and knowledge he had when birthed into this world, but probably assuming his existence would at least be similar, how would it affect the way he lived? Would concupiscence lose its power of persuasion? Would man be less selfish, thinking his time was at least no longer limited, or more so, emboldened by his immortality?
It’s an interesting question to me because the specter of death must have a powerful influence over us whether we’re conscious of it or not.
Another related question from the Christian perspective might be, why did God ban man from eating from the Tree of Life, so that he may live. Is the awareness of a limited lifespan hanging over us somehow beneficial for fallen man?
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fhansen
Guest
Not sure I follow that one, Rf. Care to elaborate?
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GEddie
Guest
And yet, amazingly, some actually seem to need reminding of death; what is Ash Wednesday but a liturgical reminder of death? Why should such be needed?
It’s a PUNISHMENT, pure and simple. “Beneficial” doesn’t enter into it.
God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, but God could’ve annihilated us altogether. Instead, physical death is delayed in this life, a repreive, so to speak, affording us the time to have a change of heart from the one inherited from our first parents. I think the specter of death was meant to have the beneficial effect of providing a limited and certain time span within which to work out our salvation, so our actions can be weighed against the seriousness of such a life. Punishment, yes, but still reformative in intent, a part of God’s plan of salvation, already mapped out and kicked into gear from the get-go, IOW.
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tonyrey
Guest
If that is the only thing people realised it would be an enormous force for evil in the world. Many would think they get only one shot at making a difference for** themselves**, so make it now!I would rephrase the question and wonder how much better the world would be right now if people realised this was it - you get one shot at making a difference, so make it now. I think it would be an enormous force for good in the world.
Sarah x
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Ranklyfrank
Guest
Mr. fhansen, your original statement is:
I’m proposing that such a knowledge can be gained before death as a matter of certainty by means of known practices. But knowing that you are of a particular faith, I’m cautioning that the inevitable results of such a discovery would not be to your liking by any means in terms of what you currently believe. And I hypothesize that if I were to spell out what that method is, me having experience with the Church from both within and without, you will dismiss it. You will do so despite that as the best of my ability tells me, it is the very method used consciously or unconsciously by some Saints in the Church who arrived at that inevitable conclusion. And for that break through they were suspect, or more precisely the part of their legacy having to do with the final step they took, was suspect and still is. It’s common knowledge among many and has been mentioned on here before.
For what it’s worth, despite my very few posts on here, I’ve scanned a whole lot of threads going way back. The people who seem to agree with me are very ill received by the Faithful, whether they are Catholic or not, and some have even been banned. So you understand my reluctance in this matter on several levels. And I further claim that in the same way that one won’t see what’s at the other end of a telescope or a microscope unless they look through it, they won’t have this available certainty without doing the do according to specification. It just won’t wash to act like the Cardinal who refused to look through Galileo’s telescope because he knew it didn’t work. And I have no doubt that that man was acting in full accordance with his faith.
So I’m kind of faced with a conundrum: I know something works and the people who would benefit from it won’t touch it as a point of faith, or what they think is their faith. What would you do? You asked the question, it has an answer, and from every indication on here it won’t fly for you folks despite its proven success. I’m stumped.
You asked what is a “What if…” question; if what is a belief now was a certainty, things might change in terms of people’s behavior. Since you are a Catholic I’m assuming that you meant afterlife both as a general truth and that it might include consequences. So tell me if I’m wrong, but I’m reading you as saying that we ought to behave according to your faith in order to gain the best consequences and that if we knew for sure that they existed, that would go strongly to motive.
I’m proposing that such a knowledge can be gained before death as a matter of certainty by means of known practices. But knowing that you are of a particular faith, I’m cautioning that the inevitable results of such a discovery would not be to your liking by any means in terms of what you currently believe. And I hypothesize that if I were to spell out what that method is, me having experience with the Church from both within and without, you will dismiss it. You will do so despite that as the best of my ability tells me, it is the very method used consciously or unconsciously by some Saints in the Church who arrived at that inevitable conclusion. And for that break through they were suspect, or more precisely the part of their legacy having to do with the final step they took, was suspect and still is. It’s common knowledge among many and has been mentioned on here before.
For what it’s worth, despite my very few posts on here, I’ve scanned a whole lot of threads going way back. The people who seem to agree with me are very ill received by the Faithful, whether they are Catholic or not, and some have even been banned. So you understand my reluctance in this matter on several levels. And I further claim that in the same way that one won’t see what’s at the other end of a telescope or a microscope unless they look through it, they won’t have this available certainty without doing the do according to specification. It just won’t wash to act like the Cardinal who refused to look through Galileo’s telescope because he knew it didn’t work. And I have no doubt that that man was acting in full accordance with his faith.
So I’m kind of faced with a conundrum: I know something works and the people who would benefit from it won’t touch it as a point of faith, or what they think is their faith. What would you do? You asked the question, it has an answer, and from every indication on here it won’t fly for you folks despite its proven success. I’m stumped.
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fhansen
Guest
Hi, Rf, thanks for the reply. I really intended the question to be about the effects that our pending death has on us-and how our lives might be different for better or worse if the “threat” of non-existence were definitively ruled out in our minds, with little more knowledge than that.
PM me if you like; I’m still stumped by your post to be honest but honestly interested in hearing your answer to the question.
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levinas12
Guest
As a Catholic, I believe that death is not extinction … but the afterlife is not just a simple continuation of our present everyday world … when we die, we cease “to-be-in-the-world” … both believers and non-believers would agree that how we deal with this “absence” is important … human beings are unique in this respect … dogs and cats and other animals don’t have to deal with this problem … now I believe that the afterlife will eventually usher in a new heaven and a new earth … with no absences …
The belief in an afterlife, we could say that the meaning of our present existence is to give added poignancy to the old expression: absence makes the heart grow fonder.
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