The problem of Evil, specifically suffering

[fhansen]

If a concept of free will is at odds with the fact that an omnipotent and omniscient being will always get exactly what he wants, then it must be flawed in some way. Not all concepts of free will have that consequence, though.

The Christian concept contains the belief that creation, in the form of man, is allowed to reject God’s will-that’s what the doctrine of original sin is all about- and freewill could not be free at all without it.

 

[BlueShadow123]

HUMANS can already fix the problem but they chose not to.

Anybody who has nice expensive things doesn’t need them. That extra money could have went to somebody else to save a life. If we didn’t have rich people or anybody spending their money on useless things then we could all live a life without starvation. I always wondered why even high class people spend all their money on nice things, yet have the balls to complain about other people suffering. Well if everybody was Jesus, nobody would give a 2 cents about having perfect hair or cars, he would be spending that money on people who need it.

God gave people free will and a will to help others, yet we barley ever do it, do we?

Next time you go to a store and want to buy something expensive and unnecessary, think of where it COULD be going.

Of course I could easily consider myself selfish because I too, have many things I don’t exactly need. And the money that I spent those things with could have went to somebody to save a life or maybe provide acouple meals for people.

God is not the cause of suffering, we are.

 

[vera_dicere]

If I punch you in the face, giving you a black eye and knocking out a few of your teeth, do you blame God? If God is love, and He loves you, why would He allow you to suffer at my balled first?

Answer: Free will. All of us have it.

The people who are starving suffer because of their govt’s lack of infilstructure, or the lack of care by others, or their inability to get a job to get money to buy food, or the fact they are thrawling through some desert trying to grow beans.

God won’t take away our free will. We will all answer for our actions, or inactions, when we die and go to meet Him. If God did intervene and gave all the starving people pies and all the suffering people anti-depressants and tickets to Disneyland it would negate our need for faith and anyone who chose Him would only be doign so under a form of positive duress.

 

[wanstronian]

These answers are deeply unsatisfying.

1. If God is both omniscient and omnipotent, then he is failing in his fatherly duty by giving people free will, whom he knows will cause undue suffering to others. The ridiculous argument, “Is a father responsible for the actions of his child?” is inapplicable here, as a human is neither omniscient nor omnipotent.
2. The excuse of free will is inapplicable when it comes to the subject of natural disasters, which kill, maim and otherwise cause suffering to millions of innocent people all over the world.

The most logical explanation is that if God exists, he is either indifferent to our plight, or not omnipotent. Or, he has some complicated agenda that we cannot possibly know (although that doesn’t stop theists from making assertions as if they do know). If the latter case, in the absence of any firm evidence of such an agenda, calling God ‘good’ is no different to calling a serial rapist ‘good,’ unless one invokes the fallacy of Special Pleading to excuse God from his crimes.

Unfortunately, theists start with the presumption that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, then find themselves having to make excuses to explain away the evidence that clearly contradicts the combination of those presumptions.

 

[Pieman333272]

These answers are deeply unsatisfying.

That’s OK. I more or less worked over it.

1. If God is both omniscient and omnipotent, then he is failing in his fatherly duty by giving people free will, whom he knows will cause undue suffering to others. The ridiculous argument, “Is a father responsible for the actions of his child?” is inapplicable here, as a human is neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

In due time, those who abuse God’s greatest gift will be punished. Not only with hell or purgation, but in this life as well. Why did God give us natural law and morality? He gave us free will, but he chooses not to violate it. But he also gave us objective morality. to help us resist the temptation to misuse the gift he gave us, and then, perhaps, we will create laws from this and learn to stop the possible evils of free will with our own free will.

1. The excuse of free will is inapplicable when it comes to the subject of natural disasters, which kill, maim and otherwise cause suffering to millions of innocent people all over the world.

I don’t know why God doesn’t stop natural disasters. Maybe God repays those who die as a result with a trip to heaven or a short period of purgation.

The most logical explanation is that if God exists, he is either indifferent to our plight, or not omnipotent.

IMO omnipotence is a ** requirement** for God to exist, so it must be the first or the one you’re about to list (if he exists).

Or, he has some complicated agenda that we cannot possibly know (although that doesn’t stop theists from making assertions as if they do know). If the latter case, in the absence of any firm evidence of such an agenda, calling God ‘good’ is no different to calling a serial rapist ‘good,’ unless one invokes the fallacy of Special Pleading to excuse God from his crimes.

As I’ve said above, the allowance of evil in the world making somebody evil is a non-sequitur. You seem to be forgetting the idea of an afterlife. Maybe that’s why people continue to, and sometimes come to, worship God even in spite of every morsel of suffering they go through - they believe he will justify them. Of course, the atheists just think they’re stupid and superstitious.

“Clearly contradicts” is only applicable if we say he is omnibenevolent and acts in this world based on that. If we believe he is not omnibenevolent, but still benevolent, or that he doesn’t or rarely intervenes in spite of omnibenevolence, your conclusion is wrecked.

 

[fhansen]

1. If God is both omniscient and omnipotent, then he is failing in his fatherly duty by giving people free will, whom he knows will cause undue suffering to others.

This is true only if you’re certain that:

1. you’d prefer non-existence to existence in this particular world, the only world we know
   or
2. you’d prefer not having free will in this particular world

 

[BlueShadow123]

Ok, I see what you’re asking for now. Well, based on Gods plan which is everything that is happening, my answer would definitely apply. That suffering and sin is from man.

However I do think I get what you are saying. I agree with you.

It would have been nice if God had created a world where SIN and EVIL and SUFFERING were IMPOSSIBLE. But I guess he wanted to create something who he knew would fall into sin. I don’t know why, but whatever. He has his reasons I guess.

And do not tell me that heaven is the place he created without those things.
Thats not what i’m talking about. It is so ridiculous that he would make something he knew would fall into evil and then still want us to choose him without any physical evidence. It would be nice if he would just show up anytime because it would really help the non-believers. I mean people who demand physical evidence in order to believe in something would very much like if God could appear to them or something. (that is from an atheist perspective)

But back to my post, if I were God I certainly wouldn’t have made a world like this. A world where my creation would fall and suffer and then yet have to choose me without physical evidence. If I were to make something, I wouldn’t need them to choose me because if they were there with me, they would have already known I was the creator. I also wouldn’t allow my creation to suffer. I would not even let that be a possibility. But I really do hope that once I die, I find out why he chose to do things the way he did. And I know that billions of people want to know as well.

 

[fhansen]

It would be nice if he would just show up anytime because it would really help the non-believers. I mean people who demand physical evidence in order to believe in something would very much like if God could appear to them or something. (that is from an atheist perspective)

According to the teaching on the fall/original sin, man did walk with God in some direct manner and still rejected Him, effectively becoming a non-believer in God- as his God. And our purpose is simply to find-or be found by-Him again, after coming to know our need for Him. This rejection or acceptance is a matter of our free will-the choosing of life or death. He doesn’t leave us alone now-He came seeking His lost sheep via the Incarnation. And He continues to call us through His Church today-if we’re listening.

 

[BlueShadow123]

According to the teaching on the fall/original sin, man did walk with God in some direct manner and still rejected Him, effectively becoming a non-believer in God- as his God. And our purpose is simply to find-or be found by-Him again, after coming to know our need for Him. This rejection or acceptance is a matter of our free will-the choosing of life or death. He doesn’t leave us alone now-He came seeking His lost sheep via the Incarnation. And He continues to call us through His Church today-if we’re listening.

Yeah but accepting that hes even real is something you do in your head. It is a choice you make. But I see no actual physical proof of God himself.

 

[davidv]

Yeah but accepting that hes even real is something you do in your head. It is a choice you make. But I see no actual physical proof of God himself.

There was physical proof of God Himself in ~33AD.

 

[BlueShadow123]

There was physical proof of God Himself in ~33AD.

Why would you even bother to say that? It is not 33 A.D anymore. All we have is a book and some people who claim they have seen or talked to him which might be real, or might be due to mental problems. Either way, if some guy is going to come and claim hes God, it would only make sense he would give us more proof of him being real especially in a time like this, where atheism is growing everyday and skeptics are everywhere.

 

[davidv]

Why would you even bother to say that?

Because it is true and relevant to your post.

It is not 33 A.D anymore.

So? It not 1963 anymore either. Does this mean all the stories about the assassination of President Kennedy are just made up fiction?

All we have is a book and some people who claim they have seen or talked to him which might be real, or might be due to mental problems. Either way, if some guy is going to come and claim hes God, it would only make sense he would give us more proof of him being real especially in a time like this, where atheism is growing everyday and skeptics are everywhere.

The “proof” is the present existance of the Church. No purely human institution has survived as long as the Catholic Church. This is very stong evidence that the Church is who she says she is, the Bride of Christ, a divine institution.

In addition the proof you are asking for didn’t work on those who rejected Jesus in 33 AD. On what basis can you claim it would work today?

This appears to totally off topic, so if you want to pursue it further please start a new thread.

 

[PAboy57]

1)Could you cite the scriptures in the Hebrew Bible for that?

1. By now, we have seen that the old notions that one must have a King or King and Queen are no longer true. Doesn’t this highlight the flaws in the bible?

Saul from the tribe of Benjamin was the first King. It is is Samuel. Not sure about the “Hebrew” bible.

Titles were relevant for the time. King, President, etc all mean the same thing.

take care.

 

[PAboy57]

Ok, I see what you’re asking for now. Well, based on Gods plan which is everything that is happening, my answer would definitely apply. That suffering and sin is from man.

However I do think I get what you are saying. I agree with you.

It would have been nice if God had created a world where SIN and EVIL and SUFFERING were IMPOSSIBLE. But I guess he wanted to create something who he knew would fall into sin. I don’t know why, but whatever. He has his reasons I guess.

And do not tell me that heaven is the place he created without those things.
Thats not what i’m talking about. It is so ridiculous that he would make something he knew would fall into evil and then still want us to choose him without any physical evidence. It would be nice if he would just show up anytime because it would really help the non-believers. I mean people who demand physical evidence in order to believe in something would very much like if God could appear to them or something. (that is from an atheist perspective)

But back to my post, if I were God I certainly wouldn’t have made a world like this. A world where my creation would fall and suffer and then yet have to choose me without physical evidence. If I were to make something, I wouldn’t need them to choose me because if they were there with me, they would have already known I was the creator. I also wouldn’t allow my creation to suffer. I would not even let that be a possibility. But I really do hope that once I die, I find out why he chose to do things the way he did. And I know that billions of people want to know as well.

He did create that world and Adam and Eve sinned of pride.
He sent His only Son whom man crucified and did not believe.
We will all find out when we die and our eternal resting place is determined by our actions in this world. Some may not like the answer.

 

[BlueShadow123]

He did create that world and Adam and Eve sinned of pride.
He sent His only Son whom man crucified and did not believe.
We will all find out when we die and our eternal resting place is determined by our actions in this world. Some may not like the answer.

Yeah that is what I basically said in my post. Notice I said it was his ‘plan’. That is the way he choose to do things.

I know that some may not like this answer. Being a Christian, I know that many people disagree with me and what I believe.

But if I were God I were to do things differently. That is because humans do not understand certain things about God. The bible doesn’t say and humans don’t have all the answers. I guess ill have to wait until I’m dead to understand many questions about God that I may have that humans cannot answer.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Because it is true and relevant to your post.

So? It not 1963 anymore either. Does this mean all the stories about the assassination of President Kennedy are just made up fiction?

The “proof” is the present existance of the Church. No purely human institution has survived as long as the Catholic Church. This is very stong evidence that the Church is who she says she is, the Bride of Christ, a divine institution.

In addition the proof you are asking for didn’t work on those who rejected Jesus in 33 AD. On what basis can you claim it would work today?

This appears to totally off topic, so if you want to pursue it further please start a new thread.

I think many people disregard the bible as truth because it was made by man, and they believe because of that, it is probably half made up or just stories that were passed down. Or so many atheists say…

 

[PAboy57]

Yeah that is what I basically said in my post. Notice I said it was his ‘plan’. That is the way he choose to do things.

I know that some may not like this answer. Being a Christian, I know that many people disagree with me and what I believe.

But if I were God I were to do things differently. That is because humans do not understand certain things about God. The bible doesn’t say and humans don’t have all the answers. I guess ill have to wait until I’m dead to understand many questions about God that I may have that humans cannot answer.

Each of us in all honesty would do things differently based upon our own desires. It is quite simple really – love the Lord your God with your whole heart, love your neighbor and obey the commandments – things like not killing (unjustly), coveting neighbors goods.

This is why it is called Faith. Jesus said the gate was narrow. We have to decide if we want to try and make it through. The Church is the link to Christ. Of course there have been some bad apples as Jesus Himself only batted 11 for 12 and he is Divine. But for 2,000 years they have preached the same bible and tradition. I once turned my back but through much reading and prayer found my way back. I belive it all now, hook, line and sinker as no group of men could keep something so good together for so long without the help of God. Ask God to open your heart and He will.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Each of us in all honesty would do things differently based upon our own desires. It is quite simple really – love the Lord your God with your whole heart, love your neighbor and obey the commandments – things like not killing (unjustly), coveting neighbors goods.

This is why it is called Faith. Jesus said the gate was narrow. We have to decide if we want to try and make it through. The Church is the link to Christ. Of course there have been some bad apples as Jesus Himself only batted 11 for 12 and he is Divine. But for 2,000 years they have preached the same bible and tradition. I once turned my back but through much reading and prayer found my way back. I belive it all now, hook, line and sinker as no group of men could keep something so good together for so long without the help of God. Ask God to open your heart and He will.

To open my heart?
Well obviously I have already done that, considering ive been a christian for quite a long time now.

Either way, your post has absolutely nothing to do with what I was getting at.

That does not answer the scientific questions about him. But that obviously doesn’t seem to matter because its not in the bible. I will find out when I die.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Why would you even bother to say that? It is not 33 A.D anymore. All we have is a book and some people who claim they have seen or talked to him which might be real, or might be due to mental problems. Either way, if some guy is going to come and claim hes God, it would only make sense he would give us more proof of him being real especially in a time like this, where atheism is growing everyday and skeptics are everywhere.

Many claim the christian bible tells us much. If you wish to call that bible more “proof” fine.
If you really mean to say evidence, not so much.

 

[StrawberryJam]

To open my heart?
Well obviously I have already done that, considering ive been a christian for quite a long time now.

Either way, your post has absolutely nothing to do with what I was getting at.

That does not answer the scientific questions about him. But that obviously doesn’t seem to matter because its not in the bible. I will find out when I die.

Why take that approach? It seems a bit too easy.