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BlueShadow123
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If you knew the questions I was talking about, you would understand. I am not posting them because this is not science class and im not starting a debate.
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wanstronian
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That’s OK. I more or less worked over it.
In due time, those who abuse God’s greatest gift will be punished. Not only with hell or purgation, but in this life as well. Why did God give us natural law and morality? He gave us free will, but he chooses not to violate it. But he also gave us objective morality. to help us resist the temptation to misuse the gift he gave us, and then, perhaps, we will create laws from this and learn to stop the possible evils of free will with our own free will.
I don’t know why God doesn’t stop natural disasters. Maybe God repays those who die as a result with a trip to heaven or a short period of purgation.
IMO omnipotence is a ** requirement** for God to exist, so it must be the first or the one you’re about to list (if he exists).
As I’ve said above, the allowance of evil in the world making somebody evil is a non-sequitur. You seem to be forgetting the idea of an afterlife. Maybe that’s why people continue to, and sometimes come to, worship God even in spite of every morsel of suffering they go through - they believe he will justify them. Of course, the atheists just think they’re stupid and superstitious.
“Clearly contradicts” is only applicable if we say he is omnibenevolent and acts in this world based on that. If we believe he is not omnibenevolent, but still benevolent, or that he doesn’t or rarely intervenes in spite of omnibenevolence, your conclusion is wrecked.
This is exactly what I’m talking about - unjustifiable excuse-making to defend the indefensible, based on the evidenceless presupposition that God is both benevolent and omnipotent.
Pieman, your final paragraph is a prime example of epistemological acrobatics in order to reconcile the facts of reality with the dogma of your belief. What is the rationale for your assertions? By what process do you arrive at your conclusions regarding the nature of God?
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fhansen
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I guess I don’t understand. If you agree that your existence is good because you prefer it to the alternative (nonexistence) even in this world, then you agree-whether consciously or not- with a hypothetical creator god that your being is good. And if you agree that free will is good, something you prefer to its’ alternative, then you agree with the “wisdom” of having that as well. Of course we don’t have a choice in the matter. It’s a bit like asking whether or not it’s better to have two arms and two legs rather than some alternative. But we wouldn’t even be asking the question if not for our free will. Without this faculty, coupled with other necessities such as sentience, we’d just exist, content in our lives because we couldn’t be asking the question, “wouldn’t I be happier if…things were somehow different than they are now?” We’re part of existence-and as such we play god here on earth-acting out of hate or love or indifference but in any case having the power to right wrongs when we see them to the extent we’re capable. And to the extent that we don’t do everything within our power to make life better it’s all academic; we’d be hypocrites for blaming God or any other part of existence for not doing whatever’s in their power to do the same.
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Pieman333272
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From my view, study, and thinking about what happens in the world, the Gospel, and the Supernatural.
I want you to do something for me. Pretend you are beyond positive a Supernatural Creator created your soul (which exists) and everything and every process around you, but does not need to operate those processes directly (but can). If you think this is what I believe, it is but I’m not “beyond positive”. In giving each person a soul, this Creator gave each person on Earth free will to use for both good and evil. He chooses not to break free will, but offers humanity a way, in our nature, to have leanings and desires towards the “good” side of free will usage. Whether this thing comes from the immaterial soul, science, or God on our brains doesn’t matter for now, but acknowledge it was implemented by the Designer. Finally, believe this Designer also created two afterlives for human souls. One is eternal bliss (possibly preceded by a short period of love with suffering) and the other is eternal suffering, only for those who are raw evil in their actions. All done? Now let’s continue.
Reflect. Think now, while this Lord does allow suffering in the reality of Earth, in the reality of the future, he will repay those who suffer even by the methods he implements. I believe that those who suffer, both as a result of the sins of others and the disasters of the country and culture they are born into, will be repaid by God. This may not be considered omnibenevolent but truly is at least benevolent. If you believe in a Creator, and believe he offers morality, and great repayments, as you can observe from not only the Scriptures but the world around us, you will see God is a loving creator, if not omnibenevolent.
To you, this is stupid, childish, superstious, any number of things, but when you believe in God’s Kingdom and promises, the suffering in this world is but a petty thing that we, using the morals, resources, and love our Lord gave us, can improve for life for us and life for our brothers and sisters in Christ, whom he loves deeply, as he loves us and would appreciate our doing these for.
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JDaniel
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BlueShadow:
I’d like to give you a little bit of information that might help. We call it the Bible, as though it is a singular book. Actually, it’s a compilation of books. In the Catholic Bible (compilation) there are 73 Books (67, in the Protestant Bible). 40 plus people wrote the books. They all lived at very different times, across centuries. The three traditions (oral, written, and edited) spanned over 4,500 years and consisted of over 1,000 known people.
History books are also made by man, however, usually merely one or at most, several, persons. Science books a generally written by one to several people. Physics books are generally written by one to several people.Biographies are generally written by one to several people. Yet we have no problem believing them. Do you really think that the Bible is denied because it was written by men? Or that the stories were fiction? Or, is it possible that the naysayers have an agenda. Is it possible that some, if not all, of the naysayers actually hate God?
I don’t know, but, one thing is definite, however, the naysayers certainly, and usually, exhibit an inordinate amount of pride. That is why we must pray for them - whether they like it or not. The division between the believers and the unbelievers is strikingly apparent. If we are ever in doubt about the existence of Hell, one only needs to remind himself of this division.
God bless,
jd
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BlueShadow123
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Do you think I’m an idiot who doesn’t know this or something?
Can you read what my religion states? I already am a Christian, I was talking about what ATHEISTS think.
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JDaniel
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Blue:To open my heart?
Well obviously I have already done that, considering ive been a christian for quite a long time now.
Either way, your post has absolutely nothing to do with what I was getting at.
That does not answer the scientific questions about him. But that obviously doesn’t seem to matter because its not in the bible. I will find out when I die.
What’s your precise question?
God bless,
jd
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JDaniel
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Blue:
It sounded, from your writing, that you were suffering two things: (1) your own doubts, and/or (2) the inability to confront the atheist position. All types visit there fora. Some are well versed and others are newbies. If you’re not a newbie, my apologies to you.
BTW, I don’t think you’re an idiot. At least, not yet!
God bless,
jd
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BlueShadow123
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No, I’m good, but thanks.Blue:
It sounded, from your writing, that you were suffering two things: (1) your own doubts, and/or (2) the inability to confront the atheist position. All types visit there fora. Some are well versed and others are newbies. If you’re not a newbie, my apologies to you.
BTW, I don’t think you’re an idiot. At least, not yet!
God bless,
jd
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wanstronian
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Yes, personally and subjectively speaking, I’m glad I’m alive. I believe I contribute to the happiness of others (friends and family) and have the potential to contribute to the well-being of many people.
I don’t believe my existence has any impact on the fate of the universe, higher purpose, or other such abstract notion.
I agree that free will, if it exists, is good - again, from a personal and subjective point of view. I’m not convinced it outweighs the torment of innocents against their will. Why is one person’s free will more important than another’s?
I’m glad you put “wisdom” in scare quotes, as I don’t believe any intent was involved in the phenomenon of “free will.”
Here’s where we have to part company in our opinions. God is supposedly perfect, omnipotent, omniscient. We are not. Calling us hypocrites for blaming God does not actually absolve God of his inaction and the consequent suffering of innocents; it just attempts to grant him an exemption from judgement that, given his supposed properties, he does not deserve.
If I had the ability to warn someone they were about to get flattened by a train, and didn’t warn them, I’d be morally culpable. Moreover, if I’d set the train in motion knowing that someone would be standing on the track when it arrived, I’d be criminally culpable.
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wanstronian
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That’s something I just cannot do - it’s impossible to pretend to believe something (at least, internally). You either believe something, or you don’t. And you arrive at that belief either through a process of deduction, or through some form of desire to believe, or through unquestioning credulity, or through indoctrination.
I think you’ve illustrated my point perfectly. You have started from a position of belief that God exists, that he’s good, that he’s granted us free will and objective morality, and that there is an afterlife in which we are repaid depending on how we behave in this life.
Unfortunately, if you start with these beliefs (none of which are supported by any evidence whatsoever, of course), and are unwilling to subject them to critical thought (in other words, you want to believe these things so much you are not prepared to consider them rationally, as you would about, say, a major financial choice) then you are forced to try and reconcile the reality of evil - both natural and human - with those contradictory beliefs. The only way you can do that is to start making more assertions about the nature of God.
To me, it makes no intellectual sense to start fabricating new layers of pseudo-justification to cover the inconsistencies and contradictions in the existing ones. But I do understand that - for whatever reason - you are unable or unwilling to stop holding your beliefs, so such fabrication becomes necessary.
So one more question - if what you believe is true, why punish the rapist, murderer, pedophile etc. in this life? Why not just leave it to God? If you truly believe that God is the ultimate arbiter, then who are we to cast judgement on people?
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JDaniel
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Hello, Wan:
You’re not trying to see the bigger picture. I am not going to try to provide a rationale for God, or any of His supposed actions or, inactions. I am merely trying to look at things through bigger eyes, if that’s at all possible. In the scheme of things, our temporal lives, on this rock, are minutely shorter than the lives of mosquito larvae, in the thousands of square miles of waters in the Southeastern United States, compared to our eternity in the beatific vision. We are smaller than an electron in the universe compared to God’s Infinity. We are here, commanded to serve one another so that most of us will have a life of contentment. And, the vast majority of us do both.
You talk is though everyone is a participant in their own private Hell of interminable torture sessions. You talk as though everyone is the recipient of the very few horrors of living, whatever they may be. “Whatever thou doest to these, the least of my children, thou doest unto me,” is, perhaps, Christ’s greatest commandment. It is our obligation and duty to try to make the lives of our fellows serene. God is a very different kind of entity from us. Christ, His son, was able to perceive pain, in some way. But, I don’t see how God could.
It is one thing to know the physiological processes in the brain that form the infrastructure of the phenomenon of pain. It is quite another to actually experience pain. God cannot experience pain. He has provided in the best way possible, by putting brothers and sisters here with us to ease us through the maladies of our corporeal existences. Now, what God has provided may simply not be all that your exquisite whim might impatiently desire. I don’t know what to tell you. It works just fine for the majority of us.
We are not omnipotent, nor are we omni-benevolent. We are finite, corporeal creatures. As such, we are fraught with imperfections – as it should be. In my opinion, God has provided nearly everything we could possibly need or want. I, for one, am not ungrateful. I, for one, will work hard not to complain about each minute exigency that might afflict me. I will try my best to do something about it – not only for my sake, but for the sakes of others. If men are the cause of someone’s pain, I will try to stop them. If a wound is to blame, I will try to heal it. If they are cold, I will give them blankets or provide a fire. If they are poor, I will provide them food and money. if possible, and lead them in the direction of eventual self-help.
This is what Churches try to do. The estimates I’ve seen indicate that the Churches of America take up the slack of about 45% to 50% of the needs of the poor and underserved. I have been a witness to their outpouring. Thank God for our Churches.
Will some unfortunates slip through the cracks? No doubt. Will most get the help they need? No doubt. Will whatever is done simply not be enough for some? No doubt. Will bad men rape? No doubt. Will good men bring them to justice? No doubt. Will some suffer temporarily? No doubt. Are complainers and whiners necessary? No doubt. We live, on average, some 55 – 65 years. Science may soon help us prolong that. If it weren’t for complainers and whiners we might never improve.
How amazing, the ways that God has provided. We have brains to learn how to do for ourselves. We have a plethora of raw materials to help us do for ourselves. We have the ability to manipulate substances through chemistry. We have medical science. We have rain forests that provide unusual plants and flowers from which we have extracted miracle cures. We have drugs that quiet pain. We have Priests, psychoanalysts, counselors, physicians, EMT’s, nurses, nuns, social workers, etc., etc., to help us get through all the bad. Heck, we even have Scientology to help keep us safe from the evils of psychiatry, lobotomies, and unnecessary shock therapy.
Instead of blaming, particularly God, figure out what you can contribute. For a number of years, I was an EMT. For a number of years, I helped in other ways. I still do what I can every single day. I guess I could blame God and do nothing. I do what I do - not so that I can ingratiate myself to God, but, I do it without thinking about why. I have helped hundreds. I have restored life to the dead. Before I die, I hope to help many more. “Whatever thou doest to these, the least of my children, thou doest unto me.” – Jesus Christ, Son of God.
God bless,
jd
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Pieman333272
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OK, before I answer your question, you are making 2 predictable assumptions which are nevertheless in the way of this discussion. You presume Scripture is incorrect or 100% man made, and you presume I hold the faith solely because I was raised with it or for emotional only reasons (emotional only faith seems to be delusional and intellectual only faith is fake, a mixture is the best for a healthy spirituality and faith). I derive my conclusions about God through three things:
- Scripture, which I have decided to at least partially accept through research (which is off-topic)
- Philosophy/Natural Theology study, so the writings of great theologians on these topics and God’s nature
- Personal Experience, which I believe is, in the case of me, insufficient for this particular topic
YES! This is the point of free will (which you seem to be agnostic about) and Objective Morality! God, should you believe these originate from him (you clearly don’t) wants us to have justice in this world. Not torture, never torture, but stopping them from killing or raping is a great usage of objective morality. We must enforce what we believe is right.
If you don’t mind, I’ll return the question. If there’s no God, no afterlife, no meaning in life, why care what happens to the rapist? Why care who goes to jail? Why care if we catch the man who shot your wife? It’s all just the result of a random process, and that same random process will destroy us, forget our meaningless lives on this meaningless planet in the accident of the Universe, in a meaningless method. Why care, with no ultimate truth, no God, especially no free will?
Before you object that this is an excessively negative portrayal of atheism, let me tell you, no matter what, in a Universe with no meaning, no designer, no sustainer, and no immaterial, justice is meaningless.
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StrawberryJam
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Justice is not meaningless for the non theist.
Because, here in the USA the Justice system is not based on a specific religion’s interpretation of Justice.
You asked:
If you don’t mind, I’ll return the question. If there’s no God, no afterlife, no meaning in life, why care what happens to the rapist? Why care who goes to jail? Why care if we catch the man who shot your wife? It’s all just the result of a random process, and that same random process will destroy us, forget our meaningless lives on this meaningless planet in the accident of the Universe, in a meaningless method. Why care, with no ultimate truth, no God, especially no free will?
A non believer can care about social order and realize it preserves social harmony but also benefits the group at large, if not all of humanity. No God needed there, or eternal hell. Our lives are as filled with meaning as we allow them to be. Again, no God needed there.
Because, here in the USA the Justice system is not based on a specific religion’s interpretation of Justice.
You asked:
If you don’t mind, I’ll return the question. If there’s no God, no afterlife, no meaning in life, why care what happens to the rapist? Why care who goes to jail? Why care if we catch the man who shot your wife? It’s all just the result of a random process, and that same random process will destroy us, forget our meaningless lives on this meaningless planet in the accident of the Universe, in a meaningless method. Why care, with no ultimate truth, no God, especially no free will?
A non believer can care about social order and realize it preserves social harmony but also benefits the group at large, if not all of humanity. No God needed there, or eternal hell. Our lives are as filled with meaning as we allow them to be. Again, no God needed there.
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tonyrey
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Precisely **how **would God eliminate suffering and hunger in the world?
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PAboy57
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someone posted earlier that God doesn’t know pain.
i disagree. He is hurt with every wrongdoing done by man. Adam and Eve started his pain – His perfect creation committed the same crime lucifer did – pride. So that started evil and the pain for all of man’s time on earth.
He sent His only Son, Jesus, who felt the most imaginal pain known – He lived for 33 years knowing the day He was going to die and how it was to happen.
Imagine what that would do to your mind for that length of time. He even begged to have the cup pass by but then let the will of God the Father decide.
God the Father allowed this to happen to his only begotten Son. I humby say that God knows pain much more than we can ever imagine.
Whatever pain or evil there is in the world, for all of time, is always dealt with sooner and definetly later. We can run and hide sometimes but eventually we will be dealt with.
Some call personal pain Redemptive Sufffering. The bottom line is that you get what you deserve in the end. We should hope everyone will suffer sufficiently but also know that some won’t make it to heaven. that is just plain truth and reality.
We should do our best to prevent harm to innocent people in this life by whatever means is neccessary – that is Church teaching and is pure truth by the Holy Spirit. Don’t get hung up on life in prison when the option is available. I personally think life in prison is much worse than death but more costly to us. It is only money which the love of it seems to be the root of most evil.
Mistakes, whether supposedly paid for in this life, will certainly be paid for when judged by the King of Kings. Our job is to try and let others know this. Plant the seed and God will hopefully open their hearts to the truth.
I do find the conversation very interesting and appreciate all the time, thought and energy everyone has delivered. This is my 2 cents which I firmly believe and won’t give up on.
May those not knowing God find him soon. God Bless you.
i disagree. He is hurt with every wrongdoing done by man. Adam and Eve started his pain – His perfect creation committed the same crime lucifer did – pride. So that started evil and the pain for all of man’s time on earth.
He sent His only Son, Jesus, who felt the most imaginal pain known – He lived for 33 years knowing the day He was going to die and how it was to happen.
Imagine what that would do to your mind for that length of time. He even begged to have the cup pass by but then let the will of God the Father decide.
God the Father allowed this to happen to his only begotten Son. I humby say that God knows pain much more than we can ever imagine.
Whatever pain or evil there is in the world, for all of time, is always dealt with sooner and definetly later. We can run and hide sometimes but eventually we will be dealt with.
Some call personal pain Redemptive Sufffering. The bottom line is that you get what you deserve in the end. We should hope everyone will suffer sufficiently but also know that some won’t make it to heaven. that is just plain truth and reality.
We should do our best to prevent harm to innocent people in this life by whatever means is neccessary – that is Church teaching and is pure truth by the Holy Spirit. Don’t get hung up on life in prison when the option is available. I personally think life in prison is much worse than death but more costly to us. It is only money which the love of it seems to be the root of most evil.
Mistakes, whether supposedly paid for in this life, will certainly be paid for when judged by the King of Kings. Our job is to try and let others know this. Plant the seed and God will hopefully open their hearts to the truth.
I do find the conversation very interesting and appreciate all the time, thought and energy everyone has delivered. This is my 2 cents which I firmly believe and won’t give up on.
May those not knowing God find him soon. God Bless you.
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tonyrey
Guest
It presupposes the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity which are based on the belief that we are all created by God, not accidental byproducts of purposeless events.
“can” is the keyword. A non-believer has no rational basis for the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity but a conscience - which has no natural explanation!
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JDaniel
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Actually, that was me.
In my own defense, what I said was, ‘God is a very different kind of entity from us. Christ, His son, was able to perceive pain, in some way. But, I don’t see how God could.’For God to perceive (feel) pain he would have to have an imperfection, strictly speaking. But, he is Infinite, and Omnipotent, and Perfect. Hence, no defects.
Now, in saying that, I will admit that I don’t disagree with you, at least in part. We, humans, seem to have a predilection for anthropomorphizing in our descriptions of God and His operations. And that is precisely what you are doing. You are really saying that God feels, ‘deep sadness’ at our ungrateful and thoughtless actions here on Earth. However He does this, I don’t know. But, one thing is for sure, God has no sensory exigencies. Therefore, he is not sentient in the way corporeal beings are. He is ‘hurt,’ allegorically.
Christ, on the other hand, was sentient. He could ‘feel’ pain. But, he was also God, so, I have no doubt that his pain-threshold was relatively high. But, I’m not sure; I could be wrong.
I think it is a deleterious misnomer to characterize pain as an ‘evil.’ I think it is rather universally admitted that evil is not a thing in itself, but rather is a condition of a thing. If we think about it for a moment, it is impossible for us to have a painful or, bad, leg, without first having a leg. Obviously, the badness is merely a condition of the leg. Upon further thought, it becomes certain to us, that this condition implies the absence of something rather than the presence of something. In this case, it is the absence of a sound leg.
Now, while it is true that evil is an absence, it is always the absence of ‘good.’ ‘Pain,’ on the other hand, while certainly an absence, is more than that. It is also a positive. For example, a painful toothache is a positive in that it alerts us that the tooth needs to be cared for. A chronic stomach ache alerts us to the fact that a person’s gut needs to be attended to. It may be the bell-ringer for cancer, for example. It is therefore, giving us advance notice. In fact, the evil of cancer is not its propensity for aggressively eating away at our flesh, but rather, it is the absence of the proper structure of the affected flesh. Cancer is usually cured, and/or prevented, by the application and addition of that which returns our flesh to its proper structure.
Well, but we can and, some of us no doubt have, seen those that appear to suffer beyond sufficiency. In my opinion, it is very difficult for women to be evil. No sexism intended, but, I have considered my wife and my daughters and my sister and my aunts, and see little that makes me believe they are, or ever were truly evil. In saying this, I know that some can. But, in general, women seem to have a natural (or, God-given) propensity to ‘do unto these, the least of my children . . ., etc.’ Yet, it seems that women suffer more from such things as cancer, excessive adipose tissue, pain at the hands of their mates, etc., than do males. Perhaps not, but, it seems that way to me. Anyway, that’s off-topic.
Agreed. Good statement.
Hear! Hear!
God bless,
jd
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JDaniel
Guest
I have a suspicion that you could repeat these Truths until you are blue in the face, and most still would not get it.
God bless,
jd
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StrawberryJam
Guest
It is not a matter of not “getting it”. It is a matter of rejecting the logical fallacy presented.I have a suspicion that you could repeat these Truths until you are blue in the face, and most still would not get it.
God bless,
jd
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