The problem of evil that isn't

[sw85]

From a Catholic blogger and worthy read (h**ttp://bonald.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/theodicy/); submitted for your thoughts and discussion:

Question: Why does God allow evil?

Easy: I don’t know. Next question?

Really, I’m kind of surprised that people regard this as a serious challenge to faith. Besides the monstrous impiety of presuming to judge God, just imagine what it would take to have a serious intellectual problem. God has no obligations to creation; it’s shear gratuity that He decides to keep us in existence from one moment to the next. Given that He doesn’t have to create anything, if He does create something, it’s hard to complain that what He made isn’t good enough. But suppose we demand that God have some reason for the perfections He has withheld from granting to His creation, even though this is the height of ingratitude. What would I have to know to say that God’s doing or not doing such-and-such doesn’t make sense? I would have to know why He created the world, what His overall plan for creation is, which of course I don’t. I would have to know what effect such-and-such will have not only on the entire future history of mankind, but on all peoples’ immortal souls, on the choirs of angels and the legions of demons, and perhaps on planes of existence of which I cannot even imagine. It’s absurd to imagine I would ever know enough to criticize God.

The point of the “why,oh why,is there evil?” is moral posturing. The person who says it is trying to show that he is more morally sensitive than theists. “Why,oh why,is there sin?” means he is more outraged by sin than theists, and hence more righteous. “Why,oh why,is there suffering?” means he is more outraged by suffering than theists, and hence more compassionate. It’s easy, it seems, to be more compassionate than all the saints. One might think that, if anyone had a right to pull the more-compassionate-than-thou act, it would be people like Vincent de Paul, Las Casas, or Mother Theresa, but they must not have been as compassionate as all of these rich college students who are so scandalized by the suffering of innocents that they decide to sleep in on Sundays.

This post neatly captures some of my own thoughts re: the “problem of evil,” which I’ve always felt was an exercise in monstrous hubris.

“If I were God, I would do things just so; things are not just so; therefore, there is no God. Get it? Because if God existed, He’d be just like me. Because I’m so great.”

Sure ya are, slick.

 

[Humbly_Hopeful]

Thank you for posting this. I am not nearly so eloquent or intelligent, but in my Philosophy of Religion course this was my attempted argument when the question of why God allows sin/bad things to happen. If only I had this article last November!

 

[englishredrose]

why does God allow evil?

Because he made us as free human beings and not robots. He wants us free to love him and not programmed to love him. Along comes the trappings of responsibility and therein lies evil. We have to learn to work together to manage evil so that it don’t overwhelm us which in turn helps us to stay close to God.Without evil we wouldn’t have the desire of the need to stay close to God would we…

 

[april32010]

thanks,great post!

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Yes!! Thanks for this!!

Great post. I hope I can remember some of this next time I encounter such people. Good thing they are not on CAF.

 

[Trebor135]

Great post. I hope I can remember some of this next time I encounter such people. Good thing they are not on CAF.

Hokomai should be along shortly.

 

[fhansen]

From a Catholic blogger and worthy read (h**ttp://bonald.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/theodicy/); submitted for your thoughts and discussion:

This post neatly captures some of my own thoughts re: the “problem of evil,” which I’ve always felt was an exercise in monstrous hubris.

“If I were God, I would do things just so; things are not just so; therefore, there is no God. Get it? Because if God existed, He’d be just like me. Because I’m so great.”

Sure ya are, slick.

Doesn’t quite answer the question though-a question even theists ask. And this is why the Church, too, refers to the question of evil as a mystery, one not easy to fully resolve.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Hokomai should be along shortly.

…and Serious and Lokbreanna the ‘vanic pagan’

c’mon guys…take the bait!

 

[sw85]

Doesn’t quite answer the question though-a question even theists ask. And this is why the Church, too, refers to the question of evil as a mystery, one not easy to fully resolve.

It’s not intended to answer the question. In fact it endorses the Church’s stance – that it’s a mystery, i.e., it is a question to which an answer exists but which we are incapable of discerning because of our own limitations. If it’s a mystery, though, it’s definitely not a problem, i.e., a question which has no answer because it is a product of a contradiction in the theological system from which it arises. And if it’s not a problem then… well, it’s not a problem. Hence the title of the post.

…and Serious and Lokbreanna the ‘vanic pagan’

c’mon guys…take the bait!

Lest anyone think otherwise, I wasn’t baiting, just sharing an interesting post I found.

 

[capoly]

“If I were God, I would do things just so; things are not just so; therefore, there is no God. Get it? Because if God existed, He’d be just like me. Because I’m so great.”

Typical nonsense. First, it has nothing to do with “our greatness”, it has everything to do with out rationality. Second, no one criticizes “God”, we criticize what the believers say about God, and there is no “hubris” there. We are all perfectly qualified to evaluate the assertions made by the believers. The point is that the theists assert God’s “goodness”, where the word “goodness” MUST mean exactly the same when applied to humans and when it is applied to God. Otherwise the sentence “God is good” is meaningless.

Now, a good and loving being does not allow unnecessary or gratuitous pain and suffering. No amount of appeal to “free will” can invalidate that basic principle. We routinely interfere with the freedom of other humans when we can foresee that an evil act is being planned, and when we have the power to interfere - and to hell with the freedom of the criminals!

Just read The tale of the twelve officers which gives a synopsys of the different and futile attempts to explain away the “problem of evil”.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Doesn’t quite answer the question though-a question even theists ask. And this is why the Church, too, refers to the question of evil as a mystery, one not easy to fully resolve.

Yes…Read the book of Job. Read C.S. Lewis’ A Grief Observed.. It’s easy to criticise people for being troubled by the question of the suffering of innocents, accusing them of hubris----until, for example, a loved one suffers horribly and unremittingly; then I dare say you may question God as did Job.

God is not afraid of our honest questions. Suffering is in part a mystery in this life.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Lest anyone think otherwise, I wasn’t baiting, just sharing an interesting post I found.

Oh…I know…just feeling light hearted today.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Typical nonsense. First, it has nothing to do with “our greatness”, it has everything to do with out rationality. Second, no one criticizes “God”, we criticize what the believers say about God, and there is no “hubris” there. We are all perfectly qualified to evaluate the assertions made by the believers. The point is that the theists assert God’s “goodness”, where the word “goodness” MUST mean exactly the same when applied to humans and when it is applied to God. Otherwise the sentence “God is good” is meaningless. Now, a good and loving being does not allow unnecessary or gratuitous pain and suffering. No amount of appeal to “free will” can invalidate that basic principle. We routinely interfere with the freedom of other humans when we can foresee that an evil act is being planned, and when we have the power to interfere - and to hell with the freedom of the criminals! Just read The tale of the twelve officers which gives a synopsys of the different and futile attempts to explain away the “problem of evil”.

Not nonsense…

Your post is proof.
You are defining God in your terms, pointing out His ‘violations’ in your terms and determining what is necessary in your terms. Exactly the arrogance the original post points out.

So, thank you for that.

 

[fhansen]

Yes…Read the book of Job. Read C.S. Lewis’ A Grief Observed.. It’s easy to criticise people for being troubled by the question of the suffering of innocents, accusing them of hubris----until, for example, a loved one suffers horribly and unremittingly; then I dare say you may question God as did Job.

God is not afraid of our honest questions. Suffering is in part a mystery in this life.

Yes, I agree with this-it’s a very human question-not necessarily presumptuous at all.

I like the Churchs’ position, one we can all probably agree with :
**324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”. The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.

309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.**

For myself it’s an awesome reality that God, Himself, was willing to experience evil, taking on the same woes, or worse, that we all suffer in this world via His life, passion, and death.

 

[Lochias]

Hokomai should be along shortly.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Yes, I agree with this-it’s a very human question-not necessarily presumptuous at all.

I like the Churchs’ position, one we can all probably agree with :
**324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”. The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.

309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.**

For myself it’s an awesome reality that God, Himself, was willing to experience evil, taking on the same woes, or worse, that we all suffer in this world via His life, passion, and death.

A very good post.

 

[fhansen]

A very good post.

Thanks. I’m not meaning to dismiss the OP as without having valid points, however, especially as a reaction to the use of certain arguments often brought up by atheists. I just meant to bring more to the table and qualify those positions a bit.

 

[User124]

From a Catholic blogger and worthy read (h**ttp://bonald.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/theodicy/); submitted for your thoughts and discussion:

This post neatly captures some of my own thoughts re: the “problem of evil,” which I’ve always felt was an exercise in monstrous hubris.

“If I were God, I would do things just so; things are not just so; therefore, there is no God. Get it? Because if God existed, He’d be just like me. Because I’m so great.”

Sure ya are, slick.

This post just didn’t explain the problem of evil. We humans aren’t perfect, all loving or all powerful, If I’m as a weak human able to create a better world in my own imagination, why wouldn’t a perfect god do that in the real world?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

-Epicurus, 341 BC, Samos – 270 BC, Athens

1. If an all-perfect god exists, then he is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good

2.If he is all-knowing, then he must know where and when evil is happening in the world

3.If he is all-powerful, then he must have the ability to stop evil in the world

4.If he is all-good, then he must will to end evil in the world

5.Evil exists in the world

Therefore,

6.An all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good god does not exist.

 

[He_Man]

This post just didn’t explain the problem of evil. We humans aren’t perfect, all loving or all powerful, If I’m as a weak human able to create a better world in my own imagination, why wouldn’t a perfect god do that in the real world?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

-Epicurus, 341 BC, Samos – 270 BC, Athens

1. If an all-perfect god exists, then he is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good

2.If he is all-knowing, then he must know where and when evil is happening in the world

3.If he is all-powerful, then he must have the ability to stop evil in the world

4.If he is all-good, then he must will to end evil in the world

5.Evil exists in the world

Therefore,

6.An all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good god does not exist.

But God gave us perfection, free of evil, and we chose a different path. God could reset the world, and the result would be the same - that’s the lesson of Eden. So to what end? The only option is to allow a world where we can choose not to do evil, thus repairing what we caused to begin with.

What benefit is there to us or God to create programmed robots who do not err, not because we choose not to, but because we cannot. But that isn’t desire, or love.

I can program my computer to play back responses that are always exactly what i want to hear, but it still isn’t satisfying in the way it is when i get those responses from a person who chooses to love me.

 

[User124]

But God gave us perfection, free of evil, and we chose a different path. God could reset the world, and the result would be the same - that’s the lesson of Eden. So to what end? The only option is to allow a world where we can choose not to do evil, thus repairing what we caused to begin with.

What benefit is there to us or God to create programmed robots who do not err, not because we choose not to, but because we cannot. But that isn’t desire, or love.

I can program my computer to play back responses that are always exactly what i want to hear, but it still isn’t satisfying in the way it is when i get those responses from a person who chooses to love me.

None of us made a choice of different path ( If you mean Adam and Eve story) we are not Adam or Eve, supposing that they were real. When people commit crimes, we put them in jails for their own faults, we do not put their children. Is our human justice system in this case better than the godly justice in Eden story?

Perhaps pain could be a better word! If God is perfect and loving, how can he stand watching his creatures suffering ? He can create a free will world of happiness without misery for he is an all powerful and loving! free will is not an excuse.
Our pain and fear are natural things and not a part of a supernatural plan, animals don’t have a free will in the theological meaning of it and they experience pleasure and pain, “Good and Evil”, how is this possible without free will? If Good and Evil aren’t related to our pain and happiness, then what are they related to? Masturbation?