The problem of evil

[seeker777]

Here is a simplistic answer to why evil exist or why God allows disasters to happen.

Life is simply a test. Which will you choose; sin and death; or goodness and Heaven. How will your respond to sin and evil ? with love charity and forgiveness or will you be indifferent; embrace evil or perpetrate evil ?.

We’re supposed to believe, that the creator of the universe, supposedly omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient God creates very fallible and weak beings. He then puts these pathetic creatures to the test, but watching to see if they pass his cosmic exam. Those who fail the test, spend eternity in the depths of hell? Why would God play such games with us, especially when he knows how prone to sin his creation really is.

Your suggesting that God created our nature, God allows sin in the world, and then he sits around testing us like he’s some bored 13 year old in the sky?

Do you test your children, and when they screw up, do you reject them, do you throw them into a lake of fire? Of course you don’t, so why do you think a perfect God would do so?

Many of the saints and martyrs embraced suffering (and many even inflicted it upon themselves - which is grossly misunderstood) offering up their pain for the salvation of others.

When a 104 year old lady has fallen, broken her hip beyond repair and then lies in a hospital bed, barely concious, in absolute agony and let me be expressly clear…the lady knows only agony and this goes on for over a week before she finally dies…that suffering benefits no one. If all of this is real, God would simply stop her heart on the first day, yet God does not.

When we see suffering and death, we learn a little about what Hell and Purgatory may be like. Plus it gives us the opportunity to be charitable and understanding. It gives us a chance to help others and sympathize with their pain and sorrow, to offer comfort and empathy…

What of those who die painfully, alone and who die terribly? You seem to be suggesting that others suffer, so that you may learn about hell, so that you may be kind to those who suffer. Tens of thousands of people die everyday, awful deaths, lonely deaths, painful deaths…no one is around to learn anything about their suffering or to offer them kindness.

Entire genocides have gone on, while the world has stood by and watched.

I agree with you, your answer was simplistic and far from being rational.

 

[tobias]

The Old Testament is filled with heinous crimes and the Biblical authors attributed them to God.

God has used nature often in the OT to hurt and in some cases, kill his children. Here are a few examples off the top of my head.

God has innocent babies killed, (I think the first born sons) in Egypt during the plagues and other things he rained down upon Pharoa and his innocent citizens.

Is enslaving a people for 400 years your idea of innocence? The plagues got progressively worse and all of Egypt saw these signs and had the opportunity to listen and believe what Moses told them. Being the last of a series of plagues that all had come true means that the Egyptians allowed this to happen to their own children.

God rains fire and brimstone down upon Sodom and three other cities. The problem is that babies, pregnant women and toddlers also had to be living in those cities and were also slaughtered.

So are you implying that pregnant women and mothers cannot be evil? Again how does their unwillingness to take in the 3 strangers amount to a fault on God’s part. The 3 were sent to find 10 nrighteous people and found 1 man, but still let him take his wife and daugters.

God turned Lots wife into a pillar of salt because she looked at the destructive display behind her.

Though given a free ride with her husband, she turnexd back to evil.

God killed everything on earth by using a very slow method, a world wide flood. God could have simply and immediately willed all beings out of existence, or immediately given everyone a heart attack. Again, babies, pregnant ladies and toddlers also die in the flood.

The world looked on and laughed at Noah. You thhink that in the time it took him and his family to build the ark that his reason for doing so was not known throughout the populated world?

God killed everyone in Sodom and the other cities because there were not enough righteous people living. The problem is that Lot is considered righteous, even though he offered his daughters up to be raped and abused by the mob, in order to protect a couple of strange guys. Then the daughters later had sex with Lot, God being Omniscient, would have known that they would do this…but they all got to live, while everyone else was violently killed.

You really don’t understand righteousness, do you?

Permitting hell to exist, and permitting infinite punishment for his children, for finite sins committed while on earth.

No, the unforgivable sin is not finite. It is eternally consequential.

Adam and Eve - God gave Eve child birth " pain" as punishment for having disobeyed him. He also chucks his kids out of the Garden for having made a mistake, instead of forgiving them.

God clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins (the 1st sacrifice for sins) and gave them temporal punishment, you know, like people used to spank thier children for doing wrong. Is pain as punishment unjust?

There are other violent actions that are attributed to God.

I’m fairly sure the OT also has God expressing that he is Jealous and vengeful. Those aren’t great qualities, even for lowly humans.

As a husband I am jealous when others try to woe my wife and vengeful (seek justice) if evil is done to her. Of course God is jelous (protective) of his bride and vengeful (seeks justice) on those who treat her with malice.

God is love, but why are all those violent actions attributed to him?

There are many acts of VIOLENCE attributable to soldiers and police, but I don’t say out of malice, more oft than not out of love.
Either you were never or were very poorly cathecized.

 

[ribozyme]

Here is a simplistic answer to why evil exist or why God allows disasters to happen.

This is not Heaven…at least not yet. IF evil, suffering and death ceased to exist then we would by definition be in Heaven. We lost that with sin.

Life is simply a test. Which will you choose; sin and death; or goodness and Heaven. How will your respond to sin and evil ? with love charity and forgiveness or will you be indifferent; embrace evil or perpetrate evil ?

When we see suffering and death, we learn a little about what Hell and Purgatory may be like. Plus it gives us the opportunity to be charitable and understanding. It gives us a chance to help others and sympathize with their pain and sorrow, to offer comfort and empathy.

Well, I would rather give that up and simply eliminate poverty and suffering.

Also the immense amount of poverty and suffering makes me indifferent; I do not have the resources to even make a minor dent to the enormous magnitude of suffering in this world. It does not seem to be a solvable problem.

 

[seeker777]

Is enslaving a people for 400 years your idea of innocence? The plagues got progressively worse and all of Egypt saw these signs and had the opportunity to listen and believe what Moses told them. Being the last of a series of plagues that all had come true means that the Egyptians allowed this to happen to their own children…

There is no archeological evidence, nor historical evidence that this slavery was a reality.

If a parent negligently leaves their child unattended in the yard and a predator takes the child. The parent shares responibility for the heinous act. The predator is also responsible for the heinous act. To give God a free pass whilst having babies killed, is so contradictory, as you would never say " The parent allowed the kidnapping to happen to their child" and then say nothing about the predator who actually committed the horrific action.

So are you implying that pregnant women and mothers cannot be evil? …

The babies in their bellies. No, babies in mommies bellies are not evil.

Though given a free ride with her husband, she turnexd back to evil…

Did the Angles give her fair warning, if you look at the fireworks display, God will kill you! No, they didn’t. Present a train wreck in front of someone, they’re going to look. Her punishment for human weakness and for not understanding the gravity of her actions…God killed her in front of her daughters and husband.

The world looked on and laughed at Noah. You thhink that in the time it took him and his family to build the ark that his reason for doing so was not known throughout the populated world?..

Do you really believe a 6 month old baby would have been laughing at Noah? Do you really believe that the Inuit would have had an inkling of Noah living in the middle east? Do you really believe that the Vikings would have heard about some guy living in the middle east and building a big boat? Something tells me that a baby that was born the day of the flood or a 5 year old boy would have had no idea that God was about to kill them.

You really don’t understand righteousness, do you?.

I know what’s it’s not. Turning your daughters over to be raped. That ain’t righteous.

No, the unforgivable sin is not finite. It is eternally consequential.

Is pain as punishment unjust?

Physical pain? Not in a civilized society. Let’s argue that it is a just punishment. Is it just to condemn every woman for the rest of time to experience the punishment of pain, for one woman’s fintie sin? When a thief steals, do we punish his family or do we punish the thief? Once again, why does God get a free pass when he does not even subscribe to basic principals of justice?

 

[Oakleaf]

Basically the problem is this:

A six year old is raped and murdered by the family. Why is this allowed by God, when the child is innocent but has been afflicted by terrible evil? Why was the horror of Nazi Germany allowed? What good came to those innocents who suffered terribly and died? Free will, they say, must allow for the possibility of evil.

This question assumes that suffering evil is itself an evil. I am not sure that assumption is true. To the contrary, suffering evil gives one an inner understanding of suffering that allows us to exercise humane compassion.

For adults to expect God to give us a Yellow Brick Road in life with no problems in life is falsely childish. Because adults do have moral responsibility (whether they acknowledge it or not), this kind of question symbolizes a fundamental moral crossroads: does one accept the difficulties of life (acknowledging that all human beings suffer) as opportunities for compassion and growth? Or rather does a person invert their position in suffering, by inflicting suffering on other people to selfishly protest the cruelty of one’s own life?

Evil is a given. Suffering is a given, it is a condition of human existence. Whether evil implies the good is the question every human decides in life.

 

[tobias]

There is no archeological evidence, nor historical evidence that this slavery was a reality.

But you were arguing against scripture, which is, at least, a partially historical document.

If a parent negligently leaves their child unattended in the yard and a predator takes the child. The parent shares responibility for the heinous act. The predator is also responsible for the heinous act. To give God a free pass whilst having babies killed, is so contradictory, as you would never say " The parent allowed the kidnapping to happen to their child" and then say nothing about the predator who actually committed the horrific action.

Death is inevitable to all human beings. That evil was enjoined on the human race by origonal sin, consequently, even the morally innocent carry this evil. The ‘innocent’ are actually spared the consequence of personal moral evil in this case. The ‘angel of death’ will find us all, and the story in no way states a horrific death, but recounts the wailing of those who did not heed moses. I would say a parent would be guilty if they let their child stay in a building they knew was going to be demilished. An event was planned, the specifics were made known, and the outcome could have been avoided.

The babies in their bellies. No, babies in mommies bellies are not evil.

See above.

Did the Angles give her fair warning, if you look at the fireworks display, God will kill you! No, they didn’t. Present a train wreck in front of someone, they’re going to look. Her punishment for human weakness and for not understanding the gravity of her actions…God killed her in front of her daughters and husband.

Yes, the angels told them both not to look bac k ‘lest you be consumed’. She chose death.

Do you really believe a 6 month old baby would have been laughing at Noah? Do you really believe that the Inuit would have had an inkling of Noah living in the middle east? Do you really believe that the Vikings would have heard about some guy living in the middle east and building a big boat? Something tells me that a baby that was born the day of the flood or a 5 year old boy would have had no idea that God was about to kill them.

You would place the vikings at the time if Noah? Sticking with the biblical account, people were not spread over the earth with different languages till after the flood due to the incident at the tower of babel. Nice try though.

I know what’s it’s not. Turning your daughters over to be raped. That ain’t righteous.

The story does not say he was righteous for doing this, righteousness is credited apart from failures.

Physical pain? Not in a civilized society. Let’s argue that it is a just punishment. Is it just to condemn every woman for the rest of time to experience the punishment of pain, for one woman’s fintie sin? When a thief steals, do we punish his family or do we punish the thief? Once again, why does God get a free pass when he does not even subscribe to basic principals of justice?

Your calling the origional sin finite? My wife would tell you that the joy of motherhood makes the pain of child birth insequential (and she’s experienced it 5 times).
When my teenager turned to drugs, the whole family suffered because of his choice. The theif analogy is not applicable.
Justice does not eliminate the basic laws of cause and effect. Which principle of justice has God broken?

 

[Aleii]

This question assumes that suffering evil is itself an evil. I am not sure that assumption is true. To the contrary, suffering evil gives one an inner understanding of suffering that allows us to exercise humane compassion.

For adults to expect God to give us a Yellow Brick Road in life with no problems in life is falsely childish. Because adults do have moral responsibility (whether they acknowledge it or not), this kind of question symbolizes a fundamental moral crossroads: does one accept the difficulties of life (acknowledging that all human beings suffer) as opportunities for compassion and growth? Or rather does a person invert their position in suffering, by inflicting suffering on other people to selfishly protest the cruelty of one’s own life?

Evil is a given. Suffering is a given, it is a condition of human existence. Whether evil implies the good is the question every human decides in life.

Egregious suffering that one has the power to stop, but does not stop, is a big problem, IMHO. How does the little girl who was raped and murdered, or the gassed prisoner, or the mother who has watched her 2 children starve to death and is about to die herself, get to experience any benefit from “better understanding of compassion” when they are dead? This isn’t about a random citizen complaining about a traffic jam, or working 3 jobs, or getting cancer, these are horrendous acts, or massive scale suffering that we are talking about. While we try to look for the benefit in everything, I’m sure each one of us would readily give our lives to prevent the senseless horrors of Nazi Germany from ever happening in the first place.

 

[Aleii]

Who was more evil? The Nazi perpetrators or those who stood by and allowed them to commit their unspeakable crimes?

Both have fault, but IMHO, the active perpetrators are the far worse of the two. There is some psychological background for bystander inaction - see situations like Kitty Genovese

 

[seeker777]

But you were arguing against scripture, which is, at least, a partially historical document.?

Nothing I say will sink in with you.

If men committed the acts of God as written in the Old Testament, those men would be considered among the most evil, sinister and monstrous humans that ever lived. They would be locked up forever or put to death.

Because it is God, you look on in awe and God not only gets a free pass for having committed those actions, but he is glorified.

Such a contradiction, such an odd double standard. No matter.

 

[tobias]

Nothing I say will sink in with you.

I know the feeling.

 If men committed the acts of God as written in the Old Testament, those men would be considered among the most evil, sinister and monstrous humans that ever lived. They would be locked up forever or put to death.

Yes, since one is perfect and the other is not, the absence of a double standard would be ridiculous. If men commited the acts of God they would not be men, they would be God.
So no matter how evil creation was, God should have let it be?
God takes unto himself those that will the good, and lets those that do not will the good be taken by destruction.
What you seem to fail to realize is that we, as the saying goes, ‘suffer for the sins of the fathers’, but are not condemned by them. If there were any in these groups in the examples you’ve laid out that will the good (inseperable from God), then God would take them unto His self.

Because it is God, you look on in awe and God not only gets a free pass for having committed those actions, but he is glorified.

Such a contradiction, such an odd double standard. No matter.

I am in greater awe of His mercy than His justice.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Nothing I say will sink in with you.

If men committed the acts of God as written in the Old Testament, those men would be considered among the most evil, sinister and monstrous humans that ever lived. They would be locked up forever or put to death.

Because it is God, you look on in awe and God not only gets a free pass for having committed those actions, but he is glorified.

Such a contradiction, such an odd double standard. No matter.

The Old Testament God is no more. When He gave his life for mankind as Jesus, the new covenant began and the old laws died and the new relationship with God began. Thru Christ we have a merciful God.

 

[seeker777]

The Old Testament God is no more.

Where did he go?

You mean he didn’t really kill all those people?

I thought God was infinite and never changed?

Anyway, this is my last post.

It has been made abundantly clear that my questions are treated as nothing more than an annoyance.

 

[davidv]

The Old Testament God is no more. When He gave his life for mankind as Jesus, the new covenant began and the old laws died and the new relationship with God began. Thru Christ we have a merciful God.

I believe God is immutable, unchanging, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

How can this God (today’s), not be the same God of the OT?

 

[tobias]

I believe God is immutable, unchanging, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

How can this God (today’s), not be the same God of the OT?

God did not change, our accessability and knowledge did. For Christ is the ‘Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.’