The problem of evil

[mymamamary]

May atheists say that evil is natural. They say that there is no supernatural reality causing the evil. I object.

If evil is natural, then how come we cannot stop it? We are so advanced in all fields of life, why then can we not stop evil? Unless of course you concede and admit that this power of evil is unstopabble by human measures. We can prevent it to some degree, but not stop it with human power. Only by the power of the Cross can we stop evil. A medicine stronger than the Crucifix of CHRIST doesnt exist, and anything less is incapable of stopping it.

I dare you to look into the eyes of hitler, I dare you to look at the pictures of the holocaust and the rwanada genocide and tell me that evil is a mere natural reality. In fact, I think the human race is doomed to repeat all this because of the fact that we are ignorant, apathetic and at worse hostile to the fact that EVIL IS A SUPERNATURAL REALITY called: satan.

 

[Pitcharan]

May atheists say that evil is natural. They say that there is no supernatural reality causing the evil. I object.

If evil is natural, then how come we cannot stop it? We are so advanced in all fields of life, why then can we not stop evil? Unless of course you concede and admit that this power of evil is unstopabble by human measures. We can prevent it to some degree, but not stop it with human power. Only by the power of the Cross can we stop evil. A medicine stronger than the Crucifix of CHRIST doesnt exist, and anything less is incapable of stopping it.

I dare you to look into the eyes of hitler, I dare you to look at the pictures of the holocaust and the rwanada genocide and tell me that evil is a mere natural reality. In fact, I think the human race is doomed to repeat all this because of the fact that we are ignorant, apathetic and at worse hostile to the fact that EVIL IS A SUPERNATURAL REALITY called: satan.

Maybe an atheist is already under the power of evil, in which case he/she will only say things under the manipulated influence of evil. I do not see any purpose in debating with someone who is under the grip of evil. I would just pray for the person.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

May atheists say that evil is natural. They say that there is no supernatural reality causing the evil. I object.

The first statement would be wrong. Evil is not natural. They are correct in the second statement. God does not cause evil, it is an absence of a good which should be present. He allows it because he will make a greater good out of it. Though we may not know what that good is.

If evil is natural, then how come we cannot stop it? We are so advanced in all fields of life, why then can we not stop evil? Unless of course you concede and admit that this power of evil is unstopabble by human measures. We can prevent it to some degree, but not stop it with human power. Only by the power of the Cross can we stop evil. A medicine stronger than the Crucifix of CHRIST doesnt exist, and anything less is incapable of stopping it.

Evil will not be stopped as long as men have free will. It will end only with the end of the world. Yes, the Cross is the answer as far as there is an answer.

 

[Courtney_R]

Sadly, satan is the master of lies, and we humans are very gullible. One of the ways he spreads evil is by actually convincing us that evil, hell, and he himself don’t exist. If people don’t view hell as a real consequence of their actions, it’s easier to shirk our moral responsibilities, doing our own will rather than God’s. (Let’s face it, it’s downright difficult to be good sometimes!) So I guess my reasoning is that those who don’t believe in a real supernatural evil have already bought what satan’s selling. Maybe we should pray for them!

 

[mymamamary]

Then that means that they are blinded by the devil and his lies. It is as if our LORD offers us clean water to drink and they would say “No, we are fine, we have some good tasting sand”. However I want to see an atheist challenge this proposition. I’m serious. I get son angry over injustice like hitler etc, and then they come along and say “Thats all natural” Oh really? I dare you to look into those eyes of evil, I dare you to look at the macheted corspes of the innocent Rwandan genocide victims and still tell me with a straight face that there is no supernatural evil.

Why can’t we stop evil? If evil is a natural problem, how come we aren’t able to deal with it? We are so advanced in every field of life that this should be no problem…

 

[mymamamary]

The first statement would be wrong. Evil is not natural. They are correct in the second statement. God does not cause evil, it is an absence of a good which should be present. He allows it because he will make a greater good out of it. Though we may not know what that good is.

Evil will not be stopped as long as men have free will. It will end only with the end of the world. Yes, the Cross is the answer as far as there is an answer.

Exactly. Then how come they dont realise that evil is a supernatural reality? That there is at this moment, a cataclysmic war going on for their souls, and we are all in the crosshairs… How come we couldnt stop hitler. How come we couldnt stop stalin? or pol pot or mao tse tsung? or the genocides throught the world?

Because we cannot bring ourselves to admit that there is a hell, there is a satan who is the father of lies and behind all of this evil. The only way you can stop satan is to look at a Crucifix. You WILL NOT be able to deter evil for very long if you try to stop satan WITHOUT the Crucifix.

 

[loozcannon]

Exactly. Then how come they dont realise that evil is a supernatural reality? That there is at this moment, a cataclysmic war going on for their souls, and we are all in the crosshairs… How come we couldnt stop hitler. How come we couldnt stop stalin? or pol pot or mao tse tsung? or the genocides throught the world?

Because we cannot bring ourselves to admit that there is a hell, there is a satan who is the father of lies and behind all of this evil. The only way you can stop satan is to look at a Crucifix. You WILL NOT be able to deter evil for very long if you try to stop satan WITHOUT the Crucifix.

I think it all boils down to “hardness of hearts.” In this day and age, it seems no one wants to be held accountable for their immortal soul, or they try and rationalize away their beliefs or actions without acknowledging God Almighty. People expect higher standards of others, yet do not want their standard for others to apply to themselves. So, when you have no inate sense (maybe fear of?) accountability, all of these things stem from it.

I believe the origin of evil is indeed supernatural, but I think it perpetuated by said hardened hearts. I’ve seen it alot the thought of “Well so long as it doesn’t affect me” seems to run rampant all over the place.

Maybe even a failure of the whole “love thy neighbor” thing?

 

[Regina_Love]

Yes, people don’t believe in evil. They might agree something is bad because of the consequences. Then** they try to cling to their sin**, and remove the consequences. Like i’m going to keep sleeping around, and try to mitigate the consequences of my evil choice by using contraceptives. I’ll use the pill (which kills thousands of women a year) which will over ride my entire hormone system to prevent pregnancy. I’ll use the condum, which i wrongly assume will protect me from stds. I will likely get an abortion if I do become pregnant, which goes against my very nature to nurture & protect my young. I will be used, and use others, out of fear, possibly murder my own child, which will lead down, down, down, to depression…

Evil is wrong on so many levels the consequences cannot be removed from it!

Only when we live the faith are we free to live in harmony with God, and the nature he instilled in us! Only then are we happy, and joyful.

 

[cornbread_r2]

The first statement would be wrong. Evil is not natural. They are correct in the second statement. God does not cause evil, it is an absence of a good which should be present. He allows it because he will make a greater good out of it. Though we may not know what that good is.

Evil will not be stopped as long as men have free will. It will end only with the end of the world. Yes, the Cross is the answer as far as there is an answer.

The ends justify the means?

 

[fred_conty]

The ends justify the means?

The greater good is that man is allowed to chose and be what he is. To preserve the very nature of man as he was created. If he were not allowed to chose evil, then his nature would be different.

Just a thought.

 

[JDaniel]

The greater good is that man is allowed to chose and be what he is. To preserve the very nature of man as he was created. If he were not allowed to chose evil, then his nature would be different.

Just a thought.

Fred:

Yep. We’re either men or machinery.

God bless,
jd

 

[mymamamary]

The ends justify the means?

No, Our LORD isnt niccolo macchiaveli. Our LORD never wishes for evil to happen, but man and his free will can and does. However, Our LORD wants to “salvage” the situation even then, and trumps the bad by bringing a greater good out of it.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Exactly. Then how come they dont realise that evil is a supernatural reality?

…]

In this quote you were apparently agreeing with another poster who had written:

Evil will not be stopped as long as men have free will.

Unless you assert that free choice is a supernatural ability, I’m not seeing how you haven’t undermined your own case. You might claim that a malevolent supernatural entity encourages men to do evil, but it seems to me that the act of free choice and its consequences, good or bad, still abide in the natural realm.

I’m also not thrilled with the idea that unbelievers are thought to be somehow manipulated by Satan and his minions, as some have implied in this thread. Maybe they think they’re being kind by giving unbelievers an excuse for their alleged un-Godly ways, but I’ve seen that concept expanded upon and used too often to, literally, demonize “the others” and justify horrible actions in God’s name.

The greater good is that man is allowed to chose and be what he is. To preserve the very nature of man as he was created. If he were not allowed to chose evil, then his nature would be different.

Just a thought.

So the greater good of mankind’s free will (the ends) justifies God permitting mankind to do evil things (the means). As I understand it though, if it is within my reasonable and lawful power to prevent evil, it would be my moral obligation to do so – even if that would violate someone else’s free will. If it is my moral obligation, but not God’s, doesn’t that apparent double standard that do serious injury to the notion of an objective and absolute moral standard?

 

[mymamamary]

In this quote you were apparently agreeing with another poster who had written:

Evil will not be stopped as long as men have free will.

Unless you assert that free choice is a supernatural ability, I’m not seeing how you haven’t undermined your own case. You might claim that a malevolent supernatural entity encourages men to do evil, but it seems to me that the act of free choice and its consequences, good or bad, still abide in the natural realm.

I’m also not thrilled with the idea that unbelievers are thought to be somehow manipulated by Satan and his minions, as some have implied in this thread. Maybe they think they’re being kind by giving unbelievers an excuse for their alleged un-Godly ways, but I’ve seen that concept expanded upon and used too often to, literally, demonize “the others” and justify horrible actions in God’s name.

So the greater good of mankind’s free will (the ends) justifies God permitting mankind to do evil things (the means). As I understand it though, if it is within my reasonable and lawful power to prevent evil, it would be my moral obligation to do so – even if that would violate someone else’s free will. If it is my moral obligation, but not God’s, doesn’t that apparent double standard that do serious injury to the notion of an objective and absolute moral standard?

Free Choice is a supernatural gift I would argue. Otherwise, the natural would be to be like the animals. Irrational and incapable of choosing good or evil. Also, It doesnt matter if you are or aren’t thrilled by the idea that unbelievers are manipulated, and even believers, its a fact you have to accept. I dare you to watch a speech by hitler and then look at pictures of the holocaust and still have the nerve to tell me that this is all natural. How come we cannot stop evil then? Disease, Poverty, Warfare? If this is all material, then how come we are so powerless in the face of evil? I dont think an athiest has a convincing enough answer out there. We are advanced to degrees that SHOULD have eradicated evil long ago if this was all natural. However, we are faced with more evil than ever.

Also, to your second objection I say: Our LORD doesnt enjoy watching the evil, so as a Loving FATHER HE desires to correct and bring a good out of a very nasty situation. However, HE will not force HIS WILL on us, hence the reason we have free will. The evil we do is by ourselves and to ourselves. We are obligated to stop evil. The reason I feel that some countries should be tried for crimes against humanity. However, Our LORD loves and respects us so much that HE would never infringe on the one gift that HE gave us that was meant to be ours: Free Will. It is not your duty to tell Our LORD on how to react with good or evil, it is yours and mine. HE gave us the code to follow to ensure peace and love, HE sent HIS ONLY SON to die for us, to save us from the second death. HE did everything HE could in HIS POWER. HE did not however, violate our free wills. HE would never. That is where the concept of DIVINE JUSTICE kicks in. I see no double standard except the one that the moral relativists try to force on us.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Exactly. Then how come they dont realise that evil is a supernatural reality? That there is at this moment, a cataclysmic war going on for their souls, and we are all in the crosshairs… How come we couldnt stop hitler. How come we couldnt stop stalin? or pol pot or mao tse tsung? or the genocides throught the world?

Because we cannot bring ourselves to admit that there is a hell, there is a satan who is the father of lies and behind all of this evil. The only way you can stop satan is to look at a Crucifix. You WILL NOT be able to deter evil for very long if you try to stop satan WITHOUT the Crucifix.

I know it is hard to understand.but what we call evil is an absence of a good that should be there. Satan and the devils really do exist. We call them evil by way of contrast to what is good. Their actions exhibit such a lack of good that they have been eternally condemned. The spiritual war you talk of is the chaos resulting from the lack of good order in personal behavior which we call sin.

We can’t stop sin. Only God can do that but he couldn’t do it without depriving us of free will. By accepting our crosses we can perhaps mitigate the effects of sin with God’s grace.

Certainly, most Christians believe in hell.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Free Choice is a supernatural gift I would argue. Otherwise, the natural would be to be like the animals. Irrational and incapable of choosing good or evil.

That’s not an argument. It’s an assertion.

Also, It doesnt matter if you are or aren’t thrilled by the idea that unbelievers are manipulated, and even believers, its a fact you have to accept.

That’s just another assertion and no, I don’t have to accept it.

I dare you to watch a speech by hitler and then look at pictures of the holocaust and still have the nerve to tell me that this is all natural.

Hitler and his henchmen look pretty human to me and I see nothing in their philosophy that would lead me to believe that it wasn’t a purely a product of twisted human imagination.

How come we cannot stop evil then? Disease, Poverty, Warfare? If this is all material, then how come we are so powerless in the face of evil? I dont think an athiest has a convincing enough answer out there. We are advanced to degrees that SHOULD have eradicated evil long ago if this was all natural. However, we are faced with more evil than ever.

Our failure to eradicate evil might also reasonably be seen as more of a refutation of the notion that a omnipotent, benevolent holy spirit leads and guides us than an indictment of a species just a few thousand generations away from living off bush carrion and less than a hundred away from thinking that rain falls through tiny windows in the sky.

As a matter of fact though, there is more than enough evidence that our lot, in general, has become incrementally better and that we’re even becoming less violent.

Also, to your second objection I say: Our LORD doesnt enjoy watching the evil, so as a Loving FATHER HE desires to correct and bring a good out of a very nasty situation. However, HE will not force HIS WILL on us, hence the reason we have free will. The evil we do is by ourselves and to ourselves.

That doesn’t seem to leave much room for Satan then.

We are obligated to stop evil. The reason I feel that some countries should be tried for crimes against humanity. However, Our LORD loves and respects us so much that HE would never infringe on the one gift that HE gave us that was meant to be ours: Free Will.

If I did not infringe on the free will of the maniac down the street and stop him from murdering my child – especially if all I had to do was will it to stop – I would be rightfully condemned by any sane human I know and, as I understand it, by God as well. But, according to you and others, it seems, God is exempt from a similar responsibility because it is hoped – on faith – that he will use that tragedy for some greater good in the sweet bye and bye. While that seeming ad hoc rationalization might make perfect sense to you and not represent a double standard, surely you can appreciate how someone else might reasonably disagree.

…]

 

[tonyrey]

Fred:

Yep. We’re either men or machinery.

That sums it up magnificently!

 

[Semiotic]

I’d say it’s the pop-psychologists who are responsible for the erosion of peoples belief in the existence of Satan and hell. As a result, sadly Christians have let their guard down. New age might have a hand in that too. They have created this aura of ‘peace peace peace’, believe in yourself, everything is okay, etc. So it’s now embarrassing for people to admit the existence of such, even some Christians denying their LORD’s teaching.

 

[mymamamary]

That’s not an argument. It’s an assertion.

That’s just another assertion and no, I don’t have to accept it.

Hitler and his henchmen look pretty human to me and I see nothing in their philosophy that would lead me to believe that it wasn’t a purely a product of twisted human imagination.

Our failure to eradicate evil might also reasonably be seen as more of a refutation of the notion that a omnipotent, benevolent holy spirit leads and guides us than an indictment of a species just a few thousand generations away from living off bush carrion and less than a hundred away from thinking that rain falls through tiny windows in the sky.

As a matter of fact though, there is more than enough evidence that our lot, in general, has become incrementally better and that we’re even becoming less violent.

That doesn’t seem to leave much room for Satan then.

If I did not infringe on the free will of the maniac down the street and stop him from murdering my child – especially if all I had to do was will it to stop – I would be rightfully condemned by any sane human I know and, as I understand it, by God as well. But, according to you and others, it seems, God is exempt from a similar responsibility because it is hoped – on faith – that he will use that tragedy for some greater good in the sweet bye and bye. While that seeming ad hoc rationalization might make perfect sense to you and not represent a double standard, surely you can appreciate how someone else might reasonably disagree.

…]

We are becoming less and less violent? Did you really just say that? LESS AND LESS VIOLENT? ppfffttt, the biggest pack of lies I have ever heard. Then why is Isreal and Iran and Turkey all on the brink of war? How come murder rates arent going anywhere but up ? How about wars in Africa? Drug cartels in Mexico? yep, society is defintely getting more and more violent as the moral breakdown continues. Our culture glorifies violence, just look at the UFC and its fans.

You also dont seem to have a grasp on the concept of Free Will. Our LORD gave us this one gift, this one gift is the one HE will not take from us. That is why we are free to refuse even HIM. Also, it is not hoped on Faith that Our LORD will bring a greater good out of it, HE WILL bring a greater good out of it. I still don’t see the double standard, I only see that you dont have a good grasp of the concept of free will. Also, there is alot of room for satan in the equation. We either choose between Our LORD and satan with our free will. When we choose evil (satan) then satan himself has been tempting us to that point, to make us give in and choose his path. satan cannot directly force us against our wills, our wills are our own, however, he can influence our choices. Also, to look into the eyes of hitler and stalin, the ideologies they followed (stalin’s communism was athesitic, it also was responsible for the lives of 25 million innnocent people) and to NOT call that demonic is silly. Also, finally, I have yet for you to give me ONE SOLID ANSWER, not theory(ies), on why we cannot stop evil, if evil is merely a natural problem. I doubt you will be able to give a solid convincing answer. NOT an Amibigous one, but a clear and concise answer explaining the problem of evil and how it is a natural problem, that is fixable on natural terms.

Finally, in direct response to your 3rd claim, the HOLY SPIRIT does lead us. Hence the reason why the Catholic Church has always survived every form of evil. We have weathered every storm while cultures, empires and religions have come and gone…

I have debated and won against many atheists, however one common thread I’ve noticed is this. I like wool. Its cozy, its warm, and the animal that produces is rather cute. However, I do not like wool over my eyes, but you however, seem to enjoy having the wool over your eyes.

 

[cornbread_r2]

We are becoming less and less violent? Did you really just say that? LESS AND LESS VIOLENT? ppfffttt, the biggest pack of lies I have ever heard. Then why is Isreal and Iran and Turkey all on the brink of war? How come murder rates arent going anywhere but up ? How about wars in Africa? Drug cartels in Mexico? yep, society is defintely getting more and more violent as the moral breakdown continues. Our culture glorifies violence, just look at the UFC and its fans.

Perhaps you missed my hyperlink to Stephen Pinker’s recent book, The Better Angels of Our Nature, in my previous post. It’s generally regarded as providing a good, emperically-based demonstration that, in fact, we are as a species becoming less violent – despite what we might otherwise feel to be the case. Here’s another article from The Christian Science Monitor offering a few explanations why the crime rate in the US has - in fact - fallen dramatically over the past two decades or so. You’ll note in that article that even TCSM doesn’t credit a supernatural cause for that decline.

You also dont seem to have a grasp on the concept of Free Will. Our LORD gave us this one gift, this one gift is the one HE will not take from us. That is why we are free to refuse even HIM. Also, it is not hoped on Faith that Our LORD will bring a greater good out of it, HE WILL bring a greater good out of it. I still don’t see the double standard, I only see that you dont have a good grasp of the concept of free will. Also, there is alot of room for satan in the equation. We either choose between Our LORD and satan with our free will. When we choose evil (satan) then satan himself has been tempting us to that point, to make us give in and choose his path. satan cannot directly force us against our wills, our wills are our own, however, he can influence our choices.

If Satan can influence our decisions in some way or extent, doesn’t that suggest that our vaunted free will is somewhat less than free?

Also, to look into the eyes of hitler and stalin, the ideologies they followed (stalin’s communism was athesitic, it also was responsible for the lives of 25 million innnocent people) and to NOT call that demonic is silly.

Argumentum ad oculae? And you call me silly?

Also, finally, I have yet for you to give me ONE SOLID ANSWER, not theory(ies), on why we cannot stop evil, if evil is merely a natural problem. I doubt you will be able to give a solid convincing answer. NOT an Amibigous one, but a clear and concise answer explaining the problem of evil and how it is a natural problem, that is fixable on natural terms.

First of all, why do you think that we should be able to stop all evil by naturalistic means? We’re by far the smartest animals on the planet, but we’re not now, nor will we ever be, supermen. (Heck, for all of its moderators and software, even CAF can’t stop random spammers from posting links.) Even if we had unlimited resources and could put every human on Earth under 24/7 surveilance some evil would still likely happen. In other words, I’m conceding that we are incapable of stopping all evil. The problem for you, however, is that our inability to stop evil does not automatically prove that evil is Satanic in origin anymore than it would prove that evil is the result of naughty pixies in my crab apple tree. It also does not automatically prove that evil can only be stopped by supernatural means. (See argument from ignorance). You’d still have to prove that evil is Satanically caused and that something like intercessory prayer can cause a statistically significant decrease in the occurrence of evil. Good luck with both of those.

Finally, in direct response to your 3rd claim, the HOLY SPIRIT does lead us. Hence the reason why the Catholic Church has always survived every form of evil. We have weathered every storm while cultures, empires and religions have come and gone…

And yet the RCC would still seem to be beset with all of the same problems and victim to the same foibles that have beset all purely human-guided institutions throughout history. In addition, longevity, in and of itself, does not prove godliness – unless you’re conceding that the ancient culture that built and maintained Gobekli Tepe was also guided by the Holy Spirit.

I have debated and won against many atheists, however one common thread I’ve noticed is this. I like wool. Its cozy, its warm, and the animal that produces is rather cute. However, I do not like wool over my eyes, but you however, seem to enjoy having the wool over your eyes.

In your first paragraph you seemed to imply that I was lying and now you seem to be implying that I enjoy being deceived. If you think that is a legitimate debating/discussion tactic, it’s perhaps no wonder that you have such a high regard for your skill in that arena.