The problem of evil

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If satan influences our wills doesn’t that mean that our will are less than free?

No, because in the end, its you who still makes the choice.

Also, Yes, there are cases of demonic possesions that would prove that evil is satanic in origin. I know that the tendency from your side of the fence is that perhaps the patient is mentally ill or schizophrenic?

The Church realises this and that is why BEFORE the Priest is even sent out to the victim, a thorough MEDICAL diagnosis is performed. If the physcologist says that “this beyond the field of science”, THEN and ONLY THEN is the Priest sent out.

^^^^

This would impy that the above arguement shows that evil is satanic in origin. Not all of it, because we are our own victim at times, however, the vast majority is usually the evil ones fault.

Also in response to your question, If there is no supernatural realm, if Reality is PURELY materialist as I assume you would argue, yes, Im interested in why cannot we stop evil? Isnt one of the goals of humanism to perfect the human race? It doesnt look like it. The Middle east is on the brink of a possible cataclysmic war, which could drag us into the tube. This all demonstrates what Im harping on about. We are attempting to perfect our race, humanity, without the LORD. We are trying to create utopias, however, there is always a violent conflict in doing so. Not so much external as internal at times. Some of the ELITE rich people will swindle, cheat and do anything to achieve their “status”. In the result they prostitute their souls and are emptier than ever. I wonder, if Reality is purely material, then how come the Material never satisfies?? The broken lives, marriages etc.?

People who are addicted to cosmo, porn, money, power and fame all fall off their pedestals while society helps bring them down? Is this all part of a PURELY material Reality?
 
cornbread_r2 said:
Perhaps you missed my hyperlink to Stephen Pinker’s recent book, The Better Angels of Our Nature, in my previous post. It’s generally regarded as providing a good, emperically-based demonstration that, in fact, we are as a species becoming less violent – despite what we might otherwise feel to be the case. Here’s another article from The Christian Science Monitor offering a few explanations why the crime rate in the US has - in fact - fallen dramatically over the past two decades or so. You’ll note in that article that even TCSM doesn’t credit a supernatural cause for that decline.

If Satan can influence our decisions in some way or extent, doesn’t that suggest that our vaunted free will is somewhat less than free?

Argumentum ad oculae? And you call me silly?

First of all, why do you think that we should be able to stop all evil by naturalistic means? We’re by far the smartest animals on the planet, but we’re not now, nor will we ever be, supermen. (Heck, for all of its moderators and software, even CAF can’t stop random spammers from posting links.) Even if we had unlimited resources and could put every human on Earth under 24/7 surveilance some evil would still likely happen. In other words, I’m conceding that we are incapable of stopping all evil. The problem for you, however, is that our inability to stop evil does not automatically prove that evil is Satanic in origin anymore than it would prove that evil is the result of naughty pixies in my crab apple tree. It also does not automatically prove that evil can only be stopped by supernatural means. (See argument from ignorance). You’d still have to prove that evil is Satanically caused and that something like intercessory prayer can cause a statistically significant decrease in the occurrence of evil. Good luck with both of those.

And yet the RCC would still seem to be beset with all of the same problems and victim to the same foibles that have beset all purely human-guided institutions throughout history. In addition, longevity, in and of itself, does not prove godliness – unless you’re conceding that the ancient culture that built and maintained Gobekli Tepe was also guided by the Holy Spirit.

In your first paragraph you seemed to imply that I was lying and now you seem to be implying that I enjoy being deceived. If you think that is a legitimate debating/discussion tactic, it’s perhaps no wonder that you have such a high regard for your skill in that arena.
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You are forgetting one thing. Of course, the visible Catholic Church has struggled/struggles. Im not going to deny that in any shape,way or form. However, the leaders who have did blunders in the Church should have ruined it, as others have in other purely human institutions as you say, also, the Church, if purely material and not guided by anything, should have collapsed under the Roman empire. It would never have made it past the 12 Apostles. Now look at where we are:

We have fed, housed and clothed the most humans on the planet

We are the largest Denomination of Christianty

We have faced stormy waters, in and outside of the Church. Bad Popes, leaders, persecution etc., and look at where we are now : Huge and growing. We have produced role models that secular society could never hope of making. St. Francis of Assisi, reconciled the sultan, fed the lepers and the homeless, loved Our LORD with every fiber of his being and he gave all that he had away. Meanwhile, the rich elite of hollywood, has EVERYTHING that your materialistic heart could desire. Yet they are the saddest people in the world. They also are the most susecptible to suicide.

Dont you see any indicators??

If this is all material, then I have to ask: Why will the material never satisfy??
 
The proofs for exorcisms are many. Just make sure that you look at the Church documented cases. The others may not be true. This proves that evil is satanic in origin. Evil is a problem that I have yet to hear a Materialist answer. Sorry, your answer to this problem will not lie in biological or physical answers. Supernatural problem=Supernatural cure. Also, in a final response to your free will problem, Our LORD will never force HIMSELF on us. HE is horrified to see the evil that goes on, however, you seem to forget that their is still DIVINE JUSTICE to be dealt out.

Also, I wonder, if the Colorado shootings in June/July were some mere chemical imbalances in the brain? Or an underlying Spiritual Problem?
 
Also, lets not get over our heads. Lets stop SOME evil at first. How about a cure for aids? Cancer? How about poverty? We have the materialistic means and yet do nothing about poverty? War?

I would love to see the world at least pick ONE issue and perfect it. I doubt it would yield any fruitful results…
 
Science cannot verify everything. Its why the atheistic scienctists throw up their hands and say " Oh, the LORD doesnt exist". Its also the reason why science can neither deny or verify HIS EXISTENCE. Want the reason why??

Because Our LORD is not a part of this universe, to be measured and verified. HE is independent, transcendent, HE is uncaused and has caused all to exist.

(got that off of youtube by Fr. Pontifex)

Logically, do you not think that If Our LORD is truly what HE says HE IS, do you not think that we would not by any natural means discover upon HIM? except of course the natural moral law, laid into our hearts, outlining certain OBJECTIVE moral truths, e.g murder.

But if you try to deny any sort of objective truth, then I have a question:

"If the fact that there is no Objective truth, is this Objectively true that there are NO objective truths?

If there are no objective truths, then this means that this is objectively true. Its either true or a lie. It cannot be both. However, then this would make this statement a lie, which would then mean that perhaps there ARE objective truths other than this one…
 
mymamamary:

I’m satisfied with what I’ve written so far in response to the OP.

Have a good one.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
How so?
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Actually I totally whiffed that one - trying to do to many things at once, had something else on the brain.

But I am curious what point you were trying to make when you said “the end justifies the means?”

What end?
What means?
 
snarflemike said:
Actually I totally whiffed that one - trying to do to many things at once, had something else on the brain.

But I am curious what point you were trying to make when you said “the end justifies the means?”

What end?
What means?
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Check my subsequent posts in this thread.
 
mymamamary said:
Science cannot verify everything. Its why the atheistic scienctists throw up their hands and say " Oh, the LORD doesnt exist". Its also the reason why science can neither deny or verify HIS EXISTENCE. Want the reason why??

Because Our LORD is not a part of this universe, to be measured and verified. HE is independent, transcendent, HE is uncaused and has caused all to exist.

(got that off of youtube by Fr. Pontifex)

Logically, do you not think that If Our LORD is truly what HE says HE IS, do you not think that we would not by any natural means discover upon HIM? except of course the natural moral law, laid into our hearts, outlining certain OBJECTIVE moral truths, e.g murder.

But if you try to deny any sort of objective truth, then I have a question:

"If the fact that there is no Objective truth, is this Objectively true that there are NO objective truths?

If there are no objective truths, then this means that this is objectively true. Its either true or a lie. It cannot be both. However, then this would make this statement a lie, which would then mean that perhaps there ARE objective truths other than this one…
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👍 Irrefutable logic! 🙂
 
  1. Moral evil is a supernatural reality which is not recognised by science.
  2. Science is amoral because it is restricted to natural events.
  3. Moral evil is the result of the abuse of free will.
  4. Moral evil is often the result of culpable ignorance.
  5. Moral evil is the result of insufficient love.
 
I’m not quite sure of the points you’re trying to make.

In the classical philosophical problem, evil is divided into two broad classes - Natural evils and Moral evils.

In the case of Natural evil, we have things like landslides, tuberculosis, childhood cancer, parasites, etc.

In the case of Moral evil we have things like rape, murder, genocide, theft, adultery.

Alvin Plantinga did a very good job of showing why God might have no choice but to allow natural evil, namely, it allows free will. Even though all these things like murder and rape are bad, it is an even bigger loss to give up free will. I’d disagree with him here but many people think it is a perfectly fine objection.

If you believe Satan is the origin of all evil, why does God not stop satan, surely, its within God’s power? If God created and designed everything, surely, this means he designed tuberculosis, smallpox, parasites, etc. I think you’d have a hard time defending these things.
 
kingpomba said:
I’m not quite sure of the points you’re trying to make.

In the classical philosophical problem, evil is divided into two broad classes - Natural evils and Moral evils.

In the case of Natural evil, we have things like landslides, tuberculosis, childhood cancer, parasites, etc.

In the case of Moral evil we have things like rape, murder, genocide, theft, adultery.

Alvin Plantinga did a very good job of showing why God might have no choice but to allow natural evil, namely, it allows free will. Even though all these things like murder and rape are bad, it is an even bigger loss to give up free will. I’d disagree with him here but many people think it is a perfectly fine objection.
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If you gave up free will you wouldn’t be able to disagree with anything! 😉
If you believe Satan is the origin of all evil, why does God not stop satan, surely, its within God’s power?
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Satan is not the origin of all evil. Moral evil originates with those who choose it.

God could stop evil but then love wouldn’t exist because it presupposes free will.
If God created and designed everything, surely, this means he designed tuberculosis, smallpox, parasites, etc. I think you’d have a hard time defending these things.
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God didn’t create or design everything directly. As David Hume pointed out there are bound to be purposeless events in an immensely complex universe subject to the laws of nature
 
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