The problem of evil

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robjh22

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I just can’t get past this problem: There is a loving God, I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.

I’ve seen evil explained as a consequence, variously, of human freedom, mental illness, and Satan. What does it matter? It hurts the victims just as much, no matter why it happens, and I don’t see God intervening like we know he could. The evil tends to overwhelm every sense I have that life is good on balance. Even if there were only a small amount of evil, what would it matter to the victims, like those three poor girls imprisoned in the Ohio house of Raul Castro?

The evil that bothers me most, and which I consider the worst, takes the form of child abuse. It is pervasive and I can’t see a loving god allowing it to occur.

I welcome any ideas, but I don’t think I will be satisfied being “at peace” with the issue. I mean, it would be fine for me to see “oh, now I get it!” but it wouldn’t help the abused child who has absolutely no one who can help him.

What in the world am I going to do here? Thanks. Sorry if I am bumming anyone out, but this issue is keeping me from being the Catholic I know I should be.
 
We were created by God to be creatures with free will and He therefore doesn’t deal with evil by depriving us of our freedom. Instead, He deals with evil through his perfect justice. Those who’ve been victims of evil will be compensated for their suffering in the next life (or possibly in this one). Their eternal reward in Heaven will be so super-abundant that whatever suffering they bore on earth will seem to be something momentary and light by comparison. (See 2 Cor 4:17) Those who are perpetrators of evil will likewise receive their due.
 
God is supposed to stay the murderer’s bullet.
God is supposed to stop the sexual abuse of a child.
God is supposed to prevent a theft.
God is supposed to silence the liar.
God is supposed to kill the abortionist.
God is supposed to paralyze the pornographer.
God is supposed to halt the suicide.
God is supposed to kill free will.
God is supposed to blah, blah, blah.

Enough said? 🤷
 
To shorn-bms: thanks. I hope you’re right about the afterlife.

“Blah blah,” eh? I hope that yours is not the typical attitude on this forum, Charlemagne. If it is, you’ll be rid of me and my “blah blah-ing” soon enough.
 
I think this is more about the whys but in case the “problem of evil” is causing you to doubt the existence of God then let me explain the paradox that the “problem of evil” creates.

To say that “the evil in the world” shows that God doesn’t exist one would have to have an objective world to contrast it too. To believe in an objective moral value or duty is to believe in a God because without God no objective moral value or duty exists. Or in other words, without God there is no moral right and wrong, so the world cannot be called morally right or wrong unless God exists. It can only be called morally right or wrong if God exists.

Said another way. An inch is only an inch because a ruler exists. Something can’t fall short of an inch if there is no ruler to define an inch. So a length doesn’t prove that the ruler doesn’t exist, it just proves that the length is not an inch.
 
Our Lord Jesus Christ said to take up the cross and follow Him.
Our God is a mystery, His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts.
Our small brains will never understand our Creator. We are to know, love and serve Him, not to second guess Him. This is where our faith and trust are tested. I BELIEVE OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD.
 
rob

The "blah blah blahs were not to ridicule you, if that’s what you’re thinking. They are just to show how endless and pointless these expectations will be if we line them up to infinity.
 
To believe in an objective moral value or duty is to believe in a God because without God no objective moral value or duty exists.
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Agreed. I make this same point, which you state more elegantly than I have, with atheists, who are left with no choice but to deny the existence of morality. I certainly can’t do that.

But I’m not an atheist, so no, the “problem of evil” (why the quotes? Evil certainly is a problem, to me as a matter of faith, and to its victims as a matter of undeserved pain and suffering) is not “causing me to doubt the existence of God.”

Thanks.
 
robjh22 said:
I just can’t get past this problem: There is a loving God, I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.

I’ve seen evil explained as a consequence, variously, of human freedom, mental illness, and Satan. What does it matter? It hurts the victims just as much, no matter why it happens, and I don’t see God intervening like we know he could. The evil tends to overwhelm every sense I have that life is good on balance. Even if there were only a small amount of evil, what would it matter to the victims, like those three poor girls imprisoned in the Ohio house of Raul Castro?

The evil that bothers me most, and which I consider the worst, takes the form of child abuse. It is pervasive and I can’t see a loving god allowing it to occur.

I welcome any ideas, but I don’t think I will be satisfied being “at peace” with the issue. I mean, it would be fine for me to see “oh, now I get it!” but it wouldn’t help the abused child who has absolutely no one who can help him.

What in the world am I going to do here? Thanks. Sorry if I am bumming anyone out, but this issue is keeping me from being the Catholic I know I should be.
Click to expand...
How about going with what George Burns says in “Oh, G-d!”? That is, if EVERYTHING were perfect and beautiful here on earth, we wouldn’t be able to appreciate the beauty, so some contrast is necessary. After all, earth is not heaven, and it is up to us, with the help of G-d, to make things better. Then there’s the free will argument, which you’ve heard before.
 
robjh22 said:
Agreed. I make this same point, which you state more elegantly than I have, with atheists, who are left with no choice but to deny the existence of morality. I certainly can’t do that.

But I’m not an atheist, so no, the “problem of evil” (why the quotes? Evil certainly is a problem, to me as a matter of faith, and to its victims as a matter of undeserved pain and suffering) is not “causing me to doubt the existence of God.”

Thanks.
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Good to hear Rob:thumbsup:, I wasn’t sure how it was bothering you so I wanted to cover that base just in case.

I put it in quotes because it has become the nomenclature for a famous argument.
 
The "blah blah blahs were not to ridicule you, if that’s what you’re thinking. They are just to show how endless and pointless these expectations will be if we line them up to infinity.
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Thanks for the clarification, Charlemagne. I don’t care for your tone, but it’s a free country.

I can’t argue that it’s pointless to expect God to serve as a an invariably protective guardian angel, a “celestial butler” as the Jewish commentator Dennis Praeger says. But I probably do a lot of pointless things. Would that it were otherwise!
 
robjh22 said:
“Blah blah,” eh? I hope that yours is not the typical attitude on this forum, Charlemagne. If it is, you’ll be rid of me and my “blah blah-ing” soon enough.
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Please don’t take that as an insult, and it would be unfortunate for us all if we were rid of you because of it. I see that Charlemagne II has already responded.

In discussions about “the problem of evil,” people often say things like “If I were God, I would _________ (fill in the blank),” but the problem is that we do not understand God’s ways, and would probably make a complete mess of things if we were in charge. That was my understanding of his message.

Here is a recent article that might be helpful. So much has been written, I can’t say this is the best article, but it concisely expresses a hopeful perspective:
from Catholic Answers: The Problem of Evil, by Matt Fradd, July 9, 2013
God bless you.
 
How about going with what George Burns says in “Oh, G-d!”? That is, if EVERYTHING were perfect and beautiful here on earth, we wouldn’t be able to appreciate the beauty, so some contrast is necessary.
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That’s a good and reasonable answer, to be sure. I don’t want to get into the details of what currently bothers me, which I see all the time due to my work, and which all of us encounter either in the news or maybe in our own lives, or even encountered in our childhood, but let’s just say that it’s far worse than “some contrast.” Sometimes I find myself saying, “maybe the child isn’t in as much pain and terror as I imagine I would be,” but I know it’s ridiculously wishful thinking.

Thanks for your answers, everyone. Look, I don’t want to belabor the point or infect others with my negative outlook, so I’ll say no more, cogitate further on your answers, and pray for “the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.” What’s the alternative, right?

God bless.
 
For all human beings to have free will we must be given a choice between good and evil. If you only offer that which is good, then good is the only thing that can be chosen, and therefore there is no choice, and therefore there is no will. So, the choice has to be there, hence, why the Tree of Knowledge was in the Garden of Eden.

So, with this choice, some are bound to choose evil. But don’t let the existence of evil stop you, because God is greater. Even though there are temporary effects of evil here on earth, God can use it to bring about a greater good. This doesn’t make the evil a good thing, but it shows how merciful and powerful God is. Those who do evil will be served justly in the end, whether or not they are justly punished here on earth.
 
I am sure you have heard the reasoning of free will, human nature, etc. They are all valid. I would just like to give you an another way it was explained to me since I once heard the problem of evil put rather interestingly. Saints were equated to Navy Seals. Many choose to take up the responsibility of following God, like many people wish to become Navy Seals. Both groups are tested as they hope to fulfill their roles. Both are tested in a crucible to burn away the impurities and reveal only the precious metal. If there were no evil or hardships, how would we show our true love and devotion before God? I struggled with this at one point so I will not try to say it’s anything but difficult. Keep questioning, but also keep searching for the answers. I will pray for your faith. God bless.
 
robjh22
I’ve seen evil explained as a consequence, variously, of human freedom, mental illness, and Satan. What does it matter?
There is a loving God, I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.
Click to expand...
Did God create evil? No! So how did it come about?
Don’t you know that some angels, who have free-will, refused to adore and assent to God’s design and thus began evil with Satan the ring leader?

Adam and Eve began evil on God’s earth created without evil when they disobeyed His command, thus severely weakening human nature. By His suffering, crucifixion and death, Christ redeemed fallen human nature and by instituting His Church gave mankind the ability and capability to rise to unlimited heights of perfection as saints even on earth through Her Eucharist (Holy Mass), Christ’s seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of His Pope, Her Tradition and all of Her Sacred Scriptures.

What are you doing to overcome/ensure that evil in the world is combated?
 
robjh22 said:
I just can’t get past this problem: There is a loving God, I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.

I’ve seen evil explained as a consequence, variously, of human freedom, mental illness, and Satan. What does it matter? It hurts the victims just as much, no matter why it happens, and I don’t see God intervening like we know he could. The evil tends to overwhelm every sense I have that life is good on balance. Even if there were only a small amount of evil, what would it matter to the victims, like those three poor girls imprisoned in the Ohio house of Raul Castro?

The evil that bothers me most, and which I consider the worst, takes the form of child abuse. It is pervasive and I can’t see a loving god allowing it to occur.

I welcome any ideas, but I don’t think I will be satisfied being “at peace” with the issue. I mean, it would be fine for me to see “oh, now I get it!” but it wouldn’t help the abused child who has absolutely no one who can help him.

What in the world am I going to do here? Thanks. Sorry if I am bumming anyone out, but this issue is keeping me from being the Catholic I know I should be.
Click to expand...
I am not sure this will help you, but I watched Fr. Barron’s commentary on the movie World War Z which presents a very insightful perspective on the idea of evil (sin) as passed on by ”propagation” rather than by imitation. What I find compelling about this view (and it is a traditional Catholic one, given precise clarity following the Council of Trent) is that it identifies evil as something deeper and more profound or “systemic” than most of us care to admit. It also clearly depicts the solution as much deeper and more “to the core” than most superficial human based solutions would venture. It also sheds a small glimmer of light, at least for me, on why the solution had to be as profoundly deep and cosmos-shattering as God becoming man - having to "go into the dysfunction” (this will make more sense to you after you view the commentary) and dying on the cross in order to procure the “antidote.”

One thing for certain concerning the problem of evil is that we do not fully grasp the profundity of the situation and cannot propose adequate solutions because we just can’t fathom the depth of the issue. Our solutions are woefully inadequate precisely because the depth of the problem is beyond our capacity to diagnose properly and prescribe effective treatment.

Fr. Barron’s commentary also sheds light on why a “sacramental” solution is proposed in Catholic tradition - the antidote “from outside.”

Link: wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/World-War-Z-A-commentary-by-Fr-Barron.aspx

Another very good presentation of the “problem” is CS Lewis’ The Problem of Pain.
 
I will definitely check it out Plato. Thanks.

on edit: Now I have checked it Father Barron’s review of World War Z, and it was excellent. It was also refreshing to see a theologian finding something good, deep and important in a Hollywood movie. As an aside, I can think of several Brad Pitt movies where he is thrust into an unusually difficult human dilemma and struggles honorably to
try and resolve it (Troy, Moneyball, and now Z).

As to this:
  • Saints were equated to Navy Seals. Many choose to take up the responsibility of following God, like many people wish to become Navy Seals. Both groups are tested as they hope to fulfill their roles. *
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Excellent analogy, RedFox, especially as I was thinking this very morning that if I were to be asking these questions about evil to, say, St. Patrick or St. Francis, I suspect they would respond with something like, “Yes, interesting question and all. But what are you doing to lessen the impact of evil?”

Let me say that you guys are really helping and I do appreciate it.
 
rob

If you have not read it, you might want to try the Book of Job. I read it several months ago while preparing for open heart surgery and found it immensely consoling. 👍

No matter what evils surround you, trust in the Lord. 👍
 
Hope this one helps 🙂

Romans 5:3-5
3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character and hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
 
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