The problem of evil

[Randy_Carson]

I just can’t get past this problem: There is a loving God, I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.

I’ve seen evil explained as a consequence, variously, of human freedom, mental illness, and Satan. What does it matter? It hurts the victims just as much, no matter why it happens, and I don’t see God intervening like we know he could. The evil tends to overwhelm every sense I have that life is good on balance. Even if there were only a small amount of evil, what would it matter to the victims, like those three poor girls imprisoned in the Ohio house of Raul Castro?

The evil that bothers me most, and which I consider the worst, takes the form of child abuse. It is pervasive and I can’t see a loving god allowing it to occur.

I welcome any ideas, but I don’t think I will be satisfied being “at peace” with the issue. I mean, it would be fine for me to see “oh, now I get it!” but it wouldn’t help the abused child who has absolutely no one who can help him.

What in the world am I going to do here? Thanks. Sorry if I am bumming anyone out, but this issue is keeping me from being the Catholic I know I should be.

This has been bothering you for 50 years, and you are looking for an answer in an online forum???

C’mon…you’ve heard all the explanations, you’ve read dozens of books on the subject…you could probably explain the theories better than we can.

So, what is your best explanation for the problem of evil?

Not that you accept it or agree with it…I get that you don’t…but what is the best you’ve heard or come up with so far?

 

[robjh22]

Yes, thanks Charlemagne and Jack. I need to adjust my perspective at times. Okay, ALL the time.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I think this is more about the whys but in case the “problem of evil” is causing you to doubt the existence of God then let me explain the paradox that the “problem of evil” creates.

To say that “the evil in the world” shows that God doesn’t exist one would have to have an objective world to contrast it too. To believe in an objective moral value or duty is to believe in a God because without God no objective moral value or duty exists. Or in other words, without God there is no moral right and wrong, so the world cannot be called morally right or wrong unless God exists. It can only be called morally right or wrong if God exists.

Said another way. An inch is only an inch because a ruler exists. Something can’t fall short of an inch if there is no ruler to define an inch. So a length doesn’t prove that the ruler doesn’t exist, it just proves that the length is not an inch.

An excellent analogy !

Linus2nd

 

[robjh22]

This has been bothering you for 50 years, and you are looking for an answer in an online forum???

You know what? This place is way too aggressive for me. Ya’ll take it easy. I am outta here.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I just can’t get past this problem: There is a loving God, I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.

I’ve seen evil explained as a consequence, variously, of human freedom, mental illness, and Satan. What does it matter? It hurts the victims just as much, no matter why it happens, and I don’t see God intervening like we know he could. The evil tends to overwhelm every sense I have that life is good on balance. Even if there were only a small amount of evil, what would it matter to the victims, like those three poor girls imprisoned in the Ohio house of Raul Castro?

The evil that bothers me most, and which I consider the worst, takes the form of child abuse. It is pervasive and I can’t see a loving god allowing it to occur.

I welcome any ideas, but I don’t think I will be satisfied being “at peace” with the issue. I mean, it would be fine for me to see “oh, now I get it!” but it wouldn’t help the abused child who has absolutely no one who can help him.

What in the world am I going to do here? Thanks. Sorry if I am bumming anyone out, but this issue is keeping me from being the Catholic I know I should be.

Folks have given some great insights.
I think the first thing one needs to do is find out exactly why it is that one feels as you do. Just why does it bother you so, since it has been the common lot of man since the beginning ? In other words, do you think your case is something special in a way that has escaped the rest of mankind throughout history?

Don’t you think that Jesus, the Blessed Mother, the Apostles, the Prophets, the Patriarchs knew the depths of depravity taking place in the world around them? And believe me Satan is not called a Fiend for nothing. I can assure you that you do not know the real depths of depravity to which he is capable of leading people. The wonder is that he doesn’t succeed more often.

So let your mind rest, stop thinking of these things and instead concentrate on loving God until your heart bursts with joy. Trust in the Lord for He is truely Good and will eventually correct all the evil that has been done or will be done. He Himself has promised that. You can take that to the bank.

Linus2nd

 

[Randy_Carson]

You know what? This place is way too aggressive for me. Ya’ll take it easy. I am outta here.

It’s a reasonable question…this has been on your mind for a long time. You have obviously thought about it a lot, and you must have some theories.

I’m interested to know what you have come up with so far…

 

[Beryllos]

You know what? This place is way too aggressive for me. Ya’ll take it easy. I am outta here.

Sorry if that’s how you feel, but I don’t see aggression in Randy Carson’s post. He’s asking what you’ve worked out so far, and where you are still having trouble. Answering those two points is a good approach toward dialog in online forums.

If you really are outta here, well, God bless you on your way.

 

[tonyrey]

I just can’t get past this problem: There is a loving God, I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.

I’ve seen evil explained as a consequence, variously, of human freedom, mental illness, and Satan. What does it matter? It hurts the victims just as much, no matter why it happens, and I don’t see God intervening like we know he could. The evil tends to overwhelm every sense I have that life is good on balance. Even if there were only a small amount of evil, what would it matter to the victims, like those three poor girls imprisoned in the Ohio house of Raul Castro?

If God constantly intervened we would lose our freedom and become slaves.

The evil that bothers me most, and which I consider the worst, takes the form of child abuse. It is pervasive and I can’t see a loving god allowing it to occur.

If God intervened whenever a child is abused we would know He exists. It would be like being aware Big Brother is watching us every moment of our lives!

 

[tonyrey]

Folks have given some great insights.
I think the first thing one needs to do is find out exactly why it is that one feels as you do. Just why does it bother you so, since it has been the common lot of man since the beginning ? In other words, do you think your case is something special in a way that has escaped the rest of mankind throughout history?

Don’t you think that Jesus, the Blessed Mother, the Apostles, the Prophets, the Patriarchs knew the depths of depravity taking place in the world around them? And believe me Satan is not called a Fiend for nothing. I can assure you that you do not know the real depths of depravity to which he is capable of leading people. The wonder is that he doesn’t succeed more often.

So let your mind rest, stop thinking of these things and instead concentrate on loving God until your heart bursts with joy. Trust in the Lord for He is truely Good and will eventually correct all the evil that has been done or will be done. He Himself has promised that. You can take that to the bank.

Linus2nd

There is no evidence that evil outweighs goodness.

 

[tonyrey]

We were created by God to be creatures with free will and He therefore doesn’t deal with evil by depriving us of our freedom. Instead, He deals with evil through his perfect justice. Those who’ve been victims of evil will be compensated for their suffering in the next life (or possibly in this one). Their eternal reward in Heaven will be so super-abundant that whatever suffering they bore on earth will seem to be something momentary and light by comparison. (See 2 Cor 4:17) Those who are perpetrators of evil will likewise receive their due.

Cosmic justice has been recognised throughout history, notably in the Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma.

 

[tonyrey]

I am not sure this will help you, but I watched Fr. Barron’s commentary on the movie World War Z which presents a very insightful perspective on the idea of evil (sin) as passed on by ”propagation” rather than by imitation. What I find compelling about this view (and it is a traditional Catholic one, given precise clarity following the Council of Trent) is that it identifies evil as something deeper and more profound or “systemic” than most of us care to admit. It also clearly depicts the solution as much deeper and more “to the core” than most superficial human based solutions would venture. It also sheds a small glimmer of light, at least for me, on why the solution had to be as profoundly deep and cosmos-shattering as God becoming man - having to "go into the dysfunction” (this will make more sense to you after you view the commentary) and dying on the cross in order to procure the “antidote.”

One thing for certain concerning the problem of evil is that we do not fully grasp the profundity of the situation and cannot propose adequate solutions because we just can’t fathom the depth of the issue. Our solutions are woefully inadequate precisely because the depth of the problem is beyond our capacity to diagnose properly and prescribe effective treatment.

Fr. Barron’s commentary also sheds light on why a “sacramental” solution is proposed in Catholic tradition - the antidote “from outside.”

Link: wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/World-War-Z-A-commentary-by-Fr-Barron.aspx

Another very good presentation of the “problem” is CS Lewis’ The Problem of Pain.

The reality of diabolical evil would be too much to bear without the hope and consolation given to us by Jesus on the Cross.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

There is no evidence that evil outweighs goodness.

Did I say it did?

Linus2nd

 

[polytropos]

You know what? This place is way too aggressive for me. Ya’ll take it easy. I am outta here.

People often act a bit impersonal and argumentative on the philosophy forum, since they are arguing against atheists who repudiate the whole faith, that I think we are sometimes unable to respond charitably to those who are genuinely struggling with faith. I hope you resolve your dilemma. For me, I have my “impersonal arguments” against the problem of evil, but for emotional purposes I find it helpful to refer to the Gospels, particularly the passion of Christ. Christ was the most innocent man and suffered the most unjust death on account of others sins. The Christian life is ultimately the life that is most “Christ-like.”

 

[WmJackP]

I just can’t get past this problem: I know that, and there is a moral order in the universe, but there is also evil. A lot of it. I cannot reconcile the two, and unless I do, I think I will die unhappy and depressed. It’s been bothering me for 50 years, and it isn’t getting better.

What you call “evil” is a human judgment based upon norms agreed upon by a consensus of civilized people. For example, one may perceive of a villain as “an evil man” but that is a subjective assessment based upon effects perceived by the observer. From the perspective of the villain, himself, he sees (subjectively also) that his actions are justified and hence not evil.

Hence, the “moral order” is a consensus among civilized people as to what constitutes “good” or “evil” behavior. The moral order too is subjective.

If we are to live in a civilized world, men and women must strive to conform conduct in a manner in which an agreed set of “values” are conformed to while recognizing that when departures occur from these subjective norms that their causes be eradicated and deviant behaviors sanctioned in a way that they are no longer practiced.

 

[Boulder257]

Did God create evil? No! So how did it come about?
Don’t you know that some angels, who have free-will, refused to adore and assent to God’s design and thus began evil with Satan the ring leader?
Adam and Eve began evil on God’s earth created without evil when they disobeyed His command, thus severely weakening human nature. By His suffering, crucifixion and death, Christ redeemed fallen human nature and by instituting His Church gave mankind the ability and capability to rise to unlimited heights of perfection as saints even on earth through Her Eucharist (Holy Mass), Christ’s seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of His Pope, Her Tradition and all of Her Sacred Scriptures.

What are you doing to overcome/ensure that evil in the world is combated?

I don’t think this argument works solely because God could will the devil and all of his minions out of existence if he wanted to. They have power because he allows them to have that power. Really, it all comes down to love. God wanted to be loved freely so he made us. Some of us make choices that are not in accordance with what is right and that then affects the world like a ripple effect. Even we make choices that are not in accordance with the Lord’s will when we sin. But don’t fret! We know who wins in the end and what is waiting for us on the other side.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Jack
**
If we are to live in a civilized world, men and women must strive to conform conduct in a manner in which an agreed set of “values” are conformed to while recognizing that when departures occur from these subjective norms that their causes be eradicated and deviant behaviors sanctioned in a way that they are no longer practiced. **

Well, if you want to open that relativist can of worms …

There is objective evil, and there is no way to redress objective evil without identifying it as such. Yes, consensus is need, but it is not required. A whole society can agree to be evil, and that is still objective, not subjective, evil. Or one person can be evil in a society of good people, and that one person is still objectively, not subjectively, evil. Consensus can go either way, but consensus has nothing to do with the objectivity of good and evil. The consensus of the Supreme Court may be that it is lawful to kill life in the womb, but that only means the Supreme Court has made itself an engine of objective evil.

 

[tonyrey]

What you call “evil” is a human judgment based upon norms agreed upon by a consensus of civilized people. For example, one may perceive of a villain as “an evil man” but that is a subjective assessment based upon effects perceived by the observer. From the perspective of the villain, himself, he sees (subjectively also) that his actions are justified and hence not evil.

Hence, the “moral order” is a consensus among civilized people as to what constitutes “good” or “evil” behavior. The moral order too is subjective.

If we are to live in a civilized world, men and women must strive to conform conduct in a manner in which an agreed set of “values” are conformed to while recognizing that when departures occur from these subjective norms that their causes be eradicated and deviant behaviors sanctioned in a way that they are no longer practiced.

The moral order cannot be solely objective because it is a necessary condition of harmony in society.

 

[Aloysium]

Interesting how when people ask about the problem of evil, they never really question themselves. That’s where I seem to find a lot of answers.

 

[robjh22]

Interesting how when people ask about the problem of evil, they never really question themselves. That’s where I seem to find a lot of answers.

Right Aloysius, I never even once “questioned myself.” Presumably if I had, I would have found the source of evil in myself. I don’t appreciate the tenor of your remark at all.

Honestly, will a mod please close this miserable thread which I regret ever so much for starting. If I am the problem, ban me.

Thank you.

 

[Aloysium]

Right Aloysius, I never even once “questioned myself.” Presumably if I had, I would have found the source of evil in myself. I don’t appreciate the tenor of your remark at all.

Honestly, will a mod please close this miserable thread which I regret ever so much for starting. If I am the problem, ban me.

Thank you.

Remember the Penitential Act:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

God is Compassion and Mercy; He created us.
We are redeemed through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.