The problem of good

[BobCatholic]

Well Bob my Mother would carry your burden for the rest of her life to just be able to see my Brother and take care of him. And would have taken care of my Dad also. She does not carry your burden but does not feel very lucky either.

God does not allow substitutes. Even Christ didn’t substitute himself for the temporal punishments.

And I would LOVE to meet one person who never had their shot at carrying the cross. Because it sure did not bypass Christ himself or his Mother.

There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of unstable employment.
There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of having a kid with a mental disease.
There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of being rejected by God.

All I know is that I could never carry my cross without His love.

And if you can’t do it, how can I? When God has rejected me and left me on my own instead of wanting to have a personal relationship with me, what am I supposed to do?

This is why I struggle with the problem of good. God does good things for others and forgot about me. He passed me by.

 

[HelenRose]

God does not allow substitutes. Even Christ didn’t substitute himself for the temporal punishments.

There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of unstable employment.
There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of having a kid with a mental disease.
There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of being rejected by God.

And if you can’t do it, how can I? When God has rejected me and left me on my own instead of wanting to have a personal relationship with me, what am I supposed to do?

This is why I struggle with the problem of good. God does good things for others and forgot about me. He passed me by.

I am sorry that you have these burdens. I really am.
No one can know the pain another person has so I do not compare your pain with others. I hope that you can find peace in yourself and make peace with God.

 

[BobCatholic]

I am sorry that you have these burdens. I really am.
No one can know the pain another person has so I do not compare your pain with others. I hope that you can find peace in yourself and make peace with God.

Thanks, only God can help me and he’s not talking to me, so I’m pretty much stuck.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Have you read any of St Faustina?

 

[rinnie]

God does not allow substitutes. Even Christ didn’t substitute himself for the temporal punishments.

There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of unstable employment.
There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of having a kid with a mental disease.
There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of being rejected by God.

And if you can’t do it, how can I? When God has rejected me and left me on my own instead of wanting to have a personal relationship with me, what am I supposed to do?

This is why I struggle with the problem of good. God does good things for others and forgot about me. He passed me by.

There are also plenty people who are not exempt of unstable employment.
There are also plenty people who are not exempt of a kid with mental disease.

THere are no people exempt of carrying the cross. There are people in other countries who cannot even find food for their children, and have to watch them starve.

The problem here is you blame God for the problems of humans. I am guessing you are possibly a auto mechanic. I sent my child to school for that. He has a degree. But the problem is he cannot afford the hundreds of thousands of tools. so he worked in a dealership, and did not make much. The dealerships are making it so you have to take a car to them. Its greed of people not God. So my Son went into the coal mine.

Bottom line human sin is not the sin of God. Because we have free will it is the free will of human greed that affects others. There is no reason why we cannot feed other countries, but because of greed of their goverment or control over them, even if we tried they would not allow it.

It is not God that makes us suffer, it is human sin and greed.

Just a simple thought, if you are a mechanic did you ever think to take a course in motorcycles, it is what I wanted my Son to do. This is not a dying market and you could do it on your own. People put tons in a bike, and if you are a good bike mechanic word would get around fast. Just a thought.

 

[BobCatholic]

There are also plenty people who are not exempt of unstable employment.
There are also plenty people who are not exempt of a kid with mental disease.

Hello? I’m not talking about the problem of evil. In addition, I take no joy or comfort from other people’s sufferings because I’m not a sadist.

I’m talking about the problem of good.

The problem here is you blame God for the problems of humans.

God only cares about the spiritual, not the temporal.

I am guessing you are possibly a auto mechanic.

No. In another field. But the field is dying. I went back to school twice to learn new things, got very important certifications and degrees. I can’t find work in those two new fields because I don’t have experience, my prior experience does not count.
So I’m stuck in a dying field.

Bottom line human sin is not the sin of God.

I never said that.

I’m talking about the problem of good. If God is going to exempt one person from a cross, he should do that for everyone. I’m not envious and saying those people should never be exempt. I’m not demanding God yank their blessings. I’m asking why not me as well be blessed and exempt from that cross? God could easily do this without impacting other people. But God passes me by.

Because we have free will it is the free will of human greed that affects others.

I question free will as we are imperfect, and imperfections cause free will to either be a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

There is no reason why we cannot feed other countries,

And there’s no reason why God can’t do it. He chooses not to, and says we have to do it. Laziness? Or some other reason?

It is not God that makes us suffer, it is human sin and greed.

And we are held temporally responsible for other’s sins.

Just a simple thought, if you are a mechanic did you ever think to take a course in motorcycles, it is what I wanted my Son to do.

This is not my field.

I went back to school twice to learn new things, got very important certifications and degrees. I can’t find work in those two new fields because I don’t have experience, my prior experience does not count.
So I’m stuck in a dying field.

There’s no way to get around the catch-22. There are no entry level jobs that require no experience, except for sales, and I’m a horrible salesman.

 

[rinnie]

Hello? I’m not talking about the problem of evil. In addition, I take no joy or comfort from other people’s sufferings because I’m not a sadist.

I’m talking about the problem of good.

God only cares about the spiritual, not the temporal.

No. In another field. But the field is dying. I went back to school twice to learn new things, got very important certifications and degrees. I can’t find work in those two new fields because I don’t have experience, my prior experience does not count.
So I’m stuck in a dying field.

I never said that.

I’m talking about the problem of good. If God is going to exempt one person from a cross, he should do that for everyone. I’m not envious and saying those people should never be exempt. I’m not demanding God yank their blessings. I’m asking why not me as well be blessed and exempt from that cross? God could easily do this without impacting other people. But God passes me by.

I question free will as we are imperfect, and imperfections cause free will to either be a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

And there’s no reason why God can’t do it. He chooses not to, and says we have to do it. Laziness? Or some other reason?

And we are held temporally responsible for other’s sins.

This is not my field.

I went back to school twice to learn new things, got very important certifications and degrees. I can’t find work in those two new fields because I don’t have experience, my prior experience does not count.
So I’m stuck in a dying field.

There’s no way to get around the catch-22. There are no entry level jobs that require no experience, except for sales, and I’m a horrible salesman.

I agree with you on that, I would rather shoot myself in the foot then have to sell someone something.

As far as anyone being exempt from the Cross, I never met them, but if they are pray for them, because this is their world, and its all they are going to get. Its short.

I agree that free will could be imperfect, but its not a cruel joke, not by a long shot, that is why Jesus died on the cross, he knew we couldn’t make it. That is why salvation is thru Jesus Christ not thru free will. But again we cannot blame God for free will being imperfect, we can blame ourselves. Just like Adam and Eve can blame themselves. We all have the free will to sin, or to not sin.

If you remember the rich man and Lazarus it was the rich man who refused to do the will of God, life was good for him, but he refused to help others, greed, lazy,? Who knows. But look where it got him eternal life without God. But mind you you can be a poor man and have the same heart of the rich man. But remember how the rich man did regret what he did, but on the same token it did not get him anywhere, So he wanted to be able to go to his brothers. But as God said if they don’t listen to the prophets, they will not listen to you.

God says its very hard for a rich man to enter heaven, not impossible, but hard. I believe because when people suffer like we do, (my dad said if you suffer you should praise God you are the chosen one) I would say then he really LOVES me but if you suffer you know what it means to struggle, do without, be afraid, etc. but when its ends, and it will, I guess when God fills we learned what he teaching, it makes us so much better people.

Because who could help someone else and understand anothers misery better then on that has worn those shoes.

Thats all I got buddy!!

 

[Vico]

…
There are plenty of people exempt from the cross of being rejected by God.
…He passed me by.

Those are strange statements indeed to make, especially since the Church teaches infallibly that God makes the first move to save a person, and the a person cannot do so on their own, giving actual graces. God even continues to give actual graces of conversion to those the hate Him, through their willful sins.

 

[Lion_IRC]

…I’m not talking about the problem of evil.
…I’m talking about the problem of good.

I’m afraid this just looks like sophistry.
Since when is good a problem?

Your argument that good is a ‘problem’ is just another (inverse) way of observing that bad stuff happens in an uneven measure. ie. Problem of pain.

Stuff just happens. It always happens. Good. Bad. Mundane. It all happens. And the expectation that all events should be systematically, uniformly, and identically ‘good’ in equal measure at all times isnt a question of fairness or unfairness. I think it’s ontologically unrealistic.

Think about it. Suppose the ‘good’ which happens to one person is that they marry the person they love. But in doing so they reject the marriage proposal of another person whom they don’t love. Unrequited love is painful, right? But being forced to (unhappily) marry someone you don’t love in order to make them feel ‘good’ doesn’t solve your so-called problem of good.

 

[Lion_IRC]

I often wonder how atheist parents reconcile the problem of suffering insofar as they themselves bring children into a world where they know suffering exists.

When their child suffers, do they ask themselves as parents, the same existential question, frequently asked of God, about why anyone would ‘create’ a person knowing that suffering exists.

 

[BobCatholic]

As far as anyone being exempt from the Cross, I never met them, but if they are pray for them, because this is their world, and its all they are going to get. Its short.

How do you know that’s all they’re going to get? If they are exempt from the cross, this means God thinks they don’t need the benefits of the cross, therefore they must be better people than I am.

I agree that free will could be imperfect, but its not a cruel joke, not by a long shot, that is why Jesus died on the cross, he knew we couldn’t make it.

Jesus died so to take care of the spiritual problems, not the temporal ones. You will notice that people are still imperfect. We are still not allowed in the Garden of Eden, so Christ didn’t take care of anything temporal.

That is why salvation is thru Jesus Christ not thru free will.

So you are saying we don’t have to cooperate with God’s grace using our free will. This is not Catholic teaching.

But again we cannot blame God for free will being imperfect,

Who created an imperfect human being who has a free will that is imperfect? Was there a second god who did this? Of course not, there is only one God. So who created man imperfect?

we can blame ourselves. Just like Adam and Eve can blame themselves. We all have the free will to sin, or to not sin.

If one is imperfect, the imperfection prevents someone from being sinless. One will fall, just a matter of time.

If you remember the rich man and Lazarus .

With how Christ treated the rich young ruler, that shows that Christ and his father do not like money, and expect us not to have any.

God says its very hard for a rich man to enter heaven,

Because God hates money.

 

[BobCatholic]

Those are strange statements indeed to make, especially since the Church teaches infallibly that God makes the first move to save a person, and the a person cannot do so on their own, giving actual graces. God even continues to give actual graces of conversion to those the hate Him, through their willful sins.

And if God chooses not to help someone and abandons them, there is no hope.

I have tried many things to get closer to God, nothing worked. God plays hard to get and does not want me.

I’m afraid this just looks like sophistry.
Since when is good a problem?

Because how the good is distributed, shows that God is a respecter of persons, contrary to what he said in his word.

Foolish me, I thought God created us all equal in dignity and equal in how he is supposed to treat us. I thought that was Catholic teaching.

Your argument that good is a ‘problem’ is just another (inverse) way of observing that bad stuff happens in an uneven measure. ie. Problem of pain.

Pain is required. When someone is exempt from the cross, while others are not, this shows that God treats people unequally and differently. God is being capricious and arbitrary.

 

[Lion_IRC]

BobCatholic, do you think it is unfair that rapists and murderers and thieves suffer in prison while the rest of us do NOT? Are jails capricious?

 

[BobCatholic]

BobCatholic, do you think it is unfair that rapists and murderers and thieves suffer in prison while the rest of us do NOT? Are jails capricious?

You’re confusing the problem with good with the problem of evil. These are two different kinds of discussions. Your question is about the problem of evil.

Why does God heal one person while another person is told “no”? Can’t be because that healed person was more important, right?

Why is God a respecter of persons?

 

[Lion_IRC]

I’m saying your Op is a merely re-hash of the problem of suffering.

It goes without saying that since intermittent suffering is apparently experienced unevenly by different people at different times in different ways, the corrolary would be that the absence of suffering will likewise manifest intermittently.

I worked in my garden yesterday. Now I’m a bit stiff and sore.

Should I blame God or thank Him for giving me a central nervous system which can still feel the residual (and very satisfying) effects of hard work?

 

[BobCatholic]

I’m saying your Op is a merely re-hash of the problem of suffering.

No, it isn’t.

The problem of suffering is used to attack the existence of God - suffering exists thus God doesn’t exist.

The problem of good acknowledges God exists. So at that point, this is already far different.

It goes without saying that since intermittent suffering is apparently experienced unevenly by different people at different times in different ways, the corrolary would be that the absence of suffering will likewise manifest intermittently.

This is not levels of suffering. This is suffering versus not suffering. Suffering pain versus not having to do so.

This is one person has a cross, another is exempt from that cross. Why? Because God made a decision, nothing more. And how did God make this decision? Was the decision capricious and arbitrary? There is a question whether we are truly equal in the eyes of God, since God treats us unequally. That’s the problem of good.

I worked in my garden yesterday. Now I’m a bit stiff and sore.

Should I blame God or thank Him for giving me a central nervous system which can still feel the residual (and very satisfying) effects of hard work?

And God blessed someone else sufficient wealth to hire a gardener. Why them and why not you?

That’s the problem of good.

 

[Vico]

And if God chooses not to help someone and abandons them, there is no hope…

God does not abandon anyone, they reject Him. That is what I was telling you is a Catholic dogma of faith.

Some dogmas of faith:

• Council of Trent: “God does not abandon the just unless they first abandon Him.”
• The Vatican Council: God, through His Providence, protects and guides all that He has created.

Also: St. Basil, with reference to Mt. 18, 10, Every one of the faithful has his own special guardian angel from baptism. (Sent. certa.)

 

[BobCatholic]

God does not abandon anyone, they reject Him.

Then why is every attempt I make to get closer to God failed? God plays hard to get and does not want me.

Confession must not be working if God still does not want me and has abandoned me.

 

[fbl9]

snip…
That’s the problem of good.

And God blessed someone else sufficient wealth to hire a gardener. Why them and why not you?

That’s the problem of good.

To quote a band called Sword… trouble is it’s a problem for you and not for me (and the rest of the faithful)

 

[BobCatholic]

To quote a band called Sword… trouble is it’s a problem for you and not for me (and the rest of the faithful)

So I am alone even more than just having God abandon me. Everyone else has.