The problem of good

[Vico]

Then why is every attempt I make to get closer to God failed? God plays hard to get and does not want me.

Confession must not be working if God still does not want me and has abandoned me.

We are with God when we have a state of Sanctifying Grace which is receive in the sacraments. The only way that would not happen is if there was no true reception of the sacraments. But even so, God does not need to produce a miracle or make events or conditions different according to our request to respond. Sometimes we may be blind to the response, for God teaches us in many ways.

 

[rinnie]

I’m saying your Op is a merely re-hash of the problem of suffering.

It goes without saying that since intermittent suffering is apparently experienced unevenly by different people at different times in different ways, the corrolary would be that the absence of suffering will likewise manifest intermittently.

I worked in my garden yesterday. Now I’m a bit stiff and sore.

Should I blame God or thank Him for giving me a central nervous system which can still feel the residual (and very satisfying) effects of hard work?

It goes to show you that there are all kinds of people in this world. I myself hurt all the time, and I try not to complain. But here is how I see it. We all have problems and God never promised us we would not. As a matter of Face he said if the world hated me, it will hate you also.

If you are lucky enough to have grace from God, which I thank him for everyday, and ask him for more. I can’t get enough.

Because it is his grace that helps me, and has helped me in the past to get through.

I like you would rather go outside and work and do things, and come in and hurt, because you are going to hurt anyway, even if you sit around, sometimes worse. But when I come in and hurt like heck I call it a good hurt. At least I accomplished something, and instead of blaming God or my pain, I praise him for letting me work through it.

Happiness is a state of mind. You can choose to complain, and fill sorry for yourself, and trust me I have this in the past, or work through it, trust God and wait, wait as long as it takes. Because God is NEVER Late.

Now he is usually not early either (something him and I need to work on) but you just have to wait for his answer. And it will come, and usually is not what you asked for, but in the end it was what was best for you.

 

[rinnie]

We are with God when we have a state of Sanctifying Grace which is receive in the sacraments. The only way that would not happen is if there was no true reception of the sacraments. But even so, God does not need to produce a miracle or make events or conditions different according to our request to respond. Sometimes we may be blind to the response, for God teaches us in many ways.

Amen to this. The problem sometimes if you refuse to be taught you stay in the same grade like in school, and never move ahead. You say stuck in life.

 

[fbl9]

So I am alone even more than just having God abandon me. Everyone else has.

To quote a band called Sword… trouble is it’s a problem for you and not for me (and the rest of the faithful)

No, it isn’t.

The problem of suffering is used to attack the existence of God - suffering exists thus God doesn’t exist.

The problem of good acknowledges God exists. So at that point, this is already far different.

This is not levels of suffering. This is suffering versus not suffering. Suffering pain versus not having to do so.

This is one person has a cross, another is exempt from that cross. Why? Because God made a decision, nothing more. And how did God make this decision? Was the decision capricious and arbitrary? There is a question whether we are truly equal in the eyes of God, since God treats us unequally. That’s the problem of good.

And God blessed someone else sufficient wealth to hire a gardener. Why them and why not you?

That’s the problem of good.

 

[rinnie]

Then why is every attempt I make to get closer to God failed? God plays hard to get and does not want me.

Confession must not be working if God still does not want me and has abandoned me.

See here is the problem. You continue to speak for God, and tell us what he wants, does not want etc. That is your first problem, you cannot speak for God. You claim God does not want you, you do not have the mind of God, so cannot speak for him.

You claim every attempt you have made has failed, then you have to change something.

You go to God and tell him what you want, what you need, etc. There is no need for that, God already knows. Until you submit yourself body and soul and agree to let him take over, you will make no progress. And then you have to take what you get, and have faith in him because his wisdom is above yours.

My advice is to say (this is what works for me). Here is my prayer to God.

Dear God, I have tried ever attempt to do what I think is right, tried everything I could and have failed. I am now going to quit telling you what should be done, and I am going to wait until you tell ME what should be done, because when I try to play God I make a real disaster of it. I will not longer tell you what I need or want, I will let you tell me what I need or should want. Amen.

 

[fbl9]

No, it isn’t.

The problem of suffering is used to attack the existence of God - suffering exists thus God doesn’t exist.

The problem of good acknowledges God exists. So at that point, this is already far different.

This is not levels of suffering. This is suffering versus not suffering. Suffering pain versus not having to do so.

This is one person has a cross, another is exempt from that cross. Why? Because God made a decision, nothing more. And how did God make this decision? Was the decision capricious and arbitrary? There is a question whether we are truly equal in the eyes of God, since God treats us unequally. That’s the problem of good.

And God blessed someone else sufficient wealth to hire a gardener. Why them and why not you?

That’s the problem of good.

To quote a band called Sword… trouble is it’s a problem for you and not for me (and the rest of the faithful)

So I am alone even more than just having God abandon me. Everyone else has.

There you go again instead of reading and seeing what is there you latch onto some thing that supports your view of self.
When the response was entirely to the quoted section. Which was… that’s the problem of good
Some one else was blessed with enough wealth to afford a gardener, why not you.
that’s the problem of good.

Why would some one be blessed to be able to afford to hire a gardener and not you Bob?
It is a two part question Bob.

 

[Lion_IRC]

BobCatholic, you say that your Op about the ‘problem’ of good isn’t concerned with the inverse problem of suffering. But everything you’ve written is effectively an argument from unfairness - that a person’s lack of happiness/good amounts to a form of suffering.

If God doesn’t simultaneously give everyone at all times an exactly equal amount of good/happiness then those who don’t get as much suffer from that alleged deprivation.
Isnt that what you’re saying?

And I disagree with your claim that the alleged ‘problem’ of good differs from the problem of suffering insofar as the latter is a form of argument against the existence of God. Your Op - if true - does the exact same thing as counter-apologists attempt with the problem of suffering.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to say;
A) …If God is (as He Himself states) a loving God
B) …then He would distribute goodness exactly equally to all people.
C) …but He doesn’t

So therefore what?
The logical answer would be that the God described in A & B doesn’t exist.

 

[BobCatholic]

We are with God when we have a state of Sanctifying Grace which is receive in the sacraments. The only way that would not happen is if there was no true reception of the sacraments. But even so, God does not need to produce a miracle or make events or conditions different according to our request to respond. Sometimes we may be blind to the response, for God teaches us in many ways.

I truly hope I have truly received the sacraments, and that all elements were in proper order. If not, eclessia suplet principle comes into play, so I think I’m covered.

 

[BobCatholic]

See here is the problem. You continue to speak for God, and tell us what he wants, does not want etc. That is your first problem, you cannot speak for God. You claim God does not want you, you do not have the mind of God, so cannot speak for him.

I never claimed to speak for God.

I only tell my experience. God said no to my prayers.

You claim every attempt you have made has failed, then you have to change something.

Agreed.

You go to God and tell him what you want, what you need, etc. There is no need for that, God already knows.

God already knows, and God does not care.

Until you submit yourself body and soul and agree to let him take over, you will make no progress.

And then you have to take what you get, and have faith in him because his wisdom is above yours.

I don’t understand why God creates people imperfect. Imperfections cause people to sin, it is like buggy software, it will crash, it is a matter of time.

I don’t understand why God has no responsibilities but all the power, while we mortals have no power but all the responsibility. I thought, God, being the ultimate moral actor, has responsibilities of some kind. But he has none.

Dear God, I have tried ever attempt to do what I think is right, tried everything I could and have failed. I am now going to quit telling you what should be done, and I am going to wait until you tell ME what should be done, because when I try to play God I make a real disaster of it. I will not longer tell you what I need or want, I will let you tell me what I need or should want. Amen.

I have prayed this prayer, and it did not work. I’ve had someone suggest a similar prayer.

There you go again instead of reading and seeing what is there you latch onto some thing that supports your view of self.
When the response was entirely to the quoted section. Which was… that’s the problem of good

So what did the quoted section mean, besides “the problem is yours, not ours, we don’t want to help”

Some one else was blessed with enough wealth to afford a gardener, why not you.
that’s the problem of good.

Why would some one be blessed to be able to afford to hire a gardener and not you Bob?
It is a two part question Bob.

The problem of good is:

• God is not a respecter of persons. God does not have cronies, nor does he bribe people into doing his will.
• We are required by divine law, to carry the cross.
• There are those who are exempt from the cross. God blesses them with good things that are denied to others.
• We are allegedly created as equals, but not treated as equals.

Look, if it were simple as “Well, she’s 1,495,309 times more saintly than you, so I’m pouring on the blessings on her.” then I can see that. Then I could work on sanctity and get more blessings. But God does not do that. Saintly people suffer even MORE many times.

So God chooses who gets exemption from the cross versus not. It is a decision making process that appears capricious and arbitrary. God seems to only care about the spiritual and not the temporal.

 

[BobCatholic]

BobCatholic, you say that your Op about the ‘problem’ of good isn’t concerned with the inverse problem of suffering. But everything you’ve written is effectively an argument from unfairness - that a person’s lack of happiness/good amounts to a form of suffering.

No, because that’s only because you don’t see the point I’m trying to make. I get it, I’m really bad at communicating, but I know this is not the same thing as the problem of evil.

If God doesn’t simultaneously give everyone at all times an exactly equal amount of good/happiness then those who don’t get as much suffer from that alleged deprivation.
Isnt that what you’re saying?

If we are all created in the image and likeness of God, and have the same dignity, then we should all be treated equally. God doesn’t do that.

And I disagree with your claim that the alleged ‘problem’ of good differs from the problem of suffering insofar as the latter is a form of argument against the existence of God. Your Op - if true - does the exact same thing as counter-apologists attempt with the problem of suffering.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to say;
A) …If God is (as He Himself states) a loving God
B) …then He would distribute goodness exactly equally to all people.
C) …but He doesn’t

So therefore what?
The logical answer would be that the God described in A & B doesn’t exist.

No, the logical answer is God exists, but treats people in an arbitrary and capricious manner. God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.

So, the problem of evil has the logical conclusion that God does not exist at all. The problem of good has the logical conclusion that God DOES exist, but only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.

Two way different and opposite conclusions.

That is, if you bother to actually read my point.

 

[fbl9]

removed bob’s reply to rinnie…

So what did the quoted section mean, besides “the problem is yours, not ours, we don’t want to help”

Why did you add that last part Bob? So it fits with your private view?
You just do not want to accept any thing the good people, who have been conversing with you on these threads of yours, have wrote to you. (myself not included in the good people). And that is why it is your problem.

The problem of good is:

• God is not a respecter of persons. God does not have cronies, nor does he bribe people into doing his will.
• We are required by divine law, to carry the cross.
• There are those who are exempt from the cross. God blesses them with good things that are denied to others.
• We are allegedly created as equals, but not treated as equals.

And your point is?
And so did Jesus. your point is?
Examples of such persons please.
So God allows some one to have more than me. What is your point?
Yes we are created equal in the dignity deserved due to our being human .

Look, if it were simple as “Well, she’s 1,495,309 times more saintly than you, so I’m pouring on the blessings on her.” then I can see that. Then I could work on sanctity and get more blessings. But God does not do that. Saintly people suffer even MORE many times.

And you will notice these saintly persons do not call God an unfair and unjust judge.

So God chooses who gets exemption from the cross versus not. It is a decision making process that appears capricious and arbitrary. God seems to only care about the spiritual and not the temporal.

First you need to provide evidence of this.
Again you need to provide evidence that God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.

 

[Lion_IRC]

The problem of envy.


See Matthew 20:15

 

[Herculees]

The bigger question is WHY do you think some people do NOT suffer. Just because you don’t see their suffering does NOT mean they are NOT suffering. Remember God DID promise us a rose garden. Think about it a rose has thorns! Joy & Suffering!

God loves us so much he gave us FREE WILL. If we do the will of God suffering will not seem like suffering to us. If we do NOT do the will of God how can we NOT suffer?

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Having read your threads going back,

With respect Bob, I feel you are suffering depression of sorts. I feel you would benefit from a spiritual mentor and a professional.

May God bless us on our journey home.

 

[rinnie]

Why did you add that last part Bob? So it fits with your private view?
You just do not want to accept any thing the good people, who have been conversing with you on these threads of yours, have wrote to you. (myself not included in the good people). And that is why it is your problem.

And your point is?
And so did Jesus. your point is?
Examples of such persons please.
So God allows some one to have more than me. What is your point?
Yes we are created equal in the dignity deserved due to our being human .
And you will notice these saintly persons do not call God an unfair and unjust judge. First you need to provide evidence of this.
Again you need to provide evidence that God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.

And may I add the Saint’s are who have suffered the most. That is why they are called Saint’s. Look at Mother T, she went through alot of dark days but continued to work for God.

A Saint are the ones that keep the faith no matter how they do not have understanding of why God asks things of them.

Look at the Blessed Mother, she was human, but she kept her faith in God and obeyed him to the end. But here reward in this world was to see he Son hung on a cross. And still never blamed God. She trusted God and knew he had his reasons. If he could make a good of that, he can make a good out of any suffering. But it is faith, and hope, and praying for continued Grace to get you thru.

 

[rinnie]

Having read your threads going back,

With respect Bob, I feel you are suffering depression of sorts. I feel you would benefit from a spiritual mentor and a professional.

May God bless us on our journey home.

I think so also. Its so sad to see him suffer like this, but unfortunately we all get our turn. It is not a curse from God but a gift, but speaking for myself I know when you are going through it, it sure does not seem like a gift.

Its usually a gift for someone else, because you can help them, and show them what God taught you through the battle. Its makes you a better person all the way around, and for sure a different person.

 

[John_Martin]

Bob,
You are praying to a god you believe will not answer you, and you are in your prayer joining to a god of ‘no answers to Bob’.
You do not seek glory for God’s name above all, even above yourself and your son’s health, but you are deriding God in an attempt to tempt him to vindicate his own name (“If I help Bob, he will stop telling people that I show preference.”)

Instead, in your prayer, join your ancestor in the Faith, Azariah. In your prayer focus God on remembering his love of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; and seek his kingdom and his righteousness foremost. You are being burned alive right now in your situations, so join Azariah’s prayer as your own, and walk in your fire as he walked in his. He did not know God would deliver them from the fire, but was certain they would die (“let our sacrifice be in your presence today…”)

Reading 1 Dan 3:25, 34-43
Azariah stood up in the fire and prayed aloud:

“For your name’s sake, O Lord, do not deliver us up forever,
or make void your covenant.
Do not take away your mercy from us,
for the sake of Abraham, your beloved,
Isaac your servant, and Israel your holy one,
To whom you promised to multiply their offspring
like the stars of heaven,
or the sand on the shore of the sea.
For we are reduced, O Lord, beyond any other nation,
brought low everywhere in the world this day
because of our sins.
We have in our day no prince, prophet, or leader,
no burnt offering, sacrifice, oblation, or incense,
no place to offer first fruits, to find favor with you.
But with contrite heart and humble spirit
let us be received;
As though it were burnt offerings of rams and bullocks,
or thousands of fat lambs,
So let our sacrifice be in your presence today
as we follow you unreservedly;
for those who trust in you cannot be put to shame.
And now we follow you with our whole heart,
we fear you and we pray to you.
Do not let us be put to shame,
but deal with us in your kindness and great mercy.
Deliver us by your wonders,
and bring glory to your name, O Lord.”

 

[BobCatholic]

Why did you add that last part Bob?
And that is why it is your problem.

I added that last part because that is what you meant. And clearly my interpretation was correct when it comes to you.

And your point is?
And so did Jesus. your point is?
Examples of such persons please.
So God allows some one to have more than me. What is your point?

You didn’t read my point.

Scripture says God is not a respecter of persons, here he is doing that.

Again you need to provide evidence that God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.

The proof is simple.

We are here in planet earth, outside of the Garden of Eden.

We are not in heaven.

If God cared about the temporal, what would have happened was that after the resurrection, the gates to the Garden of Eden would have reopened and everyone who was reborn again, was allowed back in.

A long line of people being baptized, and then allowed back into the Garden.

But that never happened.

In addition, if people ask God for things that are temporal needs, he cannot refuse, otherwise he does not care about their temporal needs.

A drug addict asks God to be healed of his drug addiction but then falls quickly afterward. Clearly not healed.
An unemployed person asks to get a decent paying job. Doesn’t get it. Clearly got a no.

But God does refuse, and what’s worse, doesn’t explain why. Fine, that’s his prerogative, he’s the boss. But that proves he does not care about the temporal.

 

[BobCatholic]

The problem of envy.


See Matthew 20:15

Wrong.

Envy is

“You have something I don’t have, and you don’t deserve so I want to take it away from you.”

I’m more jealous. Let me get my piece of the pie as well.

Remember, it is OK to be jealous, since God is a jealous God.

And the problem of good is not about envy, it is not about jealousy, it is about treating everyone equal. If we were equal in the eyes of God, there would not be this problem of good.

 

[BobCatholic]

The bigger question is WHY do you think some people do NOT suffer. Just because you don’t see their suffering does NOT mean they are NOT suffering.

You don’t know that.

Someone rich is not suffering from lack.
Someone healthy is not suffering sickness.

Remember God DID promise us a rose garden. Think about it a rose has thorns! Joy & Suffering!

Where did he promise a rose garden? He gave us the Garden of Eden, which is not a rose garden.

God loves us so much he gave us FREE WILL. If we do the will of God suffering will not seem like suffering to us. If we do NOT do the will of God how can we NOT suffer?

But God does not love us enough to create us perfect, so we can follow his command to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. A command that is impossible to follow + punishment for not following it (purgatory, suffering).

Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best and nonexistent at worst.

Having read your threads going back,

With respect Bob, I feel you are suffering depression of sorts. I feel you would benefit from a spiritual mentor and a professional.

May God bless us on our journey home.

I have looked for a SD can’t find one.

And I’m not depressed, where did you get your PhD in Psychology/Psychiatry?

I’m just asking a question, so it is uncharitable to accuse people of something for asking a question.