The Problem of Hell

[geekborj]

How is “choice” any better? Even if some crazy person were to ask God to torture him eternally—although we should note that such is not the situation in most cases—God is still responsible for satisfying the request.

IF ever there is any possibility of God satisfying the request of a person who not in their right minds… Within the Catholic theology, there is such term as “venial sin” – “choices” that are not meant by the soul.

God, being absolute Justice, must be giving all possible chances for anyone to choose wisely and with finality.

 

[geekborj]

Hey, I am writing a paper on the the problem of hell and wold like to hear your opinions/ answers on this “problem”, (anihilationism): We are finite beings and therefore can only sin a finite amount. So our temporal sins can only warrant a temporal punishment. Therefore, If God is all just, then hell cannot be eternal. This annihilationist view is held by Seventh day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It must be admitted that this is, at least at first glance, a powerful argument. God could damn people for aeons and aeons and then annihilate them instead of damning them for eternity.

• Thanks in advance!

The problem with the above “problem” is the premise.

1. We are finite beings. This is wrong because man has both a body and a soul. The soul is eternal (hence “infinite”). It is with the soul that will and intellect reside with. Hence, when one wills to reject the free gift of God, then God’s love will be absent in his future life.
2. Since every final will of the soul (will right before death) becomes final, that decision is final and eternal. Hence, eternal separation from God’s love and light.
3. Hell is defines as the absence of God or eternal separation from his Love.

The argument in the OP also breaks one of the three accepted qualities of the Christian God:
4) God being the infinite Love also necessitates that each created soul have free will and eternality. What God gives, He necessarily does not take back. If God would create souls only to annihilate them in the end, God is not infinite Love.
5) God being the infinite Justice also necessitates the idea of Hell – eternal separation from him for those who freely chose to be so. If God would not grant man’s free and willful decision/choice, He is not the God of the Christians.
6) God’s infinite Mercy also necessitates the idea of Grace.

Hope these help.

 

[dcastlen50]

Please, can someone answer this: Is it dogma of the Catholic church that there is fire in hell?

 

[no3rdseat]

I’d like to say that the bible states (according to bible.cc/genesis/2-7.htm ) that God made man of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul. The is what the Adventists believe. We do not HAVE souls, we ARE souls. The “soul” is the combination of the body and the breath of life. At death, the breath of life ceases to flow in the body and the two are separated, therefore the “soul” ceases to exist.

I was born and raised Catholic, but my proclivity is to believe a more Eastern philosophy on the nature of existence. I believe that each of us is actually God manifest, ‘breathed’ into a 3D form so that God can experience 3D space. Trees, rocks, animals, people, rays of light… everything in the universe is God experiencing this dimension. That’s the PURPOSE of everything being here. If God is a creator, why would he create the universe and then quit creating? I think every thought in your head, every apple that falls from a tree, all of it, is God constantly creating action in time and space.

So to get back to your question, God breathed into a human form the breath of life. It’s like the air blown into a balloon. When the balloon pops, the air goes back to become part of the atmosphere. When we die, the body and the breath separate and the “soul” ceases to exist. Remember Genesis 2:7, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living soul.”

-Rick Stewart

 

[momor]

1. God being the infinite Justice also necessitates the idea of Hell – eternal separation from him for those who freely chose to be so. If God would not grant man’s free and willful decision/choice, He is not the God of the Christians.

My questions/comments below are addressed to anyone who wishes to respond.
I read and hear the point outlined above made over and over and although I believe it I think it is usually presented far too simplistically.

Why would anyone choose eternal pain if they have full knowledge at death of what that choice will mean? How does the life we lead here on earth impact our ability to make that final decision? Is there something more than just a tally of unrepented and unforgiven sins to tip the scale toward hell?

How do you account for the people who lead a very selfish and sinful life but don’t consciously do so as a rejection of God or have any wish to be separated from Him eternally? I’m talking about people who are just too taken up pleasures of the flesh and with trying to be happy in this life to take the narrow road and think much about the next.

Given our Catholic understanding of mortal sin and it’s immediate and total separation from God, and given the type of person described above, how do you think God will present them with their choice at death?

How do you account for the idea that people are tempted by the devil at death? He certainly would be trying to influence them to make a choice for hell. Is the prince of lies going to attempt to hide the true nature of hell to get people to choose it or is there something else he might use? Might he present the case for our damnation? Would an infinitely just God allow the devil to deceive us?

My gut feeling is that the way we live here on earth determines our ability to see our sinfulness before God and still accept mercy. Perhaps the more we love God and neighbor we build our capacity to stand before God and see our sinfulness and not be crushed under the weight of that perfect knowledge.

I’d really like to know how others imagine that final choice before God might go.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

momor

Would an infinitely just God allow the devil to deceive us?

Yes. Because it is we who allow the devil to deceive us.

 

[no3rdseat]

Another point I would like to make is that God must exist OUTSIDE of our 3D universe. You can’t build a house from inside a house before it’s built. Likewise, God could not create a 3D space from inside of it before it was created. Without time or space, God would have the ability to be everywhere in this universe at once. He would know everything that has happened and everything that will happen because he lacks the confines of time and space. It stands to reason then, that God without time and space can not move as we know motion.

So, assuming the Catholic idea that we HAVE a soul, this brings up a couple of important questions.

1. When we die, does the soul remain in this universe? If it does and it goes to a hell which exists in our universe, hell would have to abide by laws of thermodynamics and I wonder what type of flame could burn for eternity?? What type of fuel would it use?
2. If, when we die, we leave this 3D universe, we are then no longer bound by time or space so there is no eternity, only the present.

One of my favorite ideas from the Hindus is that the only way for us to experience eternity is to fully live in the present.

-Rick Stewart

 

[momor]

momor

Would an infinitely just God allow the devil to deceive us?

Yes. Because it is we who allow the devil to deceive us.

I agree with your statement as it pertains to this life. However, at our particular judgment won’t the “scales fall from our eyes” and we will see with complete and perfect knowledge? How else could our final choice be truly one of free will?

 

[TxPatriot281]

But despite the fact that I am good and kind to people, because I look at the Jesus story and say, ‘Well, it just may not be accurate’ I am to be punished by eternal torture.

Does that seem like the act of a just, loving God?

“The fruit of understanding is not FAITH. Therefore seek not to understand so that you may believe, but beleive so that you may understand.”- St. Augustine

God does not want you to be “good and kind to people” per se. He wants you to be a SAINT!

Between the person you are today and the person you want to be before you die is a gap, or a void or a hole. You can choose to fill that void with what you think will bring you happiness, being “good and kind”, YOUR WILL. Or, you can choose to TRUST God, the Father Almighty, your Father, and seek HIS WILL through habitual prayer. This life is about a relationship bw you and your spiritual Father through his Son Christ by the power of His Spirit. When you sin you wound this relationship with God. When your sin is deadly (mortal) you annihilate this relationship. You seperate yourself, maybe ignorantly, but still willingly. Now Hell…It is a matter a faith that is beyond human comprehension and reason which true faith transcends.

My guess is that you think you are happy and content with your current human condition, but if you actually took a long honest look at yourself in the mirror you might see and feel how empty you truly are, God willing. Maybe not, depending on how well off and comfortable you have built the walls around you to keep God out. But if you find your emptiness and brokeness there is only One who can fix it. And that my brother takes FAITH, NOT human reason and understanding. You may think you know something about God but how well do you know God personally as a friend you are in realtions with??? Praying is the only way to discover and nurture this relationship. There are many different ways to pray, maybe you should research some. Either way I’ll pray that you find the Truth, the Way and the Life. May God bless you. Amen.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with your statement as it pertains to this life. However, at our particular judgment won’t the “scales fall from our eyes” and we will see with complete and perfect knowledge? How else could our final choice be truly one of free will?

I think purgatory’s purpose is to fill that final enlightening role.

 

[momor]

I think purgatory’s purpose is to fill that final enlightening role.

I’m not sure I follow you. Please explain.

 

[Mijoy2]

OK, so far, so good. If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it may be a duck.

So if I’m understanding you correctly, you are not labeling this punching game as wrong, or immoral, simply not your cup of tea. Cool. I know people who are into some serious S&M, and though I’ve been known to take (and enjoy) the occasional spanking or two, I’m an amateur compared to them.

My experience says otherwise, but continue…

One should understand the rules of the game in which one is playing.

If casual sex is being done in the confines of a committed and monogamous relationship, and the expectation is that the relationship is likely to grow and bloom then adding sex may intensify feelings. In fact, I’d go so far as to NOT label this as ‘casual’ sex in the first place, as there’s nothing ‘casual’ about it.

OTOH, If the sex is married couples fooling around as a group with the expectation being when it’s over, everyone goes back home and life goes on, there’s no reason for it to do so.

I’d even say if it’s NOT the expectation of ALL parties that it’s ‘just sex for fun’ then whoever doesn’t think that is not really having ‘casual’ sex in the first place. Not everyone is emotionally capable of casual sex, and those that are not should not partake. Then again, not everyone is capable of jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft, even if they believe their parachute will work.

Different Strokes. No pun intended.

One need not have any sort of sexual activity, real, expected, hoped for, or otherwise to have this exact same scenario play out.

Sexual issues are but a single item in a very, very long list that can cause or contribute to this phenomenon. And what’s your alternative, forcing a couple who have concluded that they hate each other to nonetheless be forced to live and act as a married couple?

You have not shown that in the least.

Now, I CAN give you a secular/quasi-religious perspective that tends to show why sexual promiscuity is something that should be avoided, at least in days gone by.

Because it’s dangerous! And God will punish you for it.(Or, was.)

Back in the day it’s a factual statement that it was literally a dangerous activity, litterally akin to playing russian roulette, and you play that game enough times, it’s just a matter of when you’re going to lose, not if.

However, our medical technologies have changed that. Most of the hideous sexually transmitted diseases that plagued mankind from it’s inception until but a few decades ago are now nothing more than nuiscances, requiring nothing more than a shot or two to completely clear up. No form of contraception is 100% perfect, but stack a few of them together (say pills, condoms, and withdrawal combined) and you get close enough that the whole unwanted pregnancy thing becomes very, very rare.

So, yeah, 150 years ago you were dumb to be promiscuous. It was likely even more true 1500 years ago.

But not so much today.

Seeker, can you describe “spiritual but not religious” for me?

 

[melekali]

Hey, I am writing a paper on the the problem of hell and wold like to hear your opinions/ answers on this “problem”, (anihilationism): We are finite beings and therefore can only sin a finite amount. So our temporal sins can only warrant a temporal punishment. Therefore, If God is all just, then hell cannot be eternal. This annihilationist view is held by Seventh day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It must be admitted that this is, at least at first glance, a powerful argument. God could damn people for aeons and aeons and then annihilate them instead of damning them for eternity.

• Thanks in advance!

Since your premise is faulty (We are finite being), your conclusion is also faulty (and therefore can only sin a finite amount).

 

[johnnyprc]

I think your question is a good one, and I am glad you are doing so much research on a topic that’s divided Chrisianity.

The first thing you should be asking is: Where does the bible talk about Hell? It doesn’t. References made in the bible to a trash collection area outside the walls of Jerusalem have been skewed to fit a concept of enternal punishment. The Greek scriptures occasionally used the term hades, but the “story” of Hell didn’t start to become so defined until the Church needed imagery to scare people who generally could not read. Keeping attendance up at church was a major factor in the development of the iconic picture of what Hell is typically known as.

Only recently, relatively speaking, has the church developed a more palatable explanation of what Hell is to keep God from seeming so unloving. Operation “Tone Down Hell” was not taken up by the church until our age.

What makes this so confusing is that the term will stay the same, yet the meaning changes drastically over time. In this way only the Church stays consistent.

 

[fhansen]

I think purgatory’s purpose is to fill that final enlightening role.

If man’s problem is a will wrongly directed due to rebellion and a general lack of wisdom concerning God and our relation with Him, then God’s redemptive purpose would involve the business of reforming and conforming our wills, of helping us, by His grace, to see what is truly of value in this universe so that we’ll eventually choose rightly, without being coerced. So that we’ll let go of our attachments to things other-than-God, knowing the reason why, as we come to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. This, I believe, would be the purpose of purgatory, if not accomplished in this life. Maybe not, maybe it would happen all at once at the particular judgment or when we finally see God in the Beatific Vision. But, I believe, much work must first be done in this life- and then into the next if necessary-to prepare us properly for the Groom.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

johnny

*The first thing you should be asking is: Where does the bible talk about Hell? It doesn’t. *

Maybe the first thing you need to do is to read the Bible?

*And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'*

                                                                                  Matthew 25:40-41

 

[momor]

If man’s problem is a will wrongly directed due to rebellion and a general lack of wisdom concerning God and our relation with Him, then God’s redemptive purpose would involve the business of reforming and conforming our wills, of helping us, by His grace, to see what is truly of value in this universe so that we’ll eventually choose rightly, without being coerced. So that we’ll let go of our attachments to things other-than-God, knowing the reason why, as we come to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. This, I believe, would be the purpose of purgatory, if not accomplished in this life. Maybe not, maybe it would happen all at once at the particular judgment or when we finally see God in the Beatific Vision. But, I believe, much work must first be done in this life- and then into the next if necessary-to prepare us properly for the Groom.

Am I understanding you correctly that you think Purgatory might come before the particular judgment?

 

[johnnyprc]

Charlemagne:

Where do you see the term Hell used there? Again, there are plenty of references made to Gehenna that tie back into the Hebrew scriptures (if you didn’t know, Jesus did that often), which ALWAYS was burning to dispose of the City’s garbage. The term Hell is nothing more than a church ploy to market a fiticious place for those who do not attend church, or who ignore the Pope.

If such a place really existed, don’t you think God would have told Israel about it in great detail? Heaven is one thing, but a place where people are tormented forever? I’d be more worried about not going to Hell than getting to go to Heaven.

 

[Betterave]

Charlemagne:

Where do you see the term Hell used there? Again, there are plenty of references made to Gehenna that tie back into the Hebrew scriptures (if you didn’t know, Jesus did that often), which ALWAYS was burning to dispose of the City’s garbage. The term Hell is nothing more than a church ploy to market a fiticious place for those who do not attend church, or who ignore the Pope.

If such a place really existed, don’t you think God would have told Israel about it in great detail? Heaven is one thing, but a place where people are tormented forever? I’d be more worried about not going to Hell than getting to go to Heaven.

With all due respect, johnny, I’ve heard this claim before and it seems just plain laughable. Have you actually read the Bible? Can you give us a Bible passage or two referencing Gehenna (the garbage dump outside Jerusalem ) which the Church has abused by making it seem like something more than that?

 

[Betterave]

The US AIDS infection rate is about 0.6%. Some other notable countries include Zimbabwe, at 24.06%, France @ 0.2%, the UK @ 0.2%, Italy at 0.15%, and Germany at 0.09%. The Zimbabwe figure firmly illustrates that the churches position on condoms in Africa is KILLING PEOPLE, and the lower rates in countries generally thought of less conservative and more sexually promiscuous than the US tell us it’s not just about preventing sex from occurring.

So people are having anal sex instead of using condoms OUT OF RESPECT FOR CHURCH TEACHING? (You realize, I hope, how dumb that sounds?)