The Problem of Hell

[Abbax8]

Hey, I am writing a paper on the the problem of hell and wold like to hear your opinions/ answers on this “problem”, (anihilationism): We are finite beings and therefore can only sin a finite amount. So our temporal sins can only warrant a temporal punishment. Therefore, If God is all just, then hell cannot be eternal. This annihilationist view is held by Seventh day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It must be admitted that this is, at least at first glance, a powerful argument. God could damn people for aeons and aeons and then annihilate them instead of damning them for eternity.

• Thanks in advance!

I have not read through all 15 pages of posts so please forgive me if this post is a repeat of an earlier one.

It is my understanding that God wants all people with him in heaven. However he has given us a free will and will not interfere with our choices. If we choose to not live our lives according to his rules, then we are separating ourselves from God on earth. If we become accustomed to living away from God here on earth temporarily, we will not want to live eternally in heaven with him. God does not send us to hell as much as we choose to send ourselves to hell. The punishment part comes when we realize to late how badly we have screwed up and cannot repent. Then there’s also the whole being there with Satan and his demons, NOT good company to keep.

Eternity is an interesting concept when you realize that right now is part of all of our eternal lives. We can begin our heaven or hell here on earth, it’s our choice.

Dennis

 

[tonyrey]

I have not read through all 15 pages of posts so please forgive me if this post is a repeat of an earlier one.

It is my understanding that God wants all people with him in heaven. However he has given us a free will and will not interfere with our choices. If we choose to not live our lives according to his rules, then we are separating ourselves from God on earth. If we become accustomed to living away from God here on earth temporarily, we will not want to live eternally in heaven with him. God does not send us to hell as much as we choose to send ourselves to hell. The punishment part comes when we realize to late how badly we have screwed up and cannot repent. Then there’s also the whole being there with Satan and his demons, NOT good company to keep.

Eternity is an interesting concept when you realize that right now is part of all of our eternal lives. We can begin our heaven or hell here on earth, it’s our choice.

Dennis

I agree with you, Dennis, that God does not send us to hell but if there came a stage at which we could not repent we would no longer have free will! Surely God in His infinite mercy and love would not take away the gift by which we most resemble Him. Without free will we would be incapable of love and even the power of reasoning. It would be more merciful to let us disappear rather than allow us to exist forever in such a hopeless state!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

tonyrey

*It would be more merciful to let us disappear rather than allow us to exist forever in such a hopeless state! *

This I take to be the bottom line of any argument in favor of abolishing hell, if not immediately, at least at some point down the line.

Whether God will in His infinite mercy abolish hell is God’s business, not ours. There is no hint in scripture or traditional Church teachings that hell is just an intense form of purgatory, a delusional state from which God will rescue all of us (and perhaps even the devils?).

I choose not to speculate in this direction, for fear that every evil will sooner or later be rewarded, even against our will. If we are truly free, we must be free to choose hell, and then be free to carry on forever with that choice.

And whether nothingness is preferable to hell, I don’t know that. Nor does anyone else … except God.

 

[Betterave]

Actually, revisiting your post, I’m a little more hesitant about the re-phrasings. Particularly this one:

Is “spew” referring to creation, or what?

Anyway, it’s kind of pointless for me to try answers, here, since I only asked the questions because I didn’t have answers . I’m really just trying to reconcile inconsistencies I see in the concept of Catholicism’s God, so that’s why I’m here.

“Spew” refers to Rev 3:16. It says: “because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am going to spew/vomit you out of my mouth.”

Inconsistencies? If you see inconsistencies in the Catholic concept of God, what are these? I don’t see where you’ve pointed any out. Alternately, if you just don’t like the Catholic concept of God, that would be a different issue. Can you clarify?

 

[Betterave]

I agree with you, Dennis, that God does not send us to hell but if there came a stage at which we could not repent we would no longer have free will! Surely God in His infinite mercy and love would not take away the gift by which we most resemble Him. Without free will we would be incapable of love and even the power of reasoning. It would be more merciful to let us disappear rather than allow us to exist forever in such a hopeless state!

Mercy and justice. Surely God in his infinite mercy will not forget about his infinite justice. He allows us to destroy the gift of freedom he gives us. That is a consistent message in the Catholic tradition. Wishful thinking doesn’t change this.

 

[slywakka250]

I agree with you, Dennis, that God does not send us to hell but if there came a stage at which we could not repent we would no longer have free will! Surely God in His infinite mercy and love would not take away the gift by which we most resemble Him. Without free will we would be incapable of love and even the power of reasoning. It would be more merciful to let us disappear rather than allow us to exist forever in such a hopeless state!

Yes Absolutely. .

betterave:

IOW: what’s wrong with mediocrity/lukewarmness? Why should God spew from his mouth those who want to - and who choose to want to - do what they feel like rather than seeking to do *God’s *will? IOW: Why shouldn’t those who choose to ignore the doctor’s advice that they are sick unto death be cured and escape death anyway?

The possibility that even one created being, angel or man (the devil included) will suffer torment in hell for eternity is incompatible with a good and loving God.

An important point to remember is that No one tolerates hell. Even those who looked forward to hell eagerly while on earth, will regret their eagerness for eternity among tortures and pains, which cannot be enjoyed in any sense whatsoever, because those in hell have lost the presence of God and all pleasure and all that is good. They will not “become accustomed” to hell after a billion years, the tortures are ever new, as scripture clearly states, the worm does NOT die, and the fire is NOT quenched!

My main contention is that while God has given us free will, he has largely left us in the dark as to how to exercise that free will so as to avoid hell. Moreover, if he were to show us how to avoid hell (he doesn’t), it is certain that no one, not even the devil himself, would choose hell. As I said above, no one tolerates hell! That is why no one would choose it.

The fact that he has given us his Son, the Church, the Sacraments, etc, does *not *in anyway demonstrate that the choice is clear and certain for all men.

why? because these means of salvation are meaningless to all of those people who do not make use of them, or do not believe in them.

Look at all the world religions; all those who don’t believe in any God, and all the variations of belief and spirituality, that have gone back to the point where man first came into existence, (quite likely over 100,000 years ago!)

Man is largely groping in the dark, and has been throughout his existence as a species. If the existence of the Christian God and the Catholic Church as the true Church, were as certain as so many Catholics say it is, every living person, without exception would believe and accept heaven

why? because hell is so bad, that we would clearly recognize that all the pleasure associated with disobeying God, and loving sin in this life, pales unimaginably to the pains and fire of even one second in hell. So no one would choose hell.

If anyone goes to hell, we know that God then created the universe knowing that some would suffer in hell eternally, because he is omniscient. St. Thomas teaches that the number of the predestined are directly willed and determined by God, and that this does not contradict with free will. That’s possible, but this does establish *odds.

*At the end of time there will be a final count of a number of people in heaven, vs a number of people in hell. This ratio of heaven/hell is a perfect ratio which God knew when he created the universe. It could not be otherwise unless he created man without knowing how many would choose him, which is impossible as then God would not be omniscient

God has taken this gamble for us, by creating us, already knowing what we will freely choose, he has placed an eternal bet on our souls, our “great gift” of free will so to speak. But no one knows where he will end up until after death, and it may well be that the many more go to hell than heaven; the fact that God has raised the stakes to this level, instead of allowing for "mediocrity, some middle ground (say annihilation) " is a terror which is completely contrary to any human notion of a loving God.

Maybe God just is cruel and a bully, and we have to accept that. I’m working on it, I really want to love God again!!

 

[Betterave]

Yes Absolutely. .

The possibility that even one created being, angel or man (the devil included) will suffer torment in hell for eternity is incompatible with a good and loving God.

An important point to remember is that No one tolerates hell. Even those who looked forward to hell eagerly while on earth, will regret their eagerness for eternity among tortures and pains, which cannot be enjoyed in any sense whatsoever, because those in hell have lost the presence of God and all pleasure and all that is good. They will not “become accustomed” to hell after a billion years, the tortures are ever new, as scripture clearly states, the worm does NOT die, and the fire is NOT quenched!

My main contention is that while God has given us free will, he has largely left us in the dark as to how to exercise that free will so as to avoid hell. Moreover, if he were to show us how to avoid hell (he doesn’t), it is certain that no one, not even the devil himself, would choose hell. As I said above, no one tolerates hell! That is why no one would choose it.

The fact that he has given us his Son, the Church, the Sacraments, etc, does *not *in anyway demonstrate that the choice is clear and certain for all men.

why? because these means of salvation are meaningless to all of those people who do not make use of them, or do not believe in them.

This is a non sequitur and irrelevant to your claim that God is a bully. The means you mention are ordinary means. Extraordinary means are available to those who through no fault of their own do not avail themselves of the ordinary means.

Look at all the world religions; all those who don’t believe in any God, and all the variations of belief and spirituality, that have gone back to the point where man first came into existence, (quite likely over 100,000 years ago!)

Relevance?

Man is largely groping in the dark, and has been throughout his existence as a species. If the existence of the Christian God and the Catholic Church as the true Church, were as certain as so many Catholics say it is, every living person, without exception would believe and accept heaven

why? because hell is so bad, that we would clearly recognize that all the pleasure associated with disobeying God, and loving sin in this life, pales unimaginably to the pains and fire of even one second in hell. So no one would choose hell.

This argument doesn’t make sense. It is a non sequitur.

If anyone goes to hell, we know that God then created the universe knowing that some would suffer in hell eternally, because he is omniscient. St. Thomas teaches that the number of the predestined are directly willed and determined by God, and that this does not contradict with free will. That’s possible, but this does establish odds.

Sure, if you want to put it that way…although doing so is misleading, since you make it sound like a random lottery instead of omniscient justice. But so what?

At the end of time there will be a final count of a number of people in heaven, vs a number of people in hell. This ratio of heaven/hell is a perfect ratio which God knew when he created the universe. It could not be otherwise unless he created man without knowing how many would choose him, which is impossible as then God would not be omniscient

God has taken this gamble for us, by creating us, already knowing what we will freely choose, he has placed an eternal bet on our souls, our “great gift” of free will so to speak. But no one knows where he will end up until after death, and it may well be that the many more go to hell than heaven; **the fact that God has raised the stakes to this level, instead of allowing for "mediocrity, some middle ground (say annihilation) " is a terror which is completely contrary to any human notion of a loving God. **

This is simply and obviously false. Can you see that?

Maybe God just is cruel and a bully, and we have to accept that. I’m working on it, I really want to love God again!!

Do you understand the force of my questions? Do you have answers for them (particularly the last)?

 

[tonyrey]

*It would be more merciful to let us disappear rather than allow us to exist forever in such a hopeless state! *

This I take to be the bottom line of any argument in favor of abolishing hell, if not immediately, at least at some point down the line.

There is a more reasonable alternative!

Whether God will in His infinite mercy abolish hell is God’s business, not ours. There is no hint in scripture or traditional Church teachings that hell is just an intense form of purgatory, a delusional state from which God will rescue all of us (and perhaps even the devils?).

I agree…

I choose not to speculate in this direction, for fear that every evil will sooner or later be rewarded, even against our will. If we are truly free, we must be free to choose hell, and then be free to carry on forever with that choice.

There is no doubt about that whatsoever! By the same token we must **always **be free to repent and atone for the evil we have caused.

And whether nothingness is preferable to hell, I don’t know that. Nor does anyone else … except God.

There are formidable difficulties in the annihilation theory:

1. God is the Creator not the Destroyer.
2. We are created in His image and therefore indestructible.
3. It is contrary to the teaching of Jesus.
4. It would be an admission of defeat.
5. No one is ever beyond the power of redemption by God’s infinite love.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with you, Dennis, that God does not send us to hell but if there came a stage at which we could not repent we would no longer have free will! Surely God in His infinite mercy and love would not take away the gift by which we most resemble Him. Without free will we would be incapable of love and even the power of reasoning. It would be more merciful to let us disappear rather than allow us to exist forever in such a hopeless state!

The key words are “without free will”!

The possibility that even one created being, angel or man (the devil included) will suffer torment in hell for eternity is incompatible with a good and loving God.

Not if they choose of their own free will to reject God and exist for themselves…

An important point to remember is that No one tolerates hell. Even those who looked forward to hell eagerly while on earth, will regret their eagerness for eternity among tortures and pains, which cannot be enjoyed in any sense whatsoever, because those in hell have lost the presence of God and all pleasure and all that is good. They will not “become accustomed” to hell after a billion years, the tortures are ever new, as scripture clearly states, the worm does NOT die, and the fire is NOT quenched!

No one would opt for hell if it did not have its compensations. Only an irresponsible lunatic would choose to exist in a state of undiluted misery! To be completely independent and absolute master of one’s own destiny must be a source of great pleasure and satisfaction. Even in this world the lust for power can become an obsession…

My main contention is that while God has given us free will, he has largely left us in the dark as to how to exercise that free will so as to avoid hell.

God would not be infinitely good if He left us in the dark. Hell is not a trap into which we fall unwittingly. It is a state of isolation resulting from a clear-sighted rejection of God.

Moreover, if he were to show us how to avoid hell (he doesn’t), it is certain that no one, not even the devil himself, would choose hell. As I said above, no one tolerates hell! That is why no one would choose it.

You underestimate the magnitude of the lust for absolute power…

The fact that he has given us his Son, the Church, the Sacraments, etc, does *not *in anyway demonstrate that the choice is clear and certain for all men.

why? because these means of salvation are meaningless to all of those people who do not make use of them, or do not believe in them.

God’s grace is not restricted to those who believe…

Look at all the world religions; all those who don’t believe in any God, and all the variations of belief and spirituality, that have gone back to the point where man first came into existence, (quite likely over 100,000 years ago!)
Man is largely groping in the dark, and has been throughout his existence as a species. If the existence of the Christian God and the Catholic Church as the true Church, were as certain as so many Catholics say it is, every living person, without exception would believe and accept heaven.

We have to be in the dark to some extent; otherwise we would not be free. But there is light in the darkness…

why? because hell is so bad, that we would clearly recognize that all the pleasure associated with disobeying God, and loving sin in this life, pales unimaginably to the pains and fire of even one second in hell. So no one would choose hell.

That notion of hell is clearly absurd!

If anyone goes to hell, we know that God then created the universe knowing that some would suffer in hell eternally, because he is omniscient. St. Thomas teaches that the number of the predestined are directly willed and determined by God, and that this does not contradict with free will. That’s possible, but this does establish *odds.
*

St Thomas was not infallible!

At the end of time there will be a final count of a number of people in heaven, vs a number of people in hell. This ratio of heaven/hell is a perfect ratio which God knew when he created the universe. It could not be otherwise unless he created man without knowing how many would choose him, which is impossible as then God would not be omniscient

If we are genuinely free there is never a final count! Ratios do not apply to eternity…

God has taken this gamble for us, by creating us, already knowing what we will freely choose, he has placed an eternal bet on our souls, our “great gift” of free will so to speak. But no one knows where he will end up until after death, and it may well be that the many more go to hell than heaven; the fact that God has raised the stakes to this level, instead of allowing for "mediocrity, some middle ground (say annihilation) " is a terror which is completely contrary to any human notion of a loving God.

God does not gamble! He shares His power with us so that we can choose to love Him and others or ourselves. Either way He is successful because freedom is the greatest gift anyone can have…

Maybe God just is cruel and a bully, and we have to accept that. I’m working on it, I really want to love God again!!

How could you want to love a bully?! God would not be eternal if He were cruel because evil is self-destructive.

 

[slywakka250]

tonyrey:

slywakka250:

Quote:
An important point to remember is that No one tolerates hell. Even those who looked forward to hell eagerly while on earth, will regret their eagerness for eternity among tortures and pains, which cannot be enjoyed in any sense whatsoever, because those in hell have lost the presence of God and all pleasure and all that is good. They will not “become accustomed” to hell after a billion years, the tortures are ever new, as scripture clearly states, the worm does NOT die, and the fire is NOT quenched!

No one would opt for hell if it did not have its compensations. Only an irresponsible lunatic would choose to exist in a state of undiluted misery! To be completely independent and absolute master of one’s own destiny must be a source of great pleasure and satisfaction. Even in this world the lust for power can become an obsession…

So your saying that because hell allows one to be master of his own density, hell will be a place of great pleasure and satisfaction(to an extent anyway)? This is contrary to the normal definition of hell as a place of torture. I would say if hell has any pleasure it really can’t be called hell. Are you saying hell is tolerated by the damned? are you saying my version of hell is too harsh? that maybe its not quite as bad as undiluted misery?? Then hey, I might just get used to it in hell, sure I won’t be fullfilled or happy, but I won’t be screeching and thrashing in the flames of pure torture either??

tonyrey:

If we are genuinely free there is never a final count! Ratios do not apply to eternity…

I am merely asserting that the population of heaven and the population of hell are countable after the final judgement. There are a finite number of humans created, and each person has a definitive and final destination in heaven or hell, and not both. How can you deny a final count? do you see heaven and hell as less than eternal(i.e. you might be able to transfer from one to the other, so the count is always changing?)

This count represents a real number. how can it not? human souls are not divisible. and each person from a finite set of persons is in heaven or hell. Now surely God knows the final count! how could you say he does not know it? he is omniscient. And even if he doesn’t know it completly, he will know it after the final judgement without question. He is not going to lose sight of some people or make a miscalucation with his perfect justice. He knows each of us inside and out, the hairs on our head are numbered, etc.

Thus we have established that a final count exists, certainy in God’s omnicience and forknowledge, and even more so in reality after the final judgement.

This final count establishes the danger of existing as a rational created being in this universe. Surely sin is dangerous, if you sin too much and don’t repent you could end up in hell. the Church warns us to pray and stay close to God, lest we become lost. Hell is not in anyway a good thing, even for evil people. It is a horrible fate, perhaps deserved, but it remains a place of undiluted misery and torture, as it must be for everyone one there who is seperated from God, the very purpose of each man’s existence.

Now by virtue of our creation in a race with original sin, we have been exposed to this risky and dangerous place. Its like we were all born into a city after a nuclear bomb(original sin) had unleased a tremendous ammount of radiation. If we dont’ find our way to a shelter, and escape the radiation we will surely die. However, the existence of the radiation is in question. many of the other city inhabitants go about their business, completly unaware of the harmful radiation slowly killing them.

The final count is also a measure of the difficulty level of salvation. It might be relativily easy to get to heaven, or it might be nearly impossible. we do not know, because we do not know the final count. But God does! God created the human will, the human heart, and all the physical and spiritual world. He knows what’s in the heart of men. He fashioned all the workings of man’s mind and heart. A man can not even take a breath if God does not allow it!

Maybe God created ALL men so that they ALL could choose him if they wanted, but the fact that he knew SOME or many would not choose him, (but choose hell instead), necessarily puts a limitation on our free will. While each person may indeed make a completly free choice, the results are fixed in the sense that God set the rules of the game, so that there is only room for a certain number of people in heaven. ,

God is like an airline that overbooks a flight, knowing that not everybody will show up. Each person who bought a ticket has complete free will as to wheather or not to come and claim their seat, but the plane nonetheless can not hold all of them. But its not a problem because the nature of things is such that a certain number of people are very likely to cancel. In the same way the nature of the universe is such that a certain number of people are likely to choose hell.

The fact that the plane is not big enough to hold all the people is one reason I am angry at God, and am struggling with this issue so much. Can someone try to explain where I am wrong here? I really want to love my faith again. This issue has bothered me immensly for the past year or so, and I can’t seem to resolve it. Everytime I go to pray or read the scriptures, I feel angry at God for creating me and subjecting me to this risk of hell. I’m really frustrated and fear I may be tempted to leave the Church

 

[aperture]

“Spew” refers to Rev 3:16. It says: “because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am going to spew/vomit you out of my mouth.”

Inconsistencies? If you see inconsistencies in the Catholic concept of God, what are these? I don’t see where you’ve pointed any out. Alternately, if you just don’t like the Catholic concept of God, that would be a different issue. Can you clarify?

The inconsistencies (that I see) are what I referred to earlier. The idea that people can be pretty content committing what are apparently mortal sins on earth, but upon death end up in a place of eternal torture.

Now, Catholicism says that God is infinitely loving - but that He is also infinitely just (there’s a contradiction here, though, because if God established what justice is so that justice requires punishment…well, that’s not altogether loving). However, I posit that an infinitely loving God not only could but would allow sinners to at the very least stop existing rather than endure sheer agony forever.

Really, the idea that sinners see Hell and immediately start freaking out and want to change (at particular/general judgment) and somehow can’t seems so ridiculous and cruel as to be an idea of human origin, not divine.

 

[Betterave]

The inconsistencies (that I see) are what I referred to earlier. The idea that people can be pretty content committing what are apparently mortal sins on earth, but upon death end up in a place of eternal torture.

Now, Catholicism says that God is infinitely loving - but that He is also infinitely just (there’s a contradiction here, though, because if God established what justice is so that justice requires punishment…well, that’s not altogether loving). However, I posit that an infinitely loving God not only could but would allow sinners to at the very least stop existing rather than endure sheer agony forever.

Really, the idea that sinners see Hell and immediately start freaking out and want to change (at particular/general judgment) and somehow can’t seems so ridiculous and cruel as to be an idea of human origin, not divine.

Kant made the point that pleasure (or contentment) as such is not a good thing. If one gets pleasure from spitting in an innocent person’s face, that pleasure is not good because injustice is bad. Its replacement with pain, in this context, is good, because justice is good. Do you understand that point? (Your remarks seem to ignore it.)

Justice is not an arbitrary imposition of God. It is as real and immutable as God himself.

Be careful not to dismiss an idea before you understand it.

 

[Betterave]

So your saying that because hell allows one to be master of his own density, hell will be a place of great pleasure and satisfaction(to an extent anyway)? This is contrary to the normal definition of hell as a place of torture. I would say if hell has any pleasure it really can’t be called hell. Are you saying hell is tolerated by the damned? are you saying my version of hell is too harsh? that maybe its not quite as bad as undiluted misery?? Then hey, I might just get used to it in hell, sure I won’t be fullfilled or happy, but I won’t be screeching and thrashing in the flames of pure torture either??

Caveat emptor: Many of Tony’s claims are contrary to normal (orthodox) definitions.

I am merely asserting that the population of heaven and the population of hell are countable after the final judgement. There are a finite number of humans created, and each person has a definitive and final destination in heaven or hell, and not both. How can you deny a final count? do you see heaven and hell as less than eternal(i.e. you might be able to transfer from one to the other, so the count is always changing?)

This count represents a real number. how can it not? human souls are not divisible. and each person from a finite set of persons is in heaven or hell. Now surely God knows the final count! how could you say he does not know it? he is omniscient. And even if he doesn’t know it completly, he will know it after the final judgement without question. He is not going to lose sight of some people or make a miscalucation with his perfect justice. He knows each of us inside and out, the hairs on our head are numbered, etc.

Thus we have established that a final count exists, certainy in God’s omnicience and forknowledge, and even more so in reality after the final judgement.

This final count establishes the danger of existing as a rational created being in this universe. Surely sin is dangerous, if you sin too much and don’t repent you could end up in hell. the Church warns us to pray and stay close to God, lest we become lost. Hell is not in anyway a good thing, even for evil people. It is a horrible fate, perhaps deserved, but it remains a place of undiluted misery and torture, as it must be for everyone one there who is seperated from God, the very purpose of each man’s existence.

Now by virtue of our creation in a race with original sin, we have been exposed to this risky and dangerous place. Its like we were all born into a city after a nuclear bomb(original sin) had unleased a tremendous ammount of radiation. If we dont’ find our way to a shelter, and escape the radiation we will surely die. However, the existence of the radiation is in question. many of the other city inhabitants go about their business, completly unaware of the harmful radiation slowly killing them.

You were doing fine until you got to this point. If the people are completely unaware, they are protected… unless they are ‘completely unaware’ only because they have chosen to refuse to listen to warnings, in which case they are not completely unaware, they are just pretending to be. You always forget the element of justice. Bullies are not just. God is.

The final count is also a measure of the difficulty level of salvation. It might be relativily easy to get to heaven, or it might be nearly impossible. we do not know, because we do not know the final count. But God does! God created the human will, the human heart, and all the physical and spiritual world. He knows what’s in the heart of men. He fashioned all the workings of man’s mind and heart. A man can not even take a breath if God does not allow it!

Maybe God created ALL men so that they ALL could choose him if they wanted, but the fact that he knew SOME or many would not choose him, (but choose hell instead), necessarily puts a limitation on our free will. While each person may indeed make a completly free choice, the results are fixed in the sense that God set the rules of the game, so that there is only room for a certain number of people in heaven.

Of course there are limits on our free will (just like there are on everything else about us)! That’s obvious, and that’s why those who want to act as though there are no limits are screwed, and why it’s their own fault!

God is like an airline that overbooks a flight, knowing that not everybody will show up. Each person who bought a ticket has complete free will as to wheather or not to come and claim their seat, but the plane nonetheless can not hold all of them. But its not a problem because the nature of things is such that a certain number of people are very likely to cancel. In the same way the nature of the universe is such that a certain number of people are likely to choose hell.

The fact that the plane is not big enough to hold all the people is one reason I am angry at God, and am struggling with this issue so much. Can someone try to explain where I am wrong here? I really want to love my faith again. This issue has bothered me immensly for the past year or so, and I can’t seem to resolve it. Everytime I go to pray or read the scriptures, I feel angry at God for creating me and subjecting me to this risk of hell. I’m really frustrated and fear I may be tempted to leave the Church

The plane is not a plane. It is heaven which has many mansions and God is not limited in the number he can build, even if there is a limit in the number he does build. And this number follows upon the number of souls who freely choose him, not vice versa. Bad analogy.

 

[aperture]

Kant made the point that pleasure (or contentment) as such is not a good thing. If one gets pleasure from spitting in an innocent person’s face, that pleasure is not good because injustice is bad. Its replacement with pain, in this context, is good, because justice is good. Do you understand that point? (Your remarks seem to ignore it.)

Justice is not an arbitrary imposition of God. It is as real and immutable as God himself.

Be careful not to dismiss an idea before you understand it.

Justice can’t be “real and immutable as God himself” if God defined everything. That doesn’t make any sense. That’s like saying a book I wrote is as real and immutable as I am.

 

[Betterave]

Justice can’t be “real and immutable as God himself” if God defined everything. That doesn’t make any sense. That’s like saying a book I wrote is as real and immutable as I am.

We believe that God is eternal and that justice is an attribute flowing from God’s eternally perfect essence. (That’s nothing like if you wrote a book.) We believe that we can recognize justice, since justice is in fact JUST (and not merely a conventional and external imposition of rules). Would you say you are unable to do so?

 

[tonyrey]

This is contrary to the normal definition of hell as a place of torture.

If there is torture it must be **self-imposed **because a loving Father cannot be a torturer!

are you saying my version of hell is too harsh?

It is important to realise the Jews used hyperbole in their teaching. When Jesus said we should cut off our hand if it offends us He did not mean it literally. Similarly when He described hell as a place of everlasting fire He was using symbolic language. It is no good mincing words when you are warning ordinary people about the horrific reality of evil and its consequences. The absurd notion of Our Lord being meek and mild is refuted by his condemnation of the Pharisees as a nest of vipers. They were exploiting the poor and making them feel they were sinners and outcasts - as you seem to feel! Yet at the same time it is essential to emphasize how we can be dragged down if we are not vigilant because we are poised between two extremes - heaven and hell. It is difficult to grasp the full implications of free will and our absolute responsibility for what we make of ourselves.
Even our Creator cannot compel us to live as He wishes. He cannot even prevent us from rejecting His love. By making us in His image He has chosen to share His power with us forever and He will never renegue on His decision. That is why human beings can commit diabolical atrocities. One atheist philosopher became a Christian because he realised such unnatural behaviour requires a supernatural explanation…

I am merely asserting that the population of heaven and the population of hell are countable after the final judgement.

If we are genuinely free there is never a final count!

do you see heaven and hell as less than eternal(i.e. you might be able to transfer from one to the other, so the count is always changing?)

Heaven and hell are eternal all right but we are not concerned with physical objects but spiritual beings with free will.

Surely sin is dangerous, if you sin too much and don’t repent you could end up in hell.

Without being aware of the danger? Do you think God is waiting to pounce?

Hell is … a horrible fate, perhaps deserved, but it remains a place of undiluted misery and torture…

I have pointed out why hell cannot be a state of undiluted misery. No rational person would choose to exist forever in such a state. And if a person is irrational he or she does not deserve to suffer. This is a matter of inexorable logic…

Now by virtue of our creation in a race with original sin, we have been exposed to this risky and dangerous place.

Original sin simply means we are exposed to an evil environment inherited from our ancestors and liable to temptation but the power of God’s love revealed in His sacrifice on the Cross more than compensates for that disadvantage. Felix culpa…

The final count is also a measure of the difficulty level of salvation. It might be relativily easy to get to heaven, or it might be nearly impossible. we do not know, because we do not know the final count.

The infinite love of God ensures that heaven is far easier to attain than hell. The only obstacle lies within ourselves because **the final decision rests with us **and not with God. The fact that Jesus chose to die for us means that we can trust Him implicitly without the slightest doubt or hesitation. Love casts out fear…

Maybe God created ALL men so that they ALL could choose him if they wanted, but the fact that he knew SOME or many would not choose him, (but choose hell instead), necessarily puts a limitation on our free will.

There are no limits to the number of persons in heaven because we alone are responsible for our eternal destiny. It is important to grasp the fact that the buck stops with us - without any if’s or but’s!

God is like an airline that overbooks a flight, knowing that not everybody will show up.

In that case He is not perfect!

In the same way the nature of the universe is such that a certain number of people are likely to choose hell.

Probability does not come into this at all. Otherwise God Himself would be subject to the laws of probability - which is absurd.

The fact that the plane is not big enough to hold all the people is one reason I am angry at God, and am struggling with this issue so much.

The fatal flaw in your concept of heaven is that it is a place. You are imposing limits on God’s omnipotence! **It is possible for everyone without exception to be in heaven **because, as you yourself have pointed out, that is why we are created. There is no reason to be angry with God because those who reject Him are obtaining precisely what they want and deserve.

Everytime I go to pray or read the scriptures, I feel angry at God for creating me and subjecting me to this risk of hell.

**There is absolutely no risk of hell if we sincerely do what we believe is right and love others to the best of our ability. **Hell is not a trap into which we fall accidently but a destiny we choose deliberately - with full knowledge of the consequences.

I’m really frustrated and fear I may be tempted to leave the Church

You have become unduly preoccupied with the negative aspect of freedom… We cannot have it both ways. Our lives consist of a series of choices whether we like it or not.
We cannot remain static. Do you think leaving the Church will solve your problem? We either become better or become worse. If you believe in good and evil at all you have to commit yourself one way or the other. As Sartre, an atheist, rightly pointed out we cannot sit on the fence, perhaps not aware he was echoing the words of Jesus “He who is not for me is against me…”

 

[tonyrey]

This is contrary to the normal definition of hell as a place of torture.

If there is torture it must be **self-imposed **because a loving Father cannot be a torturer!

are you saying my version of hell is too harsh?

It is important to realise the Jews used hyperbole in their teaching. When Jesus said we should cut off our hand if it offends us He did not mean it literally. Similarly when He described hell as a place of everlasting fire He was using symbolic language. It is no good mincing words when you are warning ordinary people about the horrific reality of evil and its consequences. The absurd notion of Our Lord being meek and mild is refuted by his condemnation of the Pharisees as a nest of vipers. They were exploiting the poor and making them feel they were sinners and outcasts - as you seem to feel! Yet at the same time it is essential to emphasize how we can be dragged down if we are not vigilant because we are poised between two extremes - heaven and hell. It is difficult to grasp the full implications of free will and our absolute responsibility for what we make of ourselves.
Even our Creator cannot compel us to live as He wishes. He cannot even prevent us from rejecting His love. By making us in His image He has chosen to share His power with us forever and He will never renegue on His decision. That is why human beings can commit diabolical atrocities. One atheist philosopher became a Christian because he realised such unnatural behaviour requires a supernatural explanation…

I am merely asserting that the population of heaven and the population of hell are countable after the final judgement.

If we are genuinely free there is never a final count!

do you see heaven and hell as less than eternal(i.e. you might be able to transfer from one to the other, so the count is always changing?)

Heaven and hell are eternal all right but we are not concerned with physical objects but spiritual beings with free will.

Surely sin is dangerous, if you sin too much and don’t repent you could end up in hell.

Without being aware of the danger? Do you think God is waiting to pounce?

Hell is … a horrible fate, perhaps deserved, but it remains a place of undiluted misery and torture…

I have pointed out why hell cannot be a state of undiluted misery. No rational person would choose to exist forever in such a state. And if a person is irrational he or she does not deserve to suffer. This is a matter of inexorable logic…

Now by virtue of our creation in a race with original sin, we have been exposed to this risky and dangerous place.

Original sin simply means we are exposed to an evil environment inherited from our ancestors and liable to temptation but the power of God’s love revealed in His sacrifice on the Cross more than compensates for that disadvantage. Felix culpa…

The final count is also a measure of the difficulty level of salvation. It might be relativily easy to get to heaven, or it might be nearly impossible. we do not know, because we do not know the final count.

The infinite love of God ensures that heaven is far easier to attain than hell. The only obstacle lies within ourselves because **the final decision rests with us **and not with God. The fact that Jesus chose to die for us means that we can trust Him implicitly without the slightest doubt or hesitation. Love casts out fear…

Maybe God created ALL men so that they ALL could choose him if they wanted, but the fact that he knew SOME or many would not choose him, (but choose hell instead), necessarily puts a limitation on our free will.

There are no limits to the number of persons in heaven because we alone are responsible for our eternal destiny. It is important to grasp the fact that the buck stops with us - without any if’s or but’s!

God is like an airline that overbooks a flight, knowing that not everybody will show up.

In that case He is not perfect!

In the same way the nature of the universe is such that a certain number of people are likely to choose hell.

Probability does not come into this at all. Otherwise God Himself would be subject to the laws of probability - which is absurd.

The fact that the plane is not big enough to hold all the people is one reason I am angry at God, and am struggling with this issue so much.

The fatal flaw in your concept of heaven is that it is a place. You are imposing limits on God’s omnipotence! **It is possible for everyone without exception to be in heaven **because, as you yourself have pointed out, that is why we are created. There is no reason to be angry with God because those who reject Him are obtaining precisely what they want and deserve.

Everytime I go to pray or read the scriptures, I feel angry at God for creating me and subjecting me to this risk of hell.

**There is absolutely no risk of hell if we sincerely do what we believe is right and love others to the best of our ability. **Hell is not a trap into which we fall accidently but a destiny we choose deliberately - with full knowledge of the consequences.

I’m really frustrated and fear I may be tempted to leave the Church

I fear you have become obsessed with the negative aspect of freedom… We cannot have it both ways. Our lives consist of a series of choices whether we like it or not.
We cannot remain static. Do you think leaving the Church will solve your problem? We either become better or become worse. If you believe in good and evil at all you have to commit yourself one way or the other. As the atheist Sartre rightly pointed out we cannot sit on the fence, perhaps not aware he was echoing the words of Jesus “He who is not for me is against me…”

 

[aperture]

We believe that God is eternal and that justice is an attribute flowing from God’s eternally perfect essence. (That’s nothing like if you wrote a book.) We believe that we can recognize justice, since justice is in fact JUST (and not merely a conventional and external imposition of rules). Would you say you are unable to do so?

Hmmm. This is a difficult concept for me to wrap my head around. In other words, it is in God’s fundamental nature to be just. Therefore, the creation for which He is responsible should be just as well…?

 

[johnnyprc]

What if someone in Hell decides he/she would rather die than stay there, or…wishes to repent and serve God?

The gift of life is just that - a gift from God. If we decide we dont want it, we don’t have to take it (free will). If we cannot die, but are condemned forever to live being punished - that is cruel and unusual punishment. Its like burying someone alive, but they cant die.

We should (and do) have the right to tell God we dont accept his gift…and that is it. This idea that if you dont accept it on God’s terms, you will be forced to some terrible existence is ridiculous and counters everything God is about.

 

[Betterave]

Hmmm. This is a difficult concept for me to wrap my head around. In other words, it is in God’s fundamental nature to be just.

Yes.

Therefore, the creation for which He is responsible should be just as well…?

Sort of. We believe that man (and angels) in particular are created “in God’s image,” meaning that they share in the divine nature in a limited way, and are called to do so in a fuller way. This sharing in God’s nature consists in having intellect and will, i.e., the ability to know and to love. When you know and love, as humans do, you are inevitably responsible for being just. If you don’t know anything or if you don’t love anyone, then you are not responsible. But everyone knows and loves to some extent (although young children and the severely diabled are special cases), so everyone is to some extent responsible for recognizing the demands of justice, and, though it sounds strange, for accepting the justness of justice. There’s plenty more that could be said, but I’ll leave it at that for now and let you respond.