The Problem of Hell

[johnnyprc]

Betterave:

Sometimes the truth is difficult to hear. What I am saying SHOULD be simple to grasp. Unless you believe that Christianity predates Greek mythology, then the concept of Hell existed before Christianity. Also predating Christianity was Judaism. Judaism did not teach a place existed like hell. Sheol was the a place where ALL persons (good or bad) went - yet there was no consciousness in that figurative place.

So again, Catholics have decided to adopt the Greek mythology view of death instead of what God’s chosen people taught. I suppose that seems logical to you, so we know where you stand.

 

[Betterave]

Betterave:

Sometimes the truth is difficult to hear. What I am saying SHOULD be simple to grasp. Unless you believe that Christianity predates Greek mythology, then the concept of Hell existed before Christianity. Also predating Christianity was Judaism. Judaism did not teach a place existed like hell. Sheol was the a place where ALL persons (good or bad) went - yet there was no consciousness in that figurative place.

So again, Catholics have decided to adopt the Greek mythology view of death instead of what God’s chosen people taught. I suppose that seems logical to you, so we know where you stand.

You’re quite right, johnny, about the difficulty of hearing the truth sometimes. Sometimes this is because of the fact that really *hearing *(i.e., understanding) the truth always presupposes a prior acquisition of other truths. To help you with this prerequisite so far as this context goes, I suggest you read John Henry Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. It is available online.

newmanreader.org/works/development/index.html

As to what seems logical to me, your false dichotomy does not. If you read Newman’s essay (even just the intro and first chapter or so - to the end of chapter 5 would probably be better) you should be able to understand why not.

 

[johnnyprc]

Betterave:

What I find so interesting is that you do not respond to my points directly. My comments are not complex (as the truth often is not complex). The lie, however, requires philosophical essays and abstract though to support. Thank you for sharing this, and I always enjoy reading.

That said, please consider my points directly if you want to state how wrong I am. The problem is that you cannot argue my points - they are a matter of history, not theology. Greeks came up with the whole Hades eternal punishment first. Jew did not believe in such a place. The Church now teaches a version of the Greek theology/mythology - not the Jewish one.

 

[Betterave]

Betterave:

What I find so interesting is that you do not respond to my points directly. My comments are not complex (as the truth often is not complex). The lie, however, requires philosophical essays and abstract though to support. Thank you for sharing this, and I always enjoy reading.

That said, please consider my points directly if you want to state how wrong I am. The problem is that you cannot argue my points - they are a matter of history, not theology. Greeks came up with the whole Hades eternal punishment first. Jew did not believe in such a place. The Church now teaches a version of the Greek theology/mythology - not the Jewish one.

The truth (as I see it ) is that I did respond directly to your points (see #474). You are the one who did not respond directly to my direct response, so, not wanting to try to hit a moving target, I did not respond directly to the new points you raised in your non-response to my original direct response. Make sense?

…so now who’s ‘lying’? (…to himself, perhaps?) Maybe it’s not as clear as you first thought? In any case, what lie are you referring to here? “Lie” is strong language, so please do point out the lie you are referring to, and do so directly.

On history vs. theology: the truth is, these are not mutually exclusive categories, as you seem to think. Is that what you really think?

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Betterave:
So again, Catholics have decided to adopt the Greek mythology view of death instead of what God’s chosen people taught.

Why would one assume that one follows the other (even if there are similarities)? Satan mocks God.

 

[Gregory_I]

Are God’s punishments vindictive or medicinal? Do God’s punishmentsd (which are always just) Aim for reform, or are they doled out for their own sake?

IS it possible that we who are darkened in intellect and will and just all over plagued by sin, can we really have the kind of knowledge necessary to make a definitive choice against God?

Suppose a person was an atheist and hated God because of an inaccurate example of who he was. Like the angry judgemental Father figure who is ready to damn you at a moments notice. Salvation is not so much being saved from our enemies, Death and the Devil, but salvation from GOD’s implaccable wrath.

Well, God rejects this view of himself too.

Was the person wrong to reject this notion he knew in his heart to be false?

SO how can finite creatures in ignorance and sin possibly offer infinite offense?

 

[Betterave]

Are God’s punishments vindictive or medicinal? Do God’s punishmentsd (which are always just) Aim for reform, or are they doled out for their own sake?

Neither (sometimes they serve as a natural incitement to reform - but sometimes they induce further rebellion). They are doled out for the sake of justice.

IS it possible that we who are darkened in intellect and will and just all over plagued by sin, can we really have the kind of knowledge necessary to make a definitive choice against God?

Yes - remember: our darkened intellects are darkened *by *sin and are thus a sign of the justice of our being punished. Can we have a definitive knowledge of who has made such a definitive choice? Not so much. But God certainly can!

Suppose a person was an atheist and hated God because of an inaccurate example of who he was. Like the angry judgemental Father figure who is ready to damn you at a moments notice. Salvation is not so much being saved from our enemies, Death and the Devil, but salvation from GOD’s implaccable wrath.

Remember Jesus’ parable about the servant who hid his talent because he knew his master was a hard master, reaping where he had not sown, etc.? Remember what happened to him? What do you think the point of this parable is?

Well, God rejects this view of himself too.

Which view? Yours?

Was the person wrong to reject this notion he knew in his heart to be false?

Kind of depends on whether what he ‘knew’ in his heart was actually true!

SO how can finite creatures in ignorance and sin possibly offer infinite offense?

They can’t. That’s not the point of hell. Did anyone ever say it was?

 

[johnnyprc]

GodLovesTheSpek:

Yes, Satan mocks God - God does not mock Satan. The Hell you believe in was FIRST conceptualized by Greeks (or Satan). Did Satan, though the Greeks, somehow have Hell right before God told us about it???

The Church cannot get away from history, no matter how much much it tries.

JP

 

[johnnyprc]

Betterave:

My issue and question is simple. How can you explain why the Church decided to adopt a view of Hell held by the Greeks, and not the Jews? My greater point is that the Catholic Church is one big pagan orgy of theology - but the first question is simple enough.

JP

 

[bingbang]

GodLovesTheSpek:

Yes, Satan mocks God - God does not mock Satan. The Hell you believe in was FIRST conceptualized by Greeks (or Satan). Did Satan, though the Greeks, somehow have Hell right before God told us about it???

The Church cannot get away from history, no matter how much much it tries.

JP

I don’t think that the Christian concept of hell was the same as the Greek concept of Hades. It might have gone by the same name at points of the Bible, but I don’t think it was identical. From what I have heard from scholars, the devil that Jesus talked about was the popular jewish view of the devil at the time.

And to be honest, though I believe in God I do not believe in hell. The concept makes very little sense to me and does not seem compassionate. My friend who is an atheist (brought up Catholic) told me that if he died, and God was there he would say “I didn’t believe in you on earth, but I obviously believe in you now.”

People always say that people willingly put themselves in hell. I am pretty sure that when anyone died, and they had the choice of going to heaven or hell, everyone would pick heaven. But, if you don’t have that choice, than it is God that put you in hell. And I don’t feel as though hell should be permanent.

I just feel as if the whole concept is a ploy to scare people into acting like better people.

 

[johnnyprc]

The Greek version of Hades is very similar to that of the Church’s version of Hell. Wikipedia references:

“Greek philosophy introduced the idea that all mortals are judged after death and are either rewarded or cursed.” - Aeneid, book 6

“It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering” Tartarus Part of Hades

“souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus/Hades”

“In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid as a gigantic place, surrounded by the flaming river Phlegethon”

“In most English Bibles, the word Tartarus is simply translated as Hell, even though early Christian writers usually used the term Gehenna, the Hinnom Valley, to mean hell.”

The bottom line is that the Church decided to develop the Greek mythology version of Hades for their doctrine of Hell. What is so interesting is that they could have easily just used the Hebrew version of Gehenna to describe the state of the dead - but I guess that wasn’t as fear inspiring.

 

[davidv]

The Greek version of Hades is very similar to that of the Church’s version of Hell. Wikipedia references:

“Greek philosophy introduced the idea that all mortals are judged after death and are either rewarded or cursed.” - Aeneid, book 6

“It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering” Tartarus Part of Hades

“souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus/Hades”

“In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid as a gigantic place, surrounded by the flaming river Phlegethon”

“In most English Bibles, the word Tartarus is simply translated as Hell, even though early Christian writers usually used the term Gehenna, the Hinnom Valley, to mean hell.”

The bottom line is that the Church decided to develop the Greek mythology version of Hades for their doctrine of Hell. What is so interesting is that they could have easily just used the Hebrew version of Gehenna to describe the state of the dead - but I guess that wasn’t as fear inspiring.

Truth is truth no matter who found it first. One does not need to be Catholic to have access to the truth.

The real bottom line is that the Church teaches the Truth about hell. It really doesn’t matter whether any of this truth was apprehended prior to the institution of the Church.

 

[bingbang]

Truth is truth no matter who found it first. One does not need to be Catholic to have access to the truth.

The real bottom line is that the Church teaches the Truth about hell. It really doesn’t matter whether any of this truth was apprehended prior to the institution of the Church.

Well, according to you it is truth. You really have absolutely no idea though and no real evidence. There is just as much of a chance of reincarnation than a heaven and hell.

 

[Betterave]

Betterave:

My issue and question is simple. How can you explain why the Church decided to adopt a view of Hell held by the Greeks, and not the Jews? My greater point is that the Catholic Church is one big pagan orgy of theology - but the first question is simple enough.

JP

lol! Still refusing to respond to me directly, JP? Given what you wrote to me (“What I find so interesting is that you do not respond to my points directly”) I guess you ought to find that pretty interesting. (I guess it’s also possible that you’re just a hypocrite, although I’m sure there may be some other explanation…) To answer your question here, “the Jews” obviously didn’t have any definitive doctrine of Hell (and still don’t). They also had no definitive doctrine about the resurrection of the body (try reading the New Testament sometime - this historical fact plays an important role in a number of places). That explains why the Church had good reason not to simply “adopt” the view of “the Jews.”

On the other hand, the Church obviously did not simply “adopt” the view of the “the Greeks” - this would have been impossible for much the same reasons.

As to your “greater point”… LOL - you’re a fun guy, JP. However, a ‘point’ in philosophical discourse is supposed to be more than a groundless assertion of one’s opinion (if your statement here can even be called an opinion, as opposed to an emotional outburst).

 

[Betterave]

And to be honest, though I believe in God I do not believe in hell. The concept makes very little sense to me and does not seem compassionate. My friend who is an atheist (brought up Catholic) told me that if he died, and God was there he would say “I didn’t believe in you on earth, but I obviously believe in you now.”

People always say that people willingly put themselves in hell. I am pretty sure that when anyone died, and they had the choice of going to heaven or hell, everyone would pick heaven. But, if you don’t have that choice, than it is God that put you in hell. And I don’t feel as though hell should be permanent.

I just feel as if the whole concept is a ploy to scare people into acting like better people.

hey bingbang,
welcome to the thread. Have you read any of it? Your points have already been raised and addressed ad nauseam. It would be great if you would read through, find something specific to disagree with, and then offer your rebuttal.

 

[davidv]

Well, according to you it is truth. You really have absolutely no idea though and no real evidence. There is just as much of a chance of reincarnation than a heaven and hell.

How would you know this? Sounds like an overactive imagination to me.

 

[bingbang]

hey bingbang,
welcome to the thread. Have you read any of it? Your points have already been raised and addressed ad nauseam. It would be great if you would read through, find something specific to disagree with, and then offer your rebuttal.

500 posts is a bit much. God sends people to hell, people don’t send themselves to hell. Just like a judge sends a murderer to jail. If that murderer never got caught, I am pretty sure he wouldn’t check himself into jail. The judge sent him there. If the judge said “you should probably go to jail, but it is your choice”…I am pretty sure 100% of criminals would say “I’m not going to jail.”

Either God sends people to hell or hell does not exist.

 

[bingbang]

How would you know this? Sounds like an overactive imagination to me.

An overactive imagination? Hinduism has over a billion followers…I guess they must have overactive imaginations.

I am just saying that no one knows what happens after you die. It is impossible to know because no one has come back from the dead and told us. So if people start coming back from the dead and telling us what the afterlife is like, we can know for sure. Since that has never happened and likely will never happen, we just don’t know.

 

[johnnyprc]

Betterave:

1. I dont know what you are talking about when you say I am not responding to your points directly. Did I miss a post? What points are you saying I am not responding to you on?
2. Jews absolutely had a doctrine on the resurrection. You could not be more wrong. In fact, it was a defining line between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Jesus was asked specifically about the resurrection on more than one occasion.

You logic that Jews lacked knowledge of a resurrection and therefore it made sense they lacked knowledge of Hell does not work. Please try again.

 

[johnnyprc]

Betterave and davidv:

It matters very much where a doctrine came from. What you imply is that Greeks could very well have had a measure of truth in their mythology, and the fact they had it first makes no difference to the fact the Church teaches a similar doctrine of the afterlife.

Even though I strongly disagree with that idea, you have a greater problem with that logic to overcome. The fact is that Jews were God’s chosen people, and we know what the prophets and anointed said from God was true. They existed parallel in time with the Greeks, and had a very different teaching of the afterlife.

So, by your position, Greeks could be more right on a subject that God’s inspired prophets. If that is your position, there is no discussing the point any longer. Go worship your pagan Church.