The Problem of Hell

[Seeker2010]

Remember, that for a sin to be Mortal it must be committed in full knowlege - so, if we in full knowlege and with full consent choose this life over the next, and choose ourselves over God we have to deal with the consequences.

Well, I would opine that as mortal humans we are incapable of having full knowledge. There are multiple, incompatible holy books and religions to choose from, and even within a single religion there is considerable debate about a host of issues. The overwhelming majority of humans go to the grave with whatever religion their parents taught them, and I have a hard time believing that a just God would punish what amounts to the vast majority of humanity just for having been born to loving, yet misguided parents. I also think a reasonable person can examine things and conclude, as I have, that no man made religion is correct.

Look at it this way… What if Islam is right, and Catholicism wrong? How many Catholics do you know who have taken a step back, studied all the available choices, and concluded based on research rather than momentum that Catholicism is correct?

PS… I am not trying to disrespect you or your faith, but it seems debate from non-Catholics is encouraged here, and it seems to me the Philosophy folder is a good place for that.

 

[Desertsailor]

Well, I would opine that as mortal humans we are incapable of having full knowledge. There are multiple, incompatible holy books and religions to choose from, and even within a single religion there is considerable debate about a host of issues. The overwhelming majority of humans go to the grave with whatever religion their parents taught them, and I have a hard time believing that a just God would punish what amounts to the vast majority of humanity just for having been born to loving, yet misguided parents. I also think a reasonable person can examine things and conclude, as I have, that no man made religion is correct.

Look at it this way… What if Islam is right, and Catholicism wrong? How many Catholics do you know who have taken a step back, studied all the available choices, and concluded based on research rather than momentum that Catholicism is correct?

PS… I am not trying to disrespect you or your faith, but it seems debate from non-Catholics is encouraged here, and it seems to me the Philosophy folder is a good place for that.

Of course you’re quite right about man made religions. Catholicism on the other hand was given to us by God.

 

[Seeker2010]

Of course you’re quite right about man made religions. Catholicism on the other hand was given to us by God.

ALL of the other religions would say the same thing about themselves. Do you suppose a just, fair, and loving God would send them to an eternity in torture for believing thusly?

 

[Seeker2010]

I apologize for replying twice before giving you the chance to acknowledge it, but I just noticed your signature statement, which is:

I’m a hardcore Catholic. I believe everything the Church teaches without question.<<

If your church is right, their teachings will survive questioning, and I would think any arbiter of truth would welcome it. I look at it from a business perspective, I WELCOME anyone to test my product to see if it works as I have advertised, as indeed it will.

Blind faith is exactly that. Blind. If it cannot withstand any scrutiny, than it does not deserve any adherence.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I apologize for replying twice before giving you the chance to acknowledge it, but I just noticed your signature statement, which is:

I’m a hardcore Catholic. I believe everything the Church teaches without question.<<

Indeed. But our faith is such that we believe it WILL survive such questioning if you care to try.

 

[Desertsailor]

ALL of the other religions would say the same thing about themselves. Do you suppose a just, fair, and loving God would send them to an eternity in torture for believing thusly?

How many times do I have to say it? God doesn’t send anyone to hell, they send themselves there and are happy to go. God didn’t make hell, the demons did.
What religions can say the same thing? Protestantism was founded by men on a book. Buddha was a man and never claimed to be god and said there isn’t any god. Muhammad was just a Camel boy with an over active imagination.

If you ask the same question over and over it doesn’t make it a legitimate question.

A just, fair, and loving God will give you a chance to make up your own mind where you want to spend eternity.

 

[Desertsailor]

I apologize for replying twice before giving you the chance to acknowledge it, but I just noticed your signature statement, which is:

I’m a hardcore Catholic. I believe everything the Church teaches without question.<<

The Catholic Church has withstood more scrutiny than you can give it. Our faith isn’t blind. I don’t think I even have faith. I have knowledge of fact.

 

[lemondiesel]

What religions can say the same thing? Buddha was a man and never claimed to be god and said there isn’t any god. Muhammad was just a Camel boy with an over active imagination.

Islam is the belief in One God, and Muhammad was his prophet. Everything Muhammad teaches, was said to him by God. If you are saying because Jesus was God, therefore Catholicism was given by God, you must provide evidence that he in fact was God. A book about his life (NT) that was not even written by Jesus, but by man (…after the death of Jesus) shows you that you have no more evidence than any other religion claiming to be “right”

The Catholic Church has withstood more scrutiny than you can give it. Our faith isn’t blind. I don’t think I even have faith. I have knowledge of fact.

Yeah, you guys already have enough trouble with a Pope who “has never touched boys” but somehow he is okay with it???..some Scrutiny there. And to say you have knowledge of fact is a large reason why so many people are against organized religion. The fact of knowledge you should know, is that science is changing the "**how **everything came to be " aspect of religion, not the other way around.

To say you do not have faith, but knowledge of fact is one of the most arrogant posts I have ever seen on this forum. For all we know,** No one** could be right, which is why you have faith, not knowledge.

 

[Desertsailor]

Islam is the belief in One God, and Muhammad was his prophet. Everything Muhammad teaches, was said to him by God. If you are saying because Jesus was God, therefore Catholicism was given by God, you must provide evidence that he in fact was God. A book about his life (NT) that was not even written by Jesus, but by man (…after the death of Jesus) shows you that you have no more evidence than any other religion claiming to be “right”

Yeah, you guys already have enough trouble with a Pope who “has never touched boys” but somehow he is okay with it???..some Scrutiny there. And to say you have knowledge of fact is a large reason why so many people are against organized religion. The fact of knowledge you should know, is that science is changing the "**how **everything came to be " aspect of religion, not the other way around.

To say you do not have faith, but knowledge of fact is one of the most arrogant posts I have ever seen on this forum. For all we know,** No one** could be right, which is why you have faith, not knowledge.

I have knowledge of fact.

The rest of your post has too many holes in it for me to even try to respond to it.

 

[JohnDamian]

To say you do not have faith, but knowledge of fact is one of the most arrogant posts I have ever seen on this forum. For all we know,** No one** could be right, which is why you have faith, not knowledge.

For myself the existence of God is as obvious, if not more obvious; and as real as the observable world around me. If this does not constitute knowlege then I do not know what does.

 

[Betterave]

Yeah, you guys already have enough trouble with a Pope who “has never touched boys” but somehow he is okay with it???..some Scrutiny there. And to say you have knowledge of fact is a large reason why so many people are against organized religion. The fact of knowledge you should know, is that science is changing the "**how **everything came to be " aspect of religion, not the other way around.

To say you do not have faith, but knowledge of fact is one of the most arrogant posts I have ever seen on this forum. For all we know,** No one** could be right, which is why you have faith, not knowledge.

This seems to be one of those random really ignorant, vague, fallacious attacks against Pope Benedict XVI. I don’t know what you’re talking about, but please keep such apparently stupid, irresponsible, off-topic comments to yourself. I refer you to this thread if you would like to actually inform yourself about the Pope and “touching boys.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=446810&page=5

p.s.: remember your lip-service to the golden rule? So how would you like it if you or someone you loved were viciously slandered?

 

[Betterave]

ALL of the other religions would say the same thing about themselves. Do you suppose a just, fair, and loving God would send them to an eternity in torture for believing thusly?

No. Have you read the whole thread? I thought we’d discussed ‘invincible ignorance’ already. Ring any bells?

 

[Betterave]

I also think a reasonable person can examine things and conclude, as I have, that no man made religion is correct.

I think a reasonable person can examine things and conclude, as I have, (1) that no religion is entirely man-made and (2) that otherwise reasonable people who have examined the question and come to the contrary conclusion are not in fact being reasonable.

Look at it this way… What if Islam is right, and Catholicism wrong?

If Islam is right, I hope that insh’Allah I am chosen to be one of those who will take the straight path. Right? (How else can one reasonably answer this question?)

PS… I am not trying to disrespect you or your faith, but it seems debate from non-Catholics is encouraged here, and it seems to me the Philosophy folder is a good place for that.

Debate all you want, your challenges are welcome here. And thank you for your courtesy.

 

[Zatzat]

I think a reasonable person can examine things and conclude, as I have, (1) that no religion is entirely man-made and (2)

Please explain how you believe that Scientology wasn’t completely man made by Ron Hubbard? If you do believe it wasn’t completely man made, please share with everyone, what supernatural entity assisted Hubbard?

Serious question.

 

[PJM]

=VeritasSeeker;6741327]Hey, I am writing a paper on the the problem of hell and wold like to hear your opinions/ answers on this “problem”, (anihilationism): We are finite beings and therefore can only sin a finite amount. So our temporal sins can only warrant a temporal punishment. Therefore, If God is all just, then hell cannot be eternal. This annihilationist view is held by Seventh day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It must be admitted that this is, at least at first glance, a powerful argument. God could damn people for aeons and aeons and then annihilate them instead of damning them for eternity.

• Thanks in advance!

***Very interesting!

The basic premis is wrong. You and they assume that God’ Judgment may be at fault?

IMPOSSIBLE: “God is all Good things [and only good things] Perfected.” Simply put: God could not “be God and be wrong.”

Second: It IS NOT GOD, but we ourselves that freely choose and determine* where WE CHOOSE to spend Eternity. God simply affirms our own freewill decisions.

Which is one of the two precise reasons that God Created us with minds, intellects and freewills, SO WE COULD AND WOULD DESIDE FOR OURSELVES. **

Love and prayers,

 

[Seeker2010]

But our faith is such that we believe it WILL survive such questioning if you care to try.

But will it?

Your faith teaches that if you are unbaptized and/or die in a state of mortal sin (which as I understand it is having committed a mortal sin without subsequently receiving absolution from a priest) you are going to hell.

Which means myself, my entire family, every Buddhist, Jew, Muslim, Protestant, and Sikh who is now alive or once was is headed for hell.

And yet, the closest thing we have to evidence of God and an afterlife (the NDE), if real, teaches the exact opposite. That all are welcome in the light, even those unlucky enough to have been born Jewish. So, if you give credibility to NDE’s, and of course I have no way to know if you do, how do you reconcile the idea that your church is right about everything, yet seemingly wrong about something so, well, important!

Now, I believe that the NDE also teaches that if you wish, you are welcome to be separate from the light which is similar to language used by the church, but it is not something that is forced on you because you neglected to seek absolution for having used a condom, and it is a decision you can reverse at your discretion.

 

[Seeker2010]

I have knowledge of fact.

Fact is measurable. Repeatable. Document-able.

The earth is 93,000,000 miles from the Sun.
It is approximately 12 billion years old.
Water freezes, under normal circumstances, at roughly 32 degrees F.

Whether or not there is a God, and more to the point, the accuracy of any specific religion is not now, and will not ever be one unless God himself chooses to reveal himself in an unambiguous way. And I mean like taking over all of our broadcasts, appearing in person in our homes, and landing aliens on the whitehouse lawn simultaneously unambiguous, not sending a messenger to a time and place where reasonable people can study the stories and conclude different things.

 

[Seeker2010]

No. Have you read the whole thread? I thought we’d discussed ‘invincible ignorance’ already. Ring any bells?

Actually, no I haven’t, as it turns out. When I posted my original reply for some reason I thought I had, but I was mistaken. Can you point me to the discussion of ‘invincible ignorance’ as it is a term with which I am unfamiliar.

 

[Seeker2010]

I think a reasonable person can examine things and conclude, as I have, (1) that no religion is entirely man-made.

Is it therefore your position that religions other than Catholicism lead (or at least can lead) to salvation? Is that not contradictory to the church’s very own teachings?

 

[Cristiano]

I think a reasonable person can examine things and conclude, as I have, (1) that no religion is entirely man-made

That is quite simple because every man is hard wired to believe in God and Natural Law is a clear example of the hard wiring.

Is it therefore your position that religions other than Catholicism lead (or at least can lead) to salvation? Is that not contradictory to the church’s very own teachings?

Just because a religion is not entirely man made, that does not imply that salvation is achievable through it. Man is still affected by the original sin and concupiscence and so it can mess up his relationship (religo in Latin) with God. One example is by pretending that some of God given Truths are not absolute or that they are false.

You also need to know that a person that is ignorant of Christ and that completely obeys the Natural Law is not supposed to despair about salvation.