The Problem of Hell

[Abbax8]

What bothers me here is that many people do what is pleasurable, and they are quite content with their God-less existence. They die, and then WHAM. Eternal torture!. They are completely shocked at the realization as the flames start to torture them. Many didn’t even believe in God, much less did they believe in hell.

Look at it this way. A person decides there is no such thing as gravity. Gravity will still exist because its existence is independent of any persons belief in it. If a non-believer steps off a cliff, they will fall to the ground despite their lack of belief.

Another example from nature: A person does not believe in Momentum. If they step in front of a train, they will will experience the full effect of the law of Momentum.

The Laws of Nature exist independent of whether anyone believes in them or not.

Just so, God exists, despite our belief or non-belief in Him. In fact it is God whose thoughts cause things (us and Natures Laws) to exist. If He stops believing and thinking of us, then we will cease, but His nature is to Be, to Exist and He keeps us all in existence with Him.

He is the Creator, we are the Created Creatures.

Dennis

 

[momor]

The problem is not that a person would choose to exclude God, the problem is that a choice made in this one lifetime, is then rendered unchangable for eternity.

You think a God would be clever enough, to eventually bring all those that completely reject him(if he exists) back into the fold.

At the end of the day, God is 100% accountable, for every tiny bit of suffering, and every 'tortured" soul that is (supposedly) in Hell.

Makes him a bit of a monster, if you support traditional christian views.

Think of it this way. If you commit 1st degree murder and are sentenced to life without parole does it matter if you are sorry later when you find out how awful prison is? Or even if your sorrow is genuine for taking a life and not just self-pity? Should you be let out just because of that? No. You are expected to serve your sentence because that is justice. How much more so when the offense is against God.

The lesson here is know God’s laws and don’t violate them and don’t pretend they don’t exist. It won’t help you in the afterlife any more than the same attitude will help you in this one. At least in this life you have a chance to run and hide and escape justice. You won’t have that in the next.

 

[Betterave]

‘My son,’ said the courteous Master [Virgil] ‘all those that die in the wrath of God assemble here from every land; and they are eager to cross the river [to enter hell], for divine justice so spurs them that fear turns to desire.’ (Dante, Inferno, Canto III)

Note: It is not that they care for the divine justice, but that the divine justice operates in their perversity; they work out their own damnation and are headlong and eager in it and cannot now be otherwise, for their sin is their doom. (John D. Sinclair, 1979)

 

[dcastlen50]

‘My son,’ said the courteous Master [Virgil] ‘all those that die in the wrath of God assemble here from every land; and they are eager to cross the river [to enter hell], for divine justice so spurs them that fear turns to desire.’ (Dante, Inferno, Canto III)

Note: It is not that they care for the divine justice, but that the divine justice operates in their perversity; they work out their own damnation and are headlong and eager in it and cannot now be otherwise, for their sin is their doom. (John D. Sinclair, 1979)

I like this. It reminds me of part of C.S. Lewis’ view of hell. However, I do not think this is Catholic dogma. If I am correct, shouldn’t we note that in our post. I hope you do not think I am being critical; just trying to firm up my views and caution those who take these premises as dogma.

 

[Betterave]

I like this. It reminds me of part of C.S. Lewis’ view of hell. However, I do not think this is Catholic dogma. If I am correct, shouldn’t we note that in our post. I hope you do not think I am being critical; just trying to firm up my views and caution those who take these premises as dogma.

I like it too, and Lewis’ take too (esp. The Great Divorce). And quite right, it’s not a statement of dogma. It’s poetry; but it is supposed to be compatible with the Catholic faith (that was Dante’s intention, I believe).

 

[dcastlen50]

I like it too, and Lewis’ take too (esp. The Great Divorce). And quite right, it’s not a statement of dogma. It’s poetry; but it is supposed to be compatible with the Catholic faith (that was Dante’s intention, I believe).

Why do you note, " I don’t believe in God, I believe in science" as a signature?

BTW, there are some serious mistakes in Dante’s Infernal. One being that he prayed some out of hell; can’t be don’t. Here I go again being critical.

 

[Betterave]

Why do you note, " I don’t believe in God, I believe in science" as a signature?

It’s a line from the movie Nacho Libre. I thought it was hilarious as presented in the movie, and although it’s a really stupid thing to say, it actually seem to be the basic stupid idea underlying a lot of atheist belief, although it rarely gets stated so baldly.

BTW, there are some serious mistakes in Dante’s Infernal. One being that he prayed some out of hell; can’t be don’t. Here I go again being critical.

Maybe so; I haven’t got to that part yet. Do you know which Canto? He also puts a canonized saint (Pope Celestine) on the borders of hell… but that’s beside the point!

 

[crazzeto]

Wrong! We are not finite beings. Apparently once a spiritual entity is created, it exists forever even God cannot destroy it.
This is the case with the Fallen Angels; annihilation would have been much better for them but it is not possible.

You will never cease to exist. Time & space only exist on this plane; once you pass over you are in the dimension of eternity so your question has no validity. You will exist in perfect Bliss or total pain. The choice of course is ours.

I realize that this was posted a long time ago, but it’s worth noting that we are infact finite… It may be that we will exist for ever, from the point at which we were created based upon the promises of God… But we have not always existed, we were infact created. More over, we will never be able to fully grasp the divine intellect, indeed the angels them selves can not grasp it. Thus we are very my a finite being. Which is A-OK by me, I think I’d do terribly as an truely infinate one.

 

[dcastlen50]

It’s a line from the movie Nacho Libre. I thought it was hilarious as presented in the movie, and although it’s a really stupid thing to say, it actually seem to be the basic stupid idea underlying a lot of atheist belief, although it rarely gets stated so baldly

Nacho Libre? Free Nacho?
I don’t get to the movies often. Is this an English movie. The last movie I saw was the Ten Commandments. I think it starred Mel Gibson or some guy Charleston Wayne or John Heston.

 

[crazzeto]

Nacho Libre? Free Nacho?
I don’t get to the movies often. Is this an English movie. The last movie I saw was the Ten Commandments. I think it starred Mel Gibson or some guy Charleston Wayne or John Heston.

(edited)
The 10 commandments by director Cecil B. DeMille, staring Charlton Heston. It is worthy of note, that this is a remake of DeMills 1923 black and white silent movie The Ten Commandments staring Theodore Roberts. The latest delux version of the DVD set contains both versions and upscales VERY nicely on a 50" HDTV using an HQV Reon equipped scalar. I haven’t tried it on my anchorbay toshiba yet

No, I’m not a home theater geek.

 

[Betterave]

Nacho Libre? Free Nacho?
I don’t get to the movies often. Is this an English movie. The last movie I saw was the Ten Commandments. I think it starred Mel Gibson or some guy Charleston Wayne or John Heston.

lol! It is an American movie actually, set in Mexico. It is, in my estimation, one of the best Catholic movies starring Jack Black as a postulant(?) religious friar who wants to become a luchador (wrestler) of all time.

 

[asker42]

It may be that God cannot justly make a finite soul as that would change the concept of what a soul is

 

[Aleii]

I have not ever, not even when I was a child, questioned the notion of hell. If you assault some guy on the street, you are going to get jail time. But if that guy turns out to be a judge, you are in deeper trouble!

If you sin, you are sinning against the Most High, who is infinitely good and pure beyond your imagining. Ponder that when you sin. I have heard it described from one of the saints that, in hell, you will see how your sins grievously offended this infinitely good and pure God, and you will weep in sorrow, and that will be your pain.

The laws of the area you live in are pretty clear about what is illegal, and what the consequences are. There are thousands of religions out there, and thus there is no clear rulebook to life that everyone clearly understands to be accurate. Punishment is not at issue here, the issue is that hell is eternal with no hope of redemption.

I’m not sure if you have heard of St. Faustina, but she is becoming a very popular saint these days. Her diary is all about divine mercy, but there is one unusual passage in it in which she describes a vision of hell that she received. There are a number of details, but the one that stuck me was her discovery that the majority of the souls in hell did not believe in hell during their earthly lives.

If someone does not hold the understanding that hell/heaven/Jesus exists, then how can they make a clear choice to accept or reject Jesus?

I can believe that some people are defiant and choose to not believe in God and in His teachings because they get in the way of their lifestyle. This however is not the same as being invincibly ignorant about God and His teachings.

This is a common misconception about those who don’t believe. The majority (or at least a large amount) don’t believe because they don’t understand how it is true. Can you choose to believe that 1+1=3? Belief is not like a lightswitch.

Think of it this way. If you commit 1st degree murder and are sentenced to life without parole does it matter if you are sorry later when you find out how awful prison is? Or even if your sorrow is genuine for taking a life and not just self-pity? Should you be let out just because of that? No. You are expected to serve your sentence because that is justice. How much more so when the offense is against God.

The lesson here is know God’s laws and don’t violate them and don’t pretend they don’t exist. It won’t help you in the afterlife any more than the same attitude will help you in this one. At least in this life you have a chance to run and hide and escape justice. You won’t have that in the next.

One part of being loving is to always have your arms outstretched to those who have harmed you. I do not see how hell being permanent is loving.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

If someone does not hold the understanding that hell/heaven/Jesus exists, then how can they make a clear choice to accept or reject Jesus?

The latest catechetical teaching is that Christ is the only way and the Church must teach this way, however God (in a manner known only to Himself) can bring those who are ignorant of Christ into His way. Understanding is important but is not a prerequisite.

This is a common misconception about those who don’t believe. The majority (or at least a large amount) don’t believe because they don’t understand how it is true. Can you choose to believe that 1+1=3? Belief is not like a lightswitch.

Despite the rantings of guys like Dawkins and Hitchens, we all know deep down that the nihilistic vision of a temporal life followed by oblivion, then the oblivion of all who remember us, and finally the oblivion of all sentient life, cannot have any ultimate meaning. Upon facing this, we either bury our heads in the distractions of the world or begin seeking out another answer. If your search is uncompromising and persistent, you will eventually discover this answer and you will understand why it is true. You are quite correct in observing that belief is not like a light switch, at least for most of us.

 

[tonyrey]

One part of being loving is to always have your arms outstretched to those who have harmed you. I do not see how hell being permanent is loving.

Another part of being loving is to respect the freedom of those who reject your love even if they continue to do so for all eternity…

 

[Aleii]

Another part of being loving is to respect the freedom of those who reject your love even if they continue to do so for all eternity…

Someone who is in hell has no chance of being saved. How is ‘no chance’ loving? Where then is this freedom you speak of if they can not change their mind after realizing their mistake? Why not just put everyone in purgatory so that possibility of change would exist?

 

[Aleii]

The latest catechetical teaching is that Christ is the only way and the Church must teach this way, however God (in a manner known only to Himself) can bring those who are ignorant of Christ into His way. Understanding is important but is not a prerequisite.

I don’t see how, given clear and complete knowledge in the end to make a choice, one would choose hell, knowing full well the suffering they would be in there and the seemingly inability to ‘change’ their choice. Why go to a place where one knows they will be ‘wailing and gnashing their teeth’?

Well I guess I could see some insane person choosing that, but then again an insane person wouldn’t be liable for their choice right? So would the insane person go to hell as per their wishes or would they go to heaven because they don’t have the mental capacity to ‘choose’? Really then, should humans at all be given the opportunity to ‘choose’ something so grandiose in scale, when the answer can’t be taken back? Humans, as flawed beings make mistakes, but this is one that for some reason a tri-omni God can’t or won’t undo which seems to contradict the very nature of a tri-omni God.

Why not at least put everyone from hell in purgatory, so there is always a possibility of being saved?

 

[davidv]

Someone who is in hell has no chance of being saved. How is ‘no chance’ loving? Where then is this freedom you speak of if they can not change their mind after realizing their mistake? Why not just put everyone in purgatory so that possibility of change would exist?

Whoever ends up in hell had a whole lifetime of chances.

 

[dcastlen50]

Whoever ends up in hell had a whole lifetime of chances.

**That’s the damned truth or
Damn, is that the truth?, or Is that truth damned or Damn truth. **.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

I don’t see how, given clear and complete knowledge in the end to make a choice, one would choose hell, knowing full well the suffering they would be in there and the seemingly inability to ‘change’ their choice.

In another thread the OP asked why Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast into hell despite having intimate angelic knowledge of Him. A bunch of us tried valiantly to answer this but he didn’t buy any of it and declared that he was abandoning Catholicism. This question when applied to humans is difficult but at least we know a few things about human nature. First of all our knowledge is always incomplete. Secondly we enjoy the rush of rebelling against authority, regardless of whether that authority is just. And thirdly, we often choose to do things that we know ahead of time could injure or even destroy us. I could go on, but I think these factors alone can explain why someone might jump into a bottomless pit.

Well I guess I could see some insane person choosing that, but then again an insane person wouldn’t be liable for their choice right?

How does one define insanity? Is it based upon observably odd behaviour? I don’t think so, since the guy who shoots down 10 of his fellow employees is often described as polite, normal, a good neighbour and so on. Does it depend on a psychiatrist’s certification? I doubt it. If you have ever visited a psychiatric ward you will find many patients who are surprisingly clear headed. I think insanity is directly related to delusional thinking. This is why a quite functional individual may be convinced that he is the reincarnation of King Arthur, and this delusion makes him somewhat insane. The greatest delusion, in my estimation, is to deny the hypostatic union. You will never be put into an asylum for this, but it is a form of insanity. Will the insanity defense work when we stand before Christ? Who knows, but I can think of a much safer strategy.