The problem of ignorance: An Arguement Against Gods Existence

[MindOverMatter2]

This is just a question. This question does not express my own point of view; and I do in fact have my own answers to this question. I just want to see it debated. This problem is the cousin of the problem of evil.

Problem: God has high demands and presents the threat of hell, and never the less expects us to take allot of it on faith. Not all can understand the arguments for Gods existence and many are slaves to arguments that appear to undermine Christian faith. We would not expect people to accept the divine commands of other religions on mere faith; and thus neither should we expect reasonable people to follow or dedicate their lives to divine laws that are not true in the Absence of Gods existence.

Question: In light of this, why does God permit ignorance and leaves so much to faith when God knows that our souls are in so much danger? Surely the answer is either that God doesn’t care, in which case this God is not Christian; or God doesn’t exist, in which case there is no hell or moral law to fret about.

God bless and peace be with you.

 

[Scoobyshme]

This is just a question. This question does not express my own point of view; and I do in fact have my own answers to this question. I just want to see it debated. This problem is the cousin of the problem of evil.

Problem: God has high demands and presents the threat of hell, and never the less expects us to take allot of it on faith. Not all can understand the arguments for Gods existence and many are slaves to arguments that appear to undermine Christian faith. We would not expect people to accept the divine commands of other religions on mere faith; and thus neither should we expect reasonable people to follow or dedicate their lives to divine laws that are not true in the Absence of Gods existence.

Question: In light of this, why does God permit ignorance and leaves so much to faith when God knows that our souls are in so much danger? Surely the answer is either that God doesn’t care, in which case this God is not Christian; or God doesn’t exist, in which case there is no hell or moral law to fret about.

God bless and peace be with you.

Well, seeing as we aren’t born with the knowledge God intends for mankind, in general to have about Him, we could safely assume we are a “work in process.”

Since God is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful, we can expect that God will not hold us accountable for that which we could have not known, due to either circumstances in our lives (no one told us/we never heard of Jesus, etc.) or insufficient intellect (retarded, too young, low IQ, etc.). God, therefore, must judge each of us to the level that we are capable and culpable. There is the concept of invincible ignorance, whereby one will not be found “guilty” (culpable) by God because we could not have known. Then, there is the concept of culpable ignorance, whereby we had the intellectual capacity, time and opportunity to know, but as an act of our free will chose not to know. These will be held liable by God.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Well, seeing as we aren’t born with the knowledge God intends for mankind, in general to have about Him, we could safely assume we are a “work in process.”

Since God is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful, we can expect that God will not hold us accountable for that which we could have not known, due to either circumstances in our lives (no one told us/we never heard of Jesus, etc.) or insufficient intellect (retarded, too young, low IQ, etc.). God, therefore, must judge each of us to the level that we are capable and culpable. There is the concept of invincible ignorance, whereby one will not be found “guilty” (culpable) by God because we could not have known. Then, there is the concept of culpable ignorance, whereby we had the intellectual capacity, time and opportunity to know, but as an act of our free will chose not to know. These will be held liable by God.

Good answer.

 

[rcwhiteh]

Since God is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful…

Is it more reasonable to say that God is PERFECTLY just and PERFECTLY merciful? Infinite mercy implies that everyone is already forgiven…

Other than that, I loved the answer.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Is it more reasonable to say that God is PERFECTLY just and PERFECTLY merciful? Infinite mercy implies that everyone is already forgiven…

Other than that, I loved the answer.

Well, I like “perfectly.”

Keep in mind, though, that God is outside of time. He does not live moment to moment like we do. He is simultaneously in the past, present, and future, and sees all three as you and I see the present moment before us. He already knows our ultimate end, although we still have to live it out and make our own free-will choices toward that end.

 

[reggieM]

This is just a question. This question does not express my own point of view; and I do in fact have my own answers to this question. I just want to see it debated. This problem is the cousin of the problem of evil.

Problem: God has high demands and presents the threat of hell, and never the less expects us to take allot of it on faith. Not all can understand the arguments for Gods existence and many are slaves to arguments that appear to undermine Christian faith. We would not expect people to accept the divine commands of other religions on mere faith; and thus neither should we expect reasonable people to follow or dedicate their lives to divine laws that are not true in the Absence of Gods existence.

Question: In light of this, why does God permit ignorance and leaves so much to faith when God knows that our souls are in so much danger? Surely the answer is either that God doesn’t care, in which case this God is not Christian; or God doesn’t exist, in which case there is no hell or moral law to fret about.

God bless and peace be with you.

Rather than end the discussion after we already got a great answer , here’s a twist:

God has high demands and presents the threat of hell, and never the less expects us to take allot of it on faith.

True, but faith is a part of life, even for atheists. If the evidence is there, shouldn’t we all reach out to God in faith?

Not all can understand the arguments for Gods existence and many are slaves to arguments that appear to undermine Christian faith.

This is probably true, but I find it a mystery that I can’t grasp. How is it possible that anyone cannot understand the arguments for the existence of God? I would sincerely like to know how it is possible for an atheist to shut off even the possibility of God. Why wouldn’t the person want to investigate, by reading Catholic literature and the many testimonies of great people who were believers? Atheism does not provide certainty, so some belief is still necessary. Why not explore belief in God and learn with an open mind? Why the hostility and ridicule, etc?

We would not expect people to accept the divine commands of other religions on mere faith; and thus neither should we expect reasonable people to follow or dedicate their lives to divine laws that are not true in the Absence of Gods existence.

True, but doesn’t God give some solid and reasonable arguments that others should be able to accept?

Now, back to the question … if, after trying to understand belief in God, a person cannot make the intellectual connection, then there can’t be any fault in that.

But the intellectual connection is not merely a brain process. It’s a question of willingness. Is there an obstacle in the will (or desire) of the person? If so, what kind of choice has caused that obstacle? If it’s a matter of blocking off arguments that lead to God, then that would be a serious problem.

 

[archistrage]

“I will give them natural hearts, on which I will inscribe my law.”
“This commandment I give to you; love others, as I have loved you.”
“The greatest commandment is thing; you shall love the Lord God with all you heart, and all your soul. The second is likewise; you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself. All of the law and the prophets depend on these two laws.”

When we are born, we are completely helpless. Almost every other animal on Earth is able to walk within hours, if not minutes after its birth. Most can do many other things as well. We cannot. We are completely dependent upon our parents to take care of us: to feed us, shelter us, and protect us.

Our entire species depends on us being cared for by our parents. If there is no love, there is no species. And there must be love. Parenthood cannot merely be this obligation we have. Threats come and go. Food is abundant, and then scarce. A parent must be willing to sacrifice for their child. Willing to defend them when the threat is present, and risk injury or death for them. When food is scarce, the parent must be willing to give up what they have, so that their child can be kept healthy.

Without love, without the sacrifice when needed, there can be no continuation of the species.

Our species has always been a communal one. We can evidence for this, not merely within our history books, but in other animals as well. Community is a sign of strength in animals, particularly mammals. You might be willing to crush an ant, but you would have to be mad to attack an army ant colony. You’d have no chance. Likewise, you would have to be insane to go and attack a pride of lions.

And over time, our community has become more complex, from tribe to village to city. Yet all of it is founded on the smallest level of civilization: the family. Without the family, without the love, and the will to sacrifice for their children and spouse, there is no family, and therefore no civilization.

This knowledge is not hidden, nor is Divine Revelation needed to see it. It has been with us the entire time. People may reject the idea of a transcendent God, but they cannot escape the omnipresent God. God is always present in our lives, when we submit ourselves to our families, when we place them above ourselves. It is only when we reject this love that we commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. “If a man says he loves God, but does not love his brother, he is a liar. For one cannot love God whom they have not seen, and not love their brother, whom they have seen.”

This is why the Church says that even people of other religions and beliefs can be saved, even when they have not heard of Christ, because God has given them natural hearts, with his law inscribed on them.

What’s more, the Church (and therefore God), does not say that we must go on faith alone. We must have faith that what the Church teaches is true, and then we can seek to understand it. But this is not subject just to the Church and religion. Whenever you want to learn and understand anything, you must first have faith that what you’re studying is real, and what you’re learning about it exists. How can I learn about atoms and particles if I don’t first belief that they exist? Everything operates on faith, for it is with faith that we come to know anything, and everything.

Peace be with you,
Archistrage

 

[The_Exodus]

Is it more reasonable to say that God is PERFECTLY just and PERFECTLY merciful? Infinite mercy implies that everyone is already forgiven…

God’s mercy, if considered in its mode, is infinite, even if all are not saved. This is because, for a sinner (i.e. a person deserving eternal separation from God), it is infinitely merciful for God to turn him back to Himself by grace. That this happens uncountable times for almost every person that is saved is infinite mercy exponentiated, as it were.

Concerning the original post…

“Verily, thou art a God who hidest thyself.” Isaiah 45:15. The question is, why? What answer can there be, but sin? It is not God that is obscure. It is us, whose minds are darkened by sin and wounded with ignorance, who fail to acknowledge God’s creation.

Furthermore, there will not be any “good” people in hell. A person can only begin to be good, by being moved by God’s grace; so, although we cannot know infallibly who has grace and who doesn’t, we can know with confidence that all those who are on the pathway to being better in this life, are already under the influence of divine grace.

 

[tonyrey]

Is it more reasonable to say that God is PERFECTLY just and PERFECTLY merciful? Infinite mercy implies that everyone is already forgiven…

“Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us!” God is infinitely merciful and infinitely just. It is not merciful to forgive us if we do not forgive others. Infinite mercy does not consist in tolerating evil but in condemning it. In fact it would be evil to forgive those who refuse to forgive others…
.

 

[archistrage]

God is both infinite and perfect. These words are not synonyms that can be used in place of each other. They are two separate aspects of God.

God is perfectly just, and infinitely merciful.

Being perfectly just means that his justice is not incomplete, nor corruptible.
Infinitely merciful means that he never stops having mercy. He never runs out of it.

And no, infinite mercy does not imply that our sins are already forgiven, just that he is always ready to forgive us if we choose to come back to him.

Peace be with you,
Archistrage

 

[mangy_dog]

This is just a question. This question does not express my own point of view; and I do in fact have my own answers to this question. I just want to see it debated. This problem is the cousin of the problem of evil.

Problem: God has high demands and presents the threat of hell, and never the less expects us to take allot of it on faith. Not all can understand the arguments for Gods existence and many are slaves to arguments that appear to undermine Christian faith. We would not expect people to accept the divine commands of other religions on mere faith; and thus neither should we expect reasonable people to follow or dedicate their lives to divine laws that are not true in the Absence of Gods existence.

Question: In light of this, why does God permit ignorance and leaves so much to faith when God knows that our souls are in so much danger? Surely the answer is either that God doesn’t care, in which case this God is not Christian; or God doesn’t exist, in which case there is no hell or moral law to fret about.

God bless and peace be with you.

The numbers of people in the world that live as if there were no God, no moral law, no hell and no consequence to our actions increases exponentially as the years go by.

Add to this the enthusiastic push by atheists, agnostics and the usual gang of idiots with their agenda of “eat, drink and be merry for there is no God”.

Can we really be of the thought that God is at fault for our lack of conscience and selfishness and obtusiveness? And, if we say “God” are we limiting ourselves to what even the pagans accept as a “Superior Being”?..or do we define our christian doctrine in terms of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.?

Why do we have to play by the secular rule book? Because it evens the playing field for the seculars and atheists and agnostics and pagans and satanists etc.

We don’t have to take that bait.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

The numbers of people in the world that live as if there were no God, no moral law, no hell and no consequence to our actions increases exponentially as the years go by.

Add to this the enthusiastic push by atheists, agnostics and the usual gang of idiots with their agenda of “eat, drink and be merry for there is no God”.

Can we really be of the thought that God is at fault for our lack of conscience and selfishness and obtusiveness? And, if we say “God” are we limiting ourselves to what even the pagans accept as a “Superior Being”?..or do we define our christian doctrine in terms of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.?

Why do we have to play by the secular rule book? Because it evens the playing field for the seculars and atheists and agnostics and pagans and satanists etc.

We don’t have to take that bait.

I’m sorry…did you read the argument? I think that you might have the wrong thread. Shouldn’t you be posting this in the “Reasons why i don’t like atheists” thread?

 

[rcwhiteh]

God is both infinite and perfect. These words are not synonyms that can be used in place of each other. They are two separate aspects of God.

Agreed.

God is perfectly just, and infinitely merciful.

Being perfectly just means that his justice is not incomplete, nor corruptible.
Infinitely merciful means that he never stops having mercy. He never runs out of it.

And no, infinite mercy does not imply that our sins are already forgiven, just that he is always ready to forgive us if we choose to come back to him.

Here I take issue. Infinite mercy implies that God can forgive anything, yet we know from Scripture that there is such a thing as unforgivable sin. The two concepts are exclusive.

Perfect mercy, on the other hand, forgives all forgivable sins, and encourages you not to sin in the future. It does not forgive sin you haven’t yet committed, even though God knows with certainty whether you will sin again; hence the need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Similarly, the perfection of God’s justice would indicate that He gives you what you deserve - nothing more, nothing less. If you turn away from Him, you do not enter into His presence after this life is over. This is not excessive; this is exactly what you asked for.

God is just, and His justice is perfect, because it fits the sin or virtue without being excessive or lacking.

 

[MikiBee]

Agreed.

Here I take issue. Infinite mercy implies that God can forgive anything, yet we know from Scripture that there is such a thing as unforgivable sin. The two concepts are exclusive.

Perfect mercy, on the other hand, forgives all forgivable sins, and encourages you not to sin in the future. It does not forgive sin you haven’t yet committed, even though God knows with certainty whether you will sin again; hence the need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Similarly, the perfection of God’s justice would indicate that He gives you what you deserve - nothing more, nothing less. If you turn away from Him, you do not enter into His presence after this life is over. This is not excessive; this is exactly what you asked for.

God is just, and His justice is perfect, because it fits the sin or virtue without being excessive or lacking.

God’s infinite mercy is Catholic Dogma. theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm

 

[Ichthys4121517]

I believe the flaw with this argument is that it implies that we humans are entitled to paradise by default. That’s foolish. No creature that is stained with even ONE sin deserves heaven, because heaven is communion with God, who is perfect. Think about it this way: A man of great social status and who is well-respected owns a house that is as majestic as the Taj Mahal, the Parthenon, the Temple of Jerusalem, and the White House put together. It is absolutely spotless as a result of weeks’ worth of thorough cleaning. Now, another man enters the house, uninvited, and drenched in dirt, bile, and blood. What sane person would let that man in? That’s how God probably sees our sin-stained souls. Hence, the requirement of Jesus’ saving grace, reconciliation, and purgatory.

And if you say, “Well, why didn’t God just keep us from sinning by making us perfect?” Well, technically, God did make humanity perfect at first. But He also gave us the gift of free will. Think about it; who’s more deserving of heaven - a man who does God’s will simply because he is made to do so automatically, like a robot, or a man who does God’s will because he loves God, and he has the humility to confess his sins if it means being reconciled with God?

Of course, while free will is a gift, we know that gifts can be misused, badly. In spite of our rebellious nature, however, God is merciful enough to offer us the chance to cleanse ourselves from that dirt, bile, and blood that is sin. Is it God’s fault if the truth is perverted over centuries? Absolutely not. So we should not blame God for the fact that going to heaven is difficult. We only have ourselves to blame.

I hope this helps.

 

[MikiBee]

I can understand why someone would ask those questions. I even wonder myself… if God has always been, and has always known every sin of every human that has and will ever exist, then God knows before a person is even born whether that person will make it to heaven or go to hell. That is very hard for me to reconcile. God gave us free will so that we could choose Him above sin, but the fact that we are born into sin puts us at a disadvantage immediately. It makes God seem selfish that He would create a being, knowing that person’s ultimate fate is hell. God seems selfish for putting us through the “test of life” because He wants us to choose him. Think of Job… how God afflicted that man with so much pain and sorrow just to show Satan that Job will choose him even through the suffering. God knew that Job would triumph (because God knows everything), but had to prove something to Satan at Job’s expense. That to me is incredibly sad.

Just HOW do you explain that away to someone who has little or no faith to begin with? It’s easy to say to someone with an abundance of faith, “God works in mysterious ways.” That is good enough for some, but is clearly not enough for others.

I would certainly hope that God is infinitely merciful (meaning always was and always will be merciful)-- because He is the one that created us… faults and all. He knew our sins before we existed, but created us anyway. If I made a doll and knew that its arm would fall off within a few weeks, I certainly wouldn’t be mad at the doll-----because I’m the one who made it that way.

 

[Ichthys4121517]

I can understand why someone would ask those questions. I even wonder myself… if God has always been, and has always known every sin of every human that has and will ever exist, then God knows before a person is even born whether that person will make it to heaven or go to hell. That is very hard for me to reconcile. God gave us free will so that we could choose Him above sin, but the fact that we are born into sin puts us at a disadvantage immediately. It makes God seem selfish that He would create a being, knowing that person’s ultimate fate is hell. God seems selfish for putting us through the “test of life” because He wants us to choose him. Think of Job… how God afflicted that man with so much pain and sorrow just to show Satan that Job will choose him even through the suffering. God knew that Job would triumph (because God knows everything), but had to prove something to Satan at Job’s expense. That to me is incredibly sad.

Just HOW do you explain that away to someone who has little or no faith to begin with? It’s easy to say to someone with an abundance of faith, “God works in mysterious ways.” That is good enough for some, but is clearly not enough for others.

I would certainly hope that God is infinitely merciful (meaning always was and always will be merciful)-- because He is the one that created us… faults and all. He knew our sins before we existed, but created us anyway. If I made a doll and knew that its arm would fall off within a few weeks, I certainly wouldn’t be mad at the doll-----because I’m the one who made it that way.

I understand your opinion, but you have to realize that, if God had just made everyone destined to go to heaven, that wouldn’t be very just to the people who would choose to follow God of their own volition. If you and several other people had to take a difficult test, and you studied for hours so that you would pass, how do you think you would feel if the person who organized the test just decided, “You know what? This test is a little harsh. I certainly wouldn’t want to take it. I’ll just give everyone a 100 and be done with it.” That’s ridiculous. Not only did God make us all take “the test”, He also took it Himself. And He’s the only one who got a 100 on it. Thanks to that one “perfect score”, we all get the chance to “pass”, despite our many sins. That seems more fair than just patronizing us by not trusting us to “pass”. I don’t know about you, but I would feel insulted if I were created automatically faithful and perfect just because my creator didn’t have enough faith in me. As I said before, it is our choice of God that shows our love for Him more than just mindless obedience. True love takes effort.

As for those who reject God, well, quite frankly, they get what’s coming to them. God has given us everything we need to believe in Him, not just through direct revelation, but also common sense. Atheists are without excuse. That might not sound very politically correct,
but since when has Christianity ever been such a thing by our standards? Jesus was quite the controversial man in His time. It stands to reason that the truth would be just as shocking today, as Jesus said it would be.