The Problem of Miracles

[Pieman333272]

The Bible says otherwise. Satan can perform miracles. See Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

AND

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Please do not assume anything, but go to God’s Word. It is the only sure thing we have.

For Fatima, it is almost certainly not a miracle of Satan. First of all, it contributed to a greater good - even if the Catholic Church is a false church (which, leads to hell), it still aided in the prediction of a war and possibly the stopping of another, and converted many from non-belief to a life of Christ. As we can assume, both a priori and from scripture, that all demons, which includes Satan, are omnimalevolent and therefore would not want to alert people of a war, possibly stop another or lead some to a life of Christ, then they would not reveal themselves as Mary, not preform the Miracle of the Sun, and not give away the secrets. This probably leaves it to either not being real or being the work of God himself.

Just some defense of the miracle .

 

[Marc_Anthony]

For Fatima, it is almost certainly not a miracle of Satan. First of all, it contributed to a greater good - even if the Catholic Church is a false church (which, leads to hell), it still aided in the prediction of a war and possibly the stopping of another, and converted many from non-belief to a life of Christ. As we can assume, both a priori and from scripture, that all demons, which includes Satan, are omnimalevolent and therefore would not want to alert people of a war, possibly stop another or lead some to a life of Christ, then they would not reveal themselves as Mary, not preform the Miracle of the Sun, and not give away the secrets. This probably leaves it to either not being real or being the work of God himself.

Just some defense of the miracle .

1. PPOSsIBLY the stopping of another is a fallacy of the predetermined outcome. Te prediction is irrelevant.
2. Leading people to a life of Christ is only helpful if Christinaity’s true. If Islam is true, then the devil did a great job.
3. The devil can disguise himself as a benevolent being; Mary would make sense.

The secrets? Well, they may or may not have been true.

Obviously I’m arguing from a skeptic’s position. I happen to believe in the Fatima miracle. But the problem I see here is that we have no way to figure out what’s true and what’s not in the spiritual world.

 

[StrawberryJam]

1. PPOSsIBLY the stopping of another is a fallacy of the predetermined outcome. Te prediction is irrelevant.
2. Leading people to a life of Christ is only helpful if Christinaity’s true. If Islam is true, then the devil did a great job.
3. The devil can disguise himself as a benevolent being; Mary would make sense.

The secrets? Well, they may or may not have been true.

Obviously I’m arguing from a skeptic’s position. I happen to believe in the Fatima miracle. But the problem I see here is that we have no way to figure out what’s true and what’s not in the spiritual world.

How can we figure out what is true or not regarding the supernatural?
How did you do it?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

How can we figure out what is true or not regarding the supernatural?
How did you do it?

1. I don’t know. I’m asking, I guess.
2. I didn’t do it. Before somebody asks, yes, this just occurred to me relatively recently. I don’t know how to discern what is or isn’t true.

I am a believer, absolutely, but sometimes I feel more like an agnostic.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

But the problem I see here is that we have no way to figure out what’s true and what’s not in the spiritual world.

But isn’t this similar to saying that we have no way to figure or what’s good or evil in the real world? Your problem seems to be that you cannot “naturalize” spiritual realities into comprehensible realities whose *sources *can be discerned. But all the same epistemological problems about naturalizing reassert themselves when we look at the moral world.

Perhaps the best answer is that we have no sure test when it comes to spiritual realities; we ought to inform our beliefs as best possible, but we could be wrong. This is also true in the moral sphere, unless we reduce morality to happiness or some such thing.

The Bible does give us copious advice about testing the spirits, however, so we’re not altogether without guidance.

 

[vz71]

How can we figure out what is true or not regarding the supernatural?
How did you do it?

1. I don’t know. I’m asking, I guess.
2. I didn’t do it. Before somebody asks, yes, this just occurred to me relatively recently. I don’t know how to discern what is or isn’t true.

But isn’t this similar to saying that we have no way to figure or what’s good or evil in the real world? Your problem seems to be that you cannot “naturalize” spiritual realities into comprehensible realities whose *sources *can be discerned. But all the same epistemological problems about naturalizing reassert themselves when we look at the moral world.

Perhaps the best answer is that we have no sure test when it comes to spiritual realities; we ought to inform our beliefs as best possible, but we could be wrong.

Is there some problem with simply referencing what the church has to say on the matter?

God did put his church here for a reason. I would imagine leading us to him is one of them. And I would further assert that part of this leadership is discerning for us the good or evil in some unexplained event.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Is there some problem with simply referencing what the church has to say on the matter?

God did put his church here for a reason. I would imagine leading us to him is one of them. And I would further assert that part of this leadership is discerning for us the good or evil in some unexplained event.

Then why would Jesus say, “By their fruits **you **will know the false prophets”? Does this teaching only apply to the Church? Is the role of individual believers to suspend belief in any and every miracle until the Church authoritatively declares upon it?

I agree that the Church may help us discern, and that we ought to abide by the Church’s discernment. But, if the Church has discerned correctly, then this discernment will stand up to any amount of scrutiny. From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Thomas Aquinas:

In philosophy, [Aquinas] says, arguments from authority are of secondary importance; philosophy does not consist in knowing what men have said, but in knowing the truth (In I lib. de Coelo, lect. xxii; II Sent., D. xiv, a. 2, ad 1um). He assigns its proper place to reason used in theology (see below: Influence of St. Thomas), but he keeps it within its own sphere. Against the Traditionalists the Holy See has declared that the method used by St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure does not lead to Rationalism (Denzinger-Bannwart, n. 1652).

 

[po18guy]

The Bible says otherwise. Satan can perform miracles. See Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

AND

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Please do not assume anything, but go to God’s Word. It is the only sure thing we have.

Speaking only for yourself, who raised the doubts in the first place! Why do you doubt? What is your fear? We are clearly told by the bible to test the spirits. The bible does not say to test the spirits against scripture - such cannot be done. Testing must be done by intelligence, and the words printed in the bible represent intelligence, but they are not intelligence. The Church has been testing the spirits since day 1. What is your worry or fear?