The Problem of Miracles.

[New_Year_SMS]

Something just occurred me that I thought I should mention.

When Christians are asked about the Muslim faith, I generally hear two answers from them:

1. Muhammed made up the religion to gain power.
2. The devil came down disguised as the angel Gabriel and taught Muhammed Islam.

Whever I ask Protestants about the Fatima apparitions and miracles, the answer I generally get is that they were false apparitions planted by the devil.

Do you see the problem here yet? I’ll explain.

If we accept that the devil can indeed disguise himself as an angel, and that the devil can in fact influence the physical world (excorcisms are proof of this) how then do we have any proof that any miracles are really true?

For example, how do we know that it was the devil, and not the angel Gabriel, that appeared to Muhammed? And how do we know that it was the angel Gabriel, and not the devl, that appearedto Mary and Joseph in dreams?

How do we know that the miracles supposedly formed by Jesus were not performed by demons, if we accept that demons have the power to fool us. In the case of Fatima, how can we be sure that it was indeed Mary, nd not a devil disguised as Mary, that appeared to the shepherd children?

.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Good question. What convinces me that Catholic miracles are the most genuine of all reported miracles is that the Church places an incredible amount of study and analysis into determining what constitutes a genuine Marian apparition or a saint from a miracle. Many cases are known to take at least a 100 years before being confirmed “worthy of belief” or in the case of declaring one a saint, a genuine miracle. Contrary to popular belief, the Church discards most so-called miracles to the ash heap of history, either because they can be explained by a natural phenomenon, or they conflict Sacred Scripture. As a Christian, I believe that Protestants also have their share of miracles. However, what distinguishes a Catholic miracle from a Protestant miracle is that one can know with a high degree of certainty that the Catholic miracle/apparition was genuine. No one places a 100+ years into studying a miracle if there wasn’t something more to it.

On that note, I’ve seen the so-called miracles advanced by Muslims. I really do not believe it at all. What Muslims mean by a “miracle” when they debate on this issue are references to scientific facts in the Quran. However, that is not a miracle; we already know that the Arabs were very advanced scientists. A miracle is an event or action that goes above and beyond the laws of science and nature. From the numerous amount of things I’ve read, only Catholic miracles can live up to that title with a bold face.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[pablope]

Something just occurred me that I thought I should mention.

Whever I ask Protestants about the Fatima apparitions and miracles, the answer I generally get is that they were false apparitions planted by the devil.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

The Bible talks extensively on the topic, It seems that the general answer is you shall know them by their fruits.

Matt 7

15
9 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20
So by their fruits you will know them.
21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’

 

[allyl]

As a Catholic who used to live in a Hindu country and was then brought up in an Islamic country, I do not think it is right to go around dismissing other religions and their miracles. Okay, you don’t pray to their God, you don’t worship him, good. But please be tolerant of other religions and accept that they too have their truths as we have ours. It is exactly this sort of self-righteousness that causes problems in society today.
Thank you and may peace be with you!

 

[lampstand]

I wonder why the Muslims would believe it when Gabriel is supposed to have said things contradictory to the contents of the precedent Jewish and Christian Scriptures. It’s not too hard to figure out why, though-- while they claim to accept the Torah and the Gospels, they believe that the ‘original’ versions were identical to the teachings of the Koran, and that Jews and Christians altered these, and covered it up.

I guess they have to make up something in order to explain the implications created when the Koran came long not only hundreds of years after the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, but (at the same time) hundreds of years after the lives of the people it claims to chronicle. Think about it: the Koran claims that Abraham, to name just one person, said and did things he did not say or do in the Old Testament, but at the time of the writing of the Koran, Abraham had already long since lived. And yet no other historian happened to come up with accounts that reflect the Koran’s claims, until, er, many centuries after Abraham. In other words, nothing ‘looks like’ the Koran until the Koran was written.

Did Abraham build a giant time machine and go back and live his life over again? Did every Jew and Christian who read the OT many years later, walk around saying, “Shhh, don’t tell anyone, we’ve got to cover it up so nobody knows about this Koran thing?”

That requires a pretty big conspiracy. Every other writer of Scripture, every other book in the Bible, must have been covering up, if Abraham said what he said in the Koran but didn’t say what he said in the Old Testament.

You can multiply this for every other person who features in the Koran. Read the Bible, and read the Koran- they don’t match.

It’s a little too much of a conspiracy for me. You can’t always get five or six people to remember where they’re supposed to meet for lunch, let alone millions upon millions of people to spontaneously forget or cover up some super-secret claim about their religion.

Islam is asking us to accept the equivalent of a bad science fiction movie.

 

[Big_Dummy]

John 10
19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication** at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Acts 2:22
“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 19:11
God did extraordinary miracles through Paul,

2 Corinthians 12:12
I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

It really boils down to, whom do the miracles testifly about, God, Jesus, Mary or Muhammad. Those who do not believe in the Virgin Mary, nor in Muhammad see their works, visions or whatever as either faked or work of demons. Those who believes in Mary see visions or whatever testiflying about her as genuine. Personally, I only see miracles directly testiflying about Jesus alone as genuine.

In the mind science cults like Religious Science or Christian Scinence there are healings. Knowing that their gnostic theology is false, I think demons torment these poor people and when they follow their healing scheme, methods those demons back off for the purpose of giving creadibliity to that gnostic cult.

So, we know that Jesus is true, therefore miracles that testifly about him alone are true because God is a jealous God and tells us not to put anyone or anything on par with him.**

 

[NotWorthy]

Something just occurred me that I thought I should mention.

When Christians are asked about the Muslim faith, I generally hear two answers from them:

1. Muhammed made up the religion to gain power.
2. The devil came down disguised as the angel Gabriel and taught Muhammed Islam.

Whever I ask Protestants about the Fatima apparitions and miracles, the answer I generally get is that they were false apparitions planted by the devil.

Do you see the problem here yet? I’ll explain.

If we accept that the devil can indeed disguise himself as an angel, and that the devil can in fact influence the physical world (excorcisms are proof of this) how then do we have any proof that any miracles are really true?

For example, how do we know that it was the devil, and not the angel Gabriel, that appeared to Muhammed? And how do we know that it was the angel Gabriel, and not the devl, that appearedto Mary and Joseph in dreams?

How do we know that the miracles supposedly formed by Jesus were not performed by demons, if we accept that demons have the power to fool us. In the case of Fatima, how can we be sure that it was indeed Mary, nd not a devil disguised as Mary, that appeared to the shepherd children?

.

You ignore two things:

1: How do we know that ANYTHING appeared to Muhammed. I mean, nobody else saw the apparitions even though they were present with Muhammed.

1. The apparitions of Fatima draw people closer to God - encouraging us to pray, to help our brothers, to take care of the poor. Consequently, the “apparitions” to Muhammed did no such thing. They encouraged death to anyone who disagrees.

 

[donsnow]

Hi, New Year SMS,

My answers will follow the part of your text with the question.

Something just occurred me that I thought I should mention.

When Christians are asked about the Muslim faith, I generally hear two answers from them:

1. Muhammed made up the religion to gain power.
2. The devil came down disguised as the angel Gabriel and taught Muhammed Islam.

Whever I ask Protestants about the Fatima apparitions and miracles, the answer I generally get is that they were false apparitions planted by the devil.

Do you see the problem here yet? I’ll explain.

Yes, I see your problem.
Let me show you why: As for myself, I was baptized by immersion in the Southern Baptist Church in 1954 at Fort Worth, Texas and converted to the Holy Roman Catholic Church, with my Confirmation Mass in 1968 at Tustin, California. So, I have asked myself many hard questions, before, during and after my conversion. Let me share some of the answers I found, with you.

If we accept that the devil can indeed disguise himself as an angel, and that the devil can in fact influence the physical world (excorcisms are proof of this) how then do we have any proof that any miracles are really true?

I think that the post # 2 by Bohm Bawerk answers this.

For example, how do we know that it was the devil, and not the angel Gabriel, that appeared to Muhammed? And how do we know that it was the angel Gabriel, and not the devl, that appearedto Mary and Joseph in dreams?

To the first part of this question, we only have Muhammed’s and his scribes’ word for this.
To the second part of this question, we first have Mary’s and Joseph’s words for this. Second, we have the virgin birth of Jesus by Mary. Third, we have all the miracles which Jesus worked, to validate what Gabriel said to Mary, then to Joseph, and later to the three sages who came to worship the infant. Of course, we have the words of those three sages as to the angel speaking to them.
Finally, we have the Divine and Church assurance that it’s the Holy Spirit who inspires the truth of these scriptures to us.

To the whole of your question, how do we know if it were the devil, first Gabriel would not lie; consequently the angel Gabriel would have spoke the same truth to Mary, Joseph and Muhammed.
But, does the Koran record that Gabriel’s message to Joseph and Mary is the same as his message to Muhammed? I understand, it does not. Therefore, is either angel Gabriel? Yes, the angel that spoke to Mary and Joseph, his words were justified by the events in Jesus’ life: the baptism, the miracles, the trial with Pilate, the Crucifixion and death and burial of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. All of that confirms that it was the angel Gabriel who spoke to Mary and Joseph.
With this confirmation of Gabriel’s true identity in regards to Mary and Joseph, then what was it which revealed itself to Muhammed?
Did Muhammed work miracles? Was he slain and buried and arose from the dead? Did Muhammed ever raise anyone from the dead? These are the things that Jesus’ accomplished, and he accomplished many more kinds of miracles, including raising the dead, while he was alive.
With that in mind, we must proclaim Jesus a greater prophet, full of grace and truth, than Muhammed was.

How do we know that the miracles supposedly formed by Jesus were not performed by demons, if we accept that demons have the power to fool us.

Well, that’s an old question. I am quoting from the Challoner version of the Douay - Rheims Holy Bible.
Matthew 9, 34 “But the pharisees said, ‘By the prince of devils he casteth out devils.’”

Jesus addresses this in Matthew 12, 24 - 28 24)“But the Pharisees hearing it said: This man casteth not out devils but by Beelzebub the prince of devils.
25) And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.
26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand?
27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore, they shall be your judges.”

(Jesus had earlier sent his disciples out to minister in his power and they had cast out devils and raised the dead in his name and power, as recorded in.Matthew chapter 10.)

“28) But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.”

In the case of Fatima, how can we be sure that it was indeed Mary, nd not a devil disguised as Mary, that appeared to the shepherd children?.

Because historical events since then have justified the appearance as genuinely by the Holy Mother of God, Mary herself.

I will not label Islam as a religion. Because Muslims themselves label it, by allowing the other extreme and militant Muslims to lie and kill in the name of Islam.

God loves you,
Don