The problem of Natural Evil and Suffering

[Marc_Anthony]

Salve,

How would you explain the problem of suffering in the world caused by natural evil?

I don’t want to call this the problem of evil because I think of that as, “Why does God create and let people do bad things?”. This is the problm of, “Why Hurricane Katrina? Why do people die in fires? Why get struck by lightning?”

I ask because I’ve seen a couple of atheists on this forum mention this as the reason they became atheists.

Any thoughts?

 

[Redratfish]

Salve,

How would you explain the problem of suffering in the world caused by natural evil?

I don’t want to call this the problem of evil because I think of that as, “Why does God create and let people do bad things?”. This is the problm of, “Why Hurricane Katrina? Why do people die in fires? Why get struck by lightning?”

I ask because I’ve seen a couple of atheists on this forum mention this as the reason they became atheists.

Any thoughts?

I know what your talking about, and I too am interested

 

[DavidKays]

Hi Marc Anthony! Just wondering why do people not use their own names on Catholic Answers. I seem to be talking to alot of famous people from the past. Your question is very excellent one. Why does a good God allow evil and suffering? The answer will suprise you. God must work with what He got. That is us men and women. He doesn’t force His will upon us for Love cannot do this. Love does not insist on its own way says St.Paul. That is why God is ever so Patient with us. The Patience of God is alarming to us. We can’t wait to get things done but God is ever so Patient with us. The problem with evil and suffering is why does a good God allow it or even permit it. The answer is this. To derive a greater good! God does not flick His fingers or snap them to start the human race again. No. He must work with our free will and try to help mankind to see the consequences of their own mistakes so that He can bring good out of it. The Paradox of this evil and suffering is God’s intervention of His Mercy and His Patience and His Concern. He has an investment in us for He created us to be like Him. However Man does not start like the Holy Angels but Man starts rather much lower. Had God created us like the Angels we will not have to go through the history that we have gone through. But God gave Man a small limited knowledge of Himself to start Mankind. Throughout history God will reveal more of Himself and eventually through the revelation of His Son this knowledge is completed to its fullness and the process of redemption begins by the Sacriface of His Son. In His Son we see the full revelation of why God allows evil and suffering. The greatest evil we could have done was to kill God, to kill Jesus. Yet in this terrible evil act was the accomplishment of the greatest good. The death of Jesus was in fact the turning point of Mankind. The greatest evil resulted into the greatest good. The Redemption of Mankind. This is why God allows evil. To derive a greater good. Look to the East when the Communists took over a prodimantly Orthodox Christian country. It looked like the end for the Orthodox Church there. Yet through their sufferings the Church emerged stronger than ever. The Church has amassed over 150 million believers. Holy Russia is back again and leading the way. Look to the Book of Job to see this as well. Did Job deserve this? No! Yet the story illustrates how evil and suffering can bring the best out of us. Even our own century can be seen as like Job. We indeed have suffered tremondously but these sufferings have given birth to great and courageous men and you will see soon a better world for God’s ways which seem so slow to us are always for our betterment. That God can use evil and suffering to bring this about is astonishing to say the least. He is incredible that He can do this. God is always working to save us despite resistence to Him by evil men and the sufferings they impose on other people. Remember St.Peter’s words when he said if you are suffering for your own mistakes there is no blessing but if you suffer in the same manner as Jesus then blessed are you. God will bring good out of evil as long as the one enduring it endures it similar to what His Son went through. I hope this has helped. God Bless!

 

[DavidKays]

The question why some people die is the same as His own Son who was sacrificed for us. In similar manner these people can also be considered to be " sacrificed " to bring God’s accomplishment of Redemption to the world. The Sacrifice of His Son has initiated this. But in reality it is incomplete without us. Our sufferings no matter where they are help make up what is lacking. God willed this so that we can share into His Glory. If God cleaned up every mess and prevented it or stop every evil act we will never grow. How can we grow to be like Him if He constantly intervenes to stop evil on His own. No we can never grow because we will have a Parent who will do everything for us. But to share in His Sufferings is to share into His Glory. He wills that you and I will share in that Glory. Sure He can fixed things up without us. Sure He is the Almighty and He can prevent all this. But what will that do for us? No He will not do this for He desires our growth and completion so that we can be more like His Son. We must resemble His Son if we truly want to be like Him. God designed the Human Race so that each person has the capacity to be like His Son. But you see God knew of the risk He must endure when He created us. The consequences of creating the human race will be the endurance of suffering to aid Mankind to reach its highest goal, participation into the Life of the Trinity for Eternity. If the Almighty could have chosen a better way He would have done so. The only way is the way we see today. God Bless!

 

[AntiTheist]

I ask because I’ve seen a couple of atheists on this forum mention this as the reason they became atheists.

Just for the record, I think that that is an awfully silly reason to not accept the claim that god exists.

For the most part, people who become atheists on such a silly basis are overly-emotional hysterics who will probably one day revert back to being religious because their disbelief is grounded in such poor reasoning.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Thanks for both of your responses, DavidKays and AntiTheist. I’ll respond to DavidKays first.

Here’s a simple form of the full argument: I understand how God can bring good from evil, since it makes sense, and how He did so with Jesus, but here’s the question: how doessuffering bring good? It’s completely subjective…nobody but the people suffering are affected by the suffering.

Take, for example, the person who burns to death in a fire. By all accounts this is a horribly, horribly painful way to die. Now, perhaps the death was necessary to bring out a greater good-for example, perhaps if such a person didn’t die, they would have mortally sinned and went to Hell. But why the suffering? How does that accomplish anything?

AntiTheist-It doesn’t seem very intellectual to become an atheist on these grounds perhaps, but on the other hand it is a legitimate philosophical problem that the faithful should be able to answer.

 

[tonyrey]

How would you explain the problem of suffering in the world caused by natural evil?

The famous sceptic David Hume pointed out that natural evil has natural causes and that events occur according to the laws of nature rather than “particular volitions of the Deity”. Christians believe miracles occur but not continuously. It follows that God does not, as Calvin thought, will every drop of rain. Many events like accidents and disasters are due to unfortunate coincidences. That is why there is so much suffering which is pointless, valueless and meaningless - like that of the person burnt to death in a fire. Atheists attribute everything to Chance. Theists like Calvin attribute everything to Design. The truth lies between these extremes. There is an element of Chance within the framework of Design.

 

[DavidKays]

Thanks for both of your responses, DavidKays and AntiTheist. I’ll respond to DavidKays first.

Here’s a simple form of the full argument: I understand how God can bring good from evil, since it makes sense, and how He did so with Jesus, but here’s the question: how doessuffering bring good? It’s completely subjective…nobody but the people suffering are affected by the suffering.

Take, for example, the person who burns to death in a fire. By all accounts this is a horribly, horribly painful way to die. Now, perhaps the death was necessary to bring out a greater good-for example, perhaps if such a person didn’t die, they would have mortally sinned and went to Hell. But why the suffering? How does that accomplish anything?

AntiTheist-It doesn’t seem very intellectual to become an atheist on these grounds perhaps, but on the other hand it is a legitimate philosophical problem that the faithful should be able to answer.

Not necessarily. People who are suffering not only effects them. When Jesus was in the Garden to experience the weight of all the sins ever done can you imagine His experience. The weight of these sins were ernormous indeed yet it must take a God to take upon Himself every sin committed so that He can help them. This God is Jesus. He is involve in every suffering imanginable. When you suffer, He suffers. When you sin, He knows the pain of it. He has taken upon Himself every pain, suffering and this is His Agony. Can any of us say this of ourselves? When someone dies in an accident, God is there. When someone is burning in a fire, God is there. Wherever there is injustice and where there is suffering, God is there. He does not exclude Himself. We may but not God. Look to Him to find the answer. If my daughter is killed in an accident, I will know God was there with her. I may not be, I wish I was, but God has undertaken that responsibilty. I guess only God knows the good that you are asking or searching for in these sufferings. There may be a million questions but the answer that makes sense is Jesus. He is the Answer. All others will never satisfy because they cannot. Only Jesus can satisfy our Thirst, our Hunger, our Longing, our Answer, our Question. Why people suffer they way they do is a mystery. This mystery cannot be answered the way the world searches for it. We must look to the Eternal because it is there where everything comes together and has meaning because in the End God is the answer to everything. It is not words we are looking for. It is not arguements that needs to be put forth. It is not understandings either. It is a Person. It is the Lord Jesus where all other questions be they from us or the unlearned or even athiests must be addressed to. We are all weak in trying to find answers through words or proofs that will help explain much more. The real proof is the One who knows it all and has been through it alI. I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I really do not know in words to answer another. I know though within myself someone who can. He is the Eternal and He can answer us. Let us try to listen to Him. I am sure God does not desires these types of deaths. He does not will them. This is the risk He took by creating a world as we have now. He knew these types of sufferings will come yet He is willing to create the world anyway. It must sadden Him that some of us suffer and die in this way. Yet He allows it so that the world He created will go on. This is the price He took to create this world knowing that some will die and suffer in the manner you listed in the last post. He suffers with them. In fact God is suffering even now until the End of Time. God Bless!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Er, I don’t want to sound rude, but when you respond may you please break your response into pragraphs? It makes it easier to read. Thanks.

Not necessarily. People who are suffering not only effects them. When Jesus was in the Garden to experience the weight of all the sins ever done can you imagine His experience. The weight of these sins were ernormous indeed yet it must take a God to take upon Himself every sin committed so that He can help them. This God is Jesus. He is involve in every suffering imanginable. When you suffer, He suffers. When you sin, He knows the pain of it. He has taken upon Himself every pain, suffering and this is His Agony. Can any of us say this of ourselves? When someone dies in an accident, God is there. When someone is burning in a fire, God is there. Wherever there is injustice and where there is suffering, God is there. He does not exclude Himself.

All right, but why is this necessary? Why doesn’t God stop people from dying in a fire, say? Sure the death may bring about a greater good but the horrible suffering of the person in the fire does nothing but cause Jesus to suffer too.

We may but not God. Look to Him to find the answer. If my daughter is killed in an accident, I will know God was there with her. I may not be, I wish I was, but God has undertaken that responsibilty. I guess only God knows the good that you are asking or searching for in these sufferings. There may be a million questions but the answer that makes sense is Jesus. He is the Answer. All others will never satisfy because they cannot. Only Jesus can satisfy our Thirst, our Hunger, our Longing, our Answer, our Question. Why people suffer they way they do is a mystery. This mystery cannot be answered the way the world searches for it. We must look to the Eternal because it is there where everything comes together and has meaning because in the End God is the answer to everything. It is not words we are looking for. It is not arguements that needs to be put forth. It is not understandings either. It is a Person. It is the Lord Jesus where all other questions be they from us or the unlearned or even athiests must be addressed to.

You’re basically saying that only God understands why people suffer. This may be true, but on the other hand, the Bible doesn’t say we can’t ask. So I’m asking and wondering.

We are all weak in trying to find answers through words or proofs that will help explain much more. The real proof is the One who knows it all and has been through it alI. I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I really do not know in words to answer another. I know though within myself someone who can. He is the Eternal and He can answer us. Let us try to listen to Him. I am sure God does not desires these types of deaths. He does not will them. This is the risk He took by creating a world as we have now. He knew these types of sufferings will come yet He is willing to create the world anyway. It must sadden Him that some of us suffer and die in this way. Yet He allows it so that the world He created will go on. This is the price He took to create this world knowing that some will die and suffer in the manner you listed in the last post. He suffers with them. In fact God is suffering even now until the End of Time. God Bless!

It is true that Jesus is suffering with us and yet, he is omnipotent; can’t he stop this suffering?

 

[Nan_S]

A thought: If there was no such thing as natural disaster, with its devistating effects, do you think we could imagine what Hell could be like? We’d spend our lives sitting on our soft fat fannies in a Garden of Eden world, licking the juices of the tree of knowledge off our fingers and believing we had no need for God.

Most of the time, people who live in the developed world experience the effects of natural disasters because we are complacent risk-takers who stand in harm’s way, certain that nothing bad will happen. Hurricane evacuation underway? Invite the neighbors over for a hurricane party. There’s nothing wrong with driving into heavy fogbanks if you’ve got a schedule to meet. And why in the world would anyone think building a house on the slopes of an active volcano could possibly cause problems?

Sometimes we come face-to-face with natural disasters because we took stupid risks, and sometimes it’s because we got caught up in the in situations when other people or government officials took stupid risks.

It’s a little harder to understand why devistating disasters happen to ignorant or helpless people in undeveloped countries. The earthquake in Haiti seems like one such event. Yet when we take a closer look at the cause, we understand that the disaster was magnified geometrically by a corrupt government looting the resources of a country, and by other countries’ so-called charity dumping cheap goods into their economy and undercutting their local farms and businesses.

The outcome of the Haitian earthquake is that the mess created by those greedy and short-sighted governments is laid bare for everyone to see in a very dramatic way. Recognizing and acknowledging the problem is the first step in correcting it.

 

[DavidKays]

Er, I don’t want to sound rude, but when you respond may you please break your response into pragraphs? It makes it easier to read.

All right, but why is this necessary? Why doesn’t God stop people from dying in a fire, say? Sure the death may bring about a greater good but the horrible suffering of the person in the fire does nothing but cause Jesus to suffer too.

You’re basically saying that only God understands why people suffer. This may be true, but on the other hand, the Bible doesn’t say we can’t ask. So I’m asking and wondering.

It is true that Jesus is suffering with us and yet, he is omnipotent; can’t he stop this suffering?

I know. I’m no good on computers! To answer the first response is quite tricky. It is a mystery why God does not prevent people from dying let us say in a fire. God does not interfere into our affairs for some reason unless He seems it is very costly for us. I am referring to the asassination attempt on John Paul II. I really don’t know if there is a greater good in the list you mention. I believe though in some instances there may by. I really don’t know if natural disasters can be the same as unnatural disasters. There may be a difference. But when I say that Jesus is also suffering I know that person who is dying is now in the hands of Jesus and the Lord may uptee His Graces for such a person so they may have the opportunity to receive them ahead of time so as to enter heaven. No we can ask WHY? Job did continously. At the end he really did not get a satisfactory answer. But he himself was closer now to God and his prayer had power over God. It is good that you are asking. These are important questions. We may never receive a satisfactory answer. Like Job we may see God Himself. This revelation or theophany will probably be the answer in the long run but we can for now question God and this I believe is very pleasing to Him. Yes He can stop suffering. But for some " good " reason He dosen’t. I believe you mean why can’t He stop all suffering now. The most probable answer is contained in the meaning " redemptive suffering " and this is really where all suffering receives merit before God. But yes it is interesting that Our Lord will not stop suffering or the cause for it. This mystery has always plagued us for centuries and will continue on until the End. But I believe redemptive suffering teaching may help why God permits it even allowing His only Son to participate in it as well. God even did not stop His Son. Why? Redemption. May by everyone suffering is involved in a small way and contributing to the Redemption God has for Mankind. We are in fact completing it. God’s act of redemption was incomplete without us. We are now participating in it so that He can share His Glory with us. He desires that we share into His Glory. Just as His Only Son did not escape death so we too can participate in the Sufferings of Our Lord. For some good reason suffering is worth more to God and is very precious to Him. I don’t know if that helps explain certain sufferings but this God who is Our God has chosen that suffering is precious and those who suffer are even more precious to Him.

 

[prayerchanges]

There is an element of Chance within the framework of Design.

Is this your opinion or is the grounded in Catholic Doctrine? Do you know where one might find more on this?

 

[tonyrey]

Is this your opinion or is the grounded in Catholic Doctrine? Do you know where one might find more on this?

Catholic doctrine is not intended to answer all philosophical issues. The fact that there is an element of Chance within the framework of Design is implicitly recognised by everyone who believes disasters like the earthquake in Haiti and the floods in Pakistan are **not **willed by God. The Problem of Evil was the subject of my thesis and you are very welcome to ask any questions you may have…

 

[richardacombs]

Er, I don’t want to sound rude, but when you respond may you please break your response into pragraphs? It makes it easier to read. Thanks.
…
All right, but why is this necessary? Why doesn’t God stop people from dying in a fire, say? Sure the death may bring about a greater good but the horrible suffering of the person in the fire does nothing but cause Jesus to suffer too.
…
You’re basically saying that only God understands why people suffer. This may be true, but on the other hand, the Bible doesn’t say we can’t ask. So I’m asking and wondering.
…
It is true that Jesus is suffering with us and yet, he is omnipotent; can’t he stop this suffering?

You’ve already received the God allows evil to bring about the greater good explanation.

Understanding the nature of human suffering and evil, however, sheds light on your question. Whether the Genesis creation account is allegorical or not, Adam introduced evil to earthly beings when he disobeyed God. The Fall resulted in man’s suffering and ultimate physical death.

And though Christ died for our sins, He did not die to end earthly suffering. In fact, Jesus told us, “And He said to all, If any person wills to come after Me, let him deny himself [disown himself, forget, lose sight of himself and his own interests, refuse and give up himself] and take up his cross daily and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also].” Luke 9:23, Amplified Bible

St Paul reinforced the concept that human suffering is the price even believers pay after the Fall: “[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
That if possible I may attain to the [spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].” Philippians 3:10-11, Amplified Bible

If believers must endure earthly suffering, certainly non-believers cannot be exempted

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Catholic doctrine is not intended to answer all philosophical issues. The fact that there is an element of Chance within the framework of Design is implicitly recognised by everyone who believes disasters like the earthquake in Haiti and the floods in Pakistan are **not **willed by God. The Problem of Evil was the subject of my thesis and you are very welcome to ask any questions you may have…

All right. What’s your basic explanation?

 

[anns82]

The famous sceptic David Hume pointed out that natural evil has natural causes and that events occur according to the laws of nature rather than “particular volitions of the Deity”. Christians believe miracles occur but not continuously. It follows that God does not, as Calvin thought, will every drop of rain. Many events like accidents and disasters are due to unfortunate coincidences. That is why there is so much suffering which is pointless, valueless and meaningless - like that of the person burnt to death in a fire. Atheists attribute everything to Chance. Theists like Calvin attribute everything to Design. The truth lies between these extremes. There is an element of Chance within the framework of Design.

I thought your point was well put. God established the rules of nature - which involve shifting plates (causing earthquakes) and a biosphere (which naturally fluctuates, causing adverse weather conditions). Also, a house can catch on fire if a cigarette is left lit, or from a faulty electrical circuit. That is how nature functions - which is good because if it did not function based on laws then we would not be able to learn through science how to make medicine, microwave our food, etc.

Just how God does not violate our free will (He gave even Mary the choice in her role in the birth of Jesus), He also does not violate the laws of nature on a regular basis - only at times when miracles occur - which we would not recognize as miracles if we did not recognize the natural laws to begin with.

I forget where I read it (maybe CS Lewis or Chesterton) but rather than seeing the problem of pain as an indicator of there being no god, one should see the “problem” of the amount of happiness people experience in spite of all the pain that is in the world. Why do we cry when our friend dies? Because of the love we have for our friend. We are born into the world alone, we die alone, and yet we discover our purpose in our relationships. It is not a problem of pain, it is a “problem” love - which Jesus teaches us, is not the problem, but the answer.

 

[presidentjlh]

How can there be good if there is no evil? How could we truly choose to love God if we couldn’t freely choose to not love Him?

A good way to look at it is that evil is not so much the opposite of good as it is the absence of good. It’s like “light” and “darkness”. Is “darkness” its own separate thing, or is it simply the absence of light? For once you light up a dark room, the darkness didn’t shift to a different place. It simply vanished, because it was just an absence of light. Can you bring darkness into a room without having to remove light from an area (Such as an enclosed box?) No. But can you bring light into a dark room? Yes.

I admit, that’s quite the reach for an analogy, but I think it works to some extent. If everything was good, we wouldn’t recognize what good truly is. For us to know good, we must know evil.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Okay, there were a couple of good answers to the problem of MORAL evil. But this is the problem of NATURAL evil and suffering.

There were good answers to that too, but I just want to make sure we stay on topic.

 

[awatkins69]

The problem of natural evil is fairly easy - much easier than the problem of moral evil. It basically has to do with the inherent limitations of creation, and is based on the idea that evil is a “privatio boni” or "privation of good. This is the solution according to Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas. I’m going to copy a post I had somewhere else since there’s not much more I can say.

While I can’t really give help for suffering and natural evil, I can try to explain why it is not logically inconsistent with God. Hopefully I can say this clearly. Now, all good is actuality. Since only God is pure actuality, all creation, which is “separate” from God, must be imperfect (having potentiality). If it were perfect it would be God, and there would be no creation. So basically, if we’re asking God to make a perfect creation, in the strict sense of perfect, then we’re asking Him to not create anything. But if God is good He would be loving and want to share His being with other creatures.

Basically, evil is not a substance that God created. It’s sort of like a shadow which is not anything in itself, but rather an absence of light. Likewise, evil is just an absence of good.

 

[tonyrey]

I thought your point was well put. God established the rules of nature - which involve shifting plates (causing earthquakes) and a biosphere (which naturally fluctuates, causing adverse weather conditions). Also, a house can catch on fire if a cigarette is left lit, or from a faulty electrical circuit. That is how nature functions - which is good because if it did not function based on laws then we would not be able to learn through science how to make medicine, microwave our food, etc.

Just how God does not violate our free will (He gave even Mary the choice in her role in the birth of Jesus), He also does not violate the laws of nature on a regular basis - only at times when miracles occur - which we would not recognize as miracles if we did not recognize the natural laws to begin with.

I forget where I read it (maybe CS Lewis or Chesterton) but rather than seeing the problem of pain as an indicator of there being no god, one should see the “problem” of the amount of happiness people experience in spite of all the pain that is in the world. Why do we cry when our friend dies? Because of the love we have for our friend. We are born into the world alone, we die alone, and yet we discover our purpose in our relationships. It is not a problem of pain, it is a “problem” love - which Jesus teaches us, is not the problem, but the answer.

Thank you for elaborating on my point. The problem of good is usually ignored because evil is so much more striking. We tend to take the benefits of life for granted and focus on what goes wrong. Good news rarely makes the headlines… Filial ingratitude!