The problem of "soft Catholics" and hell

[justamoose89]

I’m having a problem with some Catholics in authority at my university. They refuse to believe that God will send anyone to hell, because God is loving, and a loving God wouldn’t do that. I’ve tried using scripture, but I’ve met with some really lame responses that seem to satisfy them. ex: When I told them that in the Bible, Jesus said He was the Way the Truth and the Light, and no one comes to the Father except by Him, they said “Well imperfect men wrote the Bible, and translated the Bible, they made a mistake there.”

How can I respond? The answers I’ve been getting from them are irrational and nonsensical. This is just getting ridiculous.

 

[Carlan]

I’m having a problem with some Catholics in authority at my university. They refuse to believe that God will send anyone to hell, because God is loving, and a loving God wouldn’t do that. I’ve tried using scripture, but I’ve met with some really lame responses that seem to satisfy them. ex: When I told them that in the Bible, Jesus said He was the Way the Truth and the Light, and no one comes to the Father except by Him, they said “Well imperfect men wrote the Bible, and translated the Bible, they made a mistake there.”

How can I respond? The answers I’ve been getting from them are irrational and nonsensical. This is just getting ridiculous.

They are out there, we can pray, and continue to be the best example possible.God, never fear, knows how to deal with them, he knows whats lacking, we just have to trust.Peace, Carlan

 

[jilly4ski]

You could say:

God is indeed loving, which is why he will not force anyone to be in heaven with him if they don’t want to.

Does that work?

 

[RosaryFan]

A man once told Padre Pio that he didn’t believe in hell. The good Padre replied, “You will when you get there”.

 

[grepin7]

It is exactly because of God’s great love for us that He allows Hell to exist. Love is always freely given and freely received, or it is not really love. God offers every human infinite Love, but would never force His Love on us if we reject it. So, if a person refuses to spend eternity with God in His Love (by dieing in a state of mortal sin without repentance), He respects their freewill and lets them do it. To quote C.S. Lewis: “The gates of Hell are locked from the inside”. In other words, anyone in Hell is there by their own choice. When the Bible speaks of Hell (mostly from the mouth of Christ Himself), think of it not as much as a threat but as a warning or even a plead for us to repent. If you saw someone you love tremendously running full speed toward a cliff, would you not warn them and do anything you could to get them to turn around? Christ not only warns us about Hell in the Scriptures but lets Himself be tortured and killed, and rises to make our “turn around” (repentance and forgiveness) possible.

 

[Dale_M]

I’m having a problem with some Catholics in authority at my university. They refuse to believe that God will send anyone to hell, because God is loving, and a loving God wouldn’t do that. I’ve tried using scripture, but I’ve met with some really lame responses that seem to satisfy them. ex: When I told them that in the Bible, Jesus said He was the Way the Truth and the Light, and no one comes to the Father except by Him, they said “Well imperfect men wrote the Bible, and translated the Bible, they made a mistake there.”

If they are Catholic, you can always refer to the Catechism:

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV

 

[CSJ]

God does not send anyone to Hell. People send themselves to Hell by the choice they make. God is loving and that is why He made a way by which we could all enter Heaven. Jesus is that Way, that Truth, and that Life. God is not willing that any should perish, but He gives us a choice to choose His Will or our own. We decide.

 

[tjm190]

Maybe they made a mistake when they said God was loving

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’m having a problem with some Catholics in authority at my university. They refuse to believe that God will send anyone to hell, because God is loving, and a loving God wouldn’t do that. I’ve tried using scripture, but I’ve met with some really lame responses that seem to satisfy them. ex: When I told them that in the Bible, Jesus said He was the Way the Truth and the Light, and no one comes to the Father except by Him, they said “Well imperfect men wrote the Bible, and translated the Bible, they made a mistake there.”

How can I respond? The answers I’ve been getting from them are irrational and nonsensical. This is just getting ridiculous.

Q.
If you were in seminary, I would imagine that you would get a different experience.

Q. If you are not in seminary, why would you expect universities with catholic names to be in line with catholic theology and faithful to the magisterium?
Are they required to? Was Notre Dame required to? Of course not.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Whenever you get irrational responses, then it’s usually time to bow out. You cannot reason with the unreasonable. Some people are impervious to rational thought and it takes an act of grace to move them.

I mean for crying out loud, if they think the Bible is untrustworthy because “imperfect” men wrote it, why on earth should you trust anything your professor said? It might do no good to point out that their logic completely diffuses themselves…

 

[justamoose89]

Whenever you get irrational responses, then it’s usually time to bow out. You cannot reason with the unreasonable. Some people are impervious to rational thought and it takes an act of grace to move them.

I mean for crying out loud, if they think the Bible is untrustworthy because “imperfect” men wrote it, why on earth should you trust anything your professor said? It might do no good to point out that their logic completely diffuses themselves…

The people giving me trouble at my university are campus ministry peer ministers (and the director!). I’m also a peer minister, but the girl who said the Bible wasn’t trustworthy is the graduate assistant.

I know that I’ve come to a point where sometimes its just best to bow out. I need to pray for the humility to do so

 

[HickmanJosh]

Maybe they made a mistake when they said God was loving

God Himself said it and proved it on the Cross

 

[smithm29]

If they’re official “campus ministers” then they’re under someone’s authority, whether the bishop or the university president. Find out who and report their heresy. They might be leading people to sin.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The people giving me trouble at my university are campus ministry peer ministers (and the director!). I’m also a peer minister, but the girl who said the Bible wasn’t trustworthy is the graduate assistant.

I know that I’ve come to a point where sometimes its just best to bow out. I need to pray for the humility to do so

I hear you. Sometimes it’s hard not to walk away without taking the last word. But I can tell you, I have found it liberating. Even if the person seems to be left to their irrationality, you don’t know if you’ve planted a seed or not. Let’s hope you did.

 

[Mark77]

The people giving me trouble at my university are campus ministry peer ministers (and the director!). I’m also a peer minister, but the girl who said the Bible wasn’t trustworthy is the graduate assistant.

I know that I’ve come to a point where sometimes its just best to bow out. I need to pray for the humility to do so

**If they do not believe the Bible is trustworthy (the canon of Sacred Scripture was compiled by the Catholic Church) & they do not believe Catholic Church teaching (CCC 1035 “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity”) why are they Catholic Campus peer ministers???

They should join the nearest Protestant church where they can believe whatever they want & stop confusing poor Catholic students who they are supposed to be guiding to the Fullness of the Truth which is Jesus Christ Himself!

These misguided people are just one tiny step away from not believing in the Divinity of Jesus & could just as easily follow Oprah or any other New Age guru.

Pray for them!!!
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[curlycool89]

If they’re official “campus ministers” then they’re under someone’s authority, whether the bishop or the university president. Find out who and report their heresy. They might be leading people to sin.

I agree with this. It’s one thing to have fiends say it, it completely another for campus ministers to say it.

 

[odile53]

After some “theologic discussions” in which I’ve obviously been talking with someone who defends an obviously erroneous point of view to the point of irrationality, I’ve had to develop the ability to politely change the subject and bow out.

I’m just sharing this because I think it’s important to take into account the context of your discussions. Was this a group of friends chatting? Or was this an instructor lecturing?

In my case, I use the term “theologic discussions” in quotes, because some of these conversations have evolved during social conversations. In other words, nobody was an authority of, or representing anything, having to do with faith or the sacred. It was just friends talking about something having to do with the Catholic faith, and someone would say something off the wall, off the cuff, so to speak. And, as the old joke goes, “that’s when the fight started…”

I’ve taken these “discussions” as an indication from the Holy Spirit that, although He has given me many gifts, the gifts of teaching and evangelization are not among them, that I’m not particularly good at either teaching or evangelizing, and therefore I would be better off leaving these things to those more qualified by the gifts of the Spirit to exercise them!

If this is a social group, and you want to have a little fun with your friends, you might want to pose this question to them (which was a question I actually had for “extra credit” in a physics exam when I was a student at a Catholic college): “Is hell exothermic or endothermic?”

 

[justamoose89]

After some “theologic discussions” in which I’ve obviously been talking with someone who defends an obviously erroneous point of view to the point of irrationality, I’ve had to develop the ability to politely change the subject and bow out.

I’m just sharing this because I think it’s important to take into account the context of your discussions. Was this a group of friends chatting? Or was this an instructor lecturing?

In my case, I use the term “theologic discussions” in quotes, because some of these conversations have evolved during social conversations. In other words, nobody was an authority of, or representing anything, having to do with faith or the sacred. It was just friends talking about something having to do with the Catholic faith, and someone would say something off the wall, off the cuff, so to speak. And, as the old joke goes, “that’s when the fight started…”

I’ve taken these “discussions” as an indication from the Holy Spirit that, although He has given me many gifts, the gifts of teaching and evangelization are not among them, that I’m not particularly good at either teaching or evangelizing, and therefore I would be better off leaving these things to those more qualified by the gifts of the Spirit to exercise them!

If this is a social group, and you want to have a little fun with your friends, you might want to pose this question to them (which was a question I actually had for “extra credit” in a physics exam when I was a student at a Catholic college): “Is hell exothermic or endothermic?”

Our discussions usually take place during official campus ministry events, such as the gatherings or the core group meetings. I had kept my mouth shut for so long, that it was evolving to a place where I could not go and could not support. Thankfully I am not alone.

It would be wonderful if I had someone to report this to. Unfortunately, the University president prides himself on saying that “We want you to be stronger in your faith when you come into this University, whatever your faith is, whether it be Christian, Hundu, Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever it may be”. So our “Catholic” university is pretty relative in its thinking. There are a few nuns (who were the ones that started the university), but they’re pretty theologically liberal as well. Mujerista theology and liberation theology are the main focuses of the class “Understanding Catholicism”.

Mark77: its really ironic that you mentioned the New Age. My school is really getting into that. The whole “Mother Earth” God is nature and nature is God thing. There are other ways to heaven than Christ. etc etc. And why are these people Catholic peer ministers at a Catholic school? No idea. One of the peer ministers for the next year is Buddhist. Not really sure how a Buddhist is going to be a minister for Catholics…

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

God does not send anyone to Hell. People send themselves to Hell by the choice they make.

In the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25), when the goats expressed surprise at being tossed into the flames, is it really correct to say they sent themselves to Hell? God is the one telling them to go there.

I have been wondering about this lately, as I often hear Catholics and non-Catholics alike say that people choose to go to Hell. I understand why people want to say this, because it takes the blame away from God. It is very difficult to love God if He sentences those who do not love Him (or who went to the wrong church) to an eternity of torment. However, the New Testament, at least in my opinion, really seems to weigh in on the idea that God is the judge, sending people to Hell, even if they would really prefer to be elsewhere.

“Soft” Christians of any variety, who are unable to believe God sends people to Hell are certainly not expressing orthodox doctrine. However, many of them are likely experiencing a real dilemma. How can they love God and teach others to love Him, if they believe He sentences even so much as a single person to unceasing, blistering torture for ever and ever?

Some people can reconcile God’s love with the existence of Hell, and some people cannot. I suppose you could try to convince them with Lewis’s “the doors are locked from the inside” argument, but I do not know if that lines up with accepted Catholic orthodoxy.

 

[tjm190]

God Himself said it and proved it on the Cross

My point is- two claims the Bible makes (about hell and the loving of God) are perceived as contradictory by them. So they decide one is a mistake, with no supporting evidence. Why assume one is a mistake over the other?