The problem of Witchcraft/Paganism

[system]

maan…alot of you guys dont know anything about Wicca.
why dont we look at the bad side of catholics?
you have a religion that contradicts itself half the time…dont kill people…but then somewhere else it says to kill all gay people. what the hell!!

its a religion thats based on fear…if you dont go to church once a week…you go to hell.

you have priests that are pedophiles…and most catholics i know are just plain *** holes. they only want to act like God when it suits them. but if something goes wrong for them…they are the first ones trying to rip people off.

and another thing…all you bozos try and convert people. i mean…if someone wants to be a catholic/christian…he can make the choice…so why dont you all just shut up and stop forcing your beliefs on people who dont want to follow in your stupid power hungry religion!!

you guys dont believe in free will… if this person isnt a catholic…lets pray for him. well why dont you stick your prayers where the sun dont shine because like i said…its up to people to pick what religion they want to go in. i believe in God and a Goddess, not a revengeful God like yours.

Wicca/Paganism was one of the first religions ever…christianity didnt come in til a couple thousand years ago. it wanst always there. catholics was a religion started up by the romans and the bible is gay. it wasnt written by God. it was written by man, and im pretty sure that people would of changed stories here and there to make it sound cooler, or changed it to their liking.

and if you catholics are really peace loving people…then why is religion the main cause of war? you think God wants you to kill the Muslims? naa. thats just you guys trying to force yourselves apon everyone else. just like in the medieval times…you fags killed witches. doesnt it say in the bible to not kill anyone?

have a think about it.
oh and “satan” loves you

 

[NoWings]

maan…alot of you guys dont know anything about Wicca.
why dont we look at the bad side of catholics?
you have a religion that contradicts itself half the time…dont kill people…but then somewhere else it says to kill all gay people. what the hell!!

Please provide a reference stating that the Catholic Church has ordered and encouraged its faithful to “kill all gay people”. State your source or be guilty of slander and calumny.

its a religion thats based on fear…if you dont go to church once a week…you go to hell.

Only God knows who goes to Hell.

you have priests that are pedophiles…

You also have plumbers who are pedophiles… and doctors… and school-teachers…

and most catholics i know are just plain *** holes. they only want to act like God when it suits them. but if something goes wrong for them…they are the first ones trying to rip people off.

Sweeping generalization and unfair to those you haven’t met.

and another thing…all you bozos try and convert people. i mean…if someone wants to be a catholic/christian…he can make the choice…so why dont you all just shut up and stop forcing your beliefs on people who dont want to follow in your stupid power hungry religion!!

looks around I don’t see anyone forcing anyone to be Catholic at gunpoint… or swordpoint…

you guys dont believe in free will…

An absolute lie.

if this person isnt a catholic…lets pray for him. well why dont you stick your prayers where the sun dont shine because like i said…its up to people to pick what religion they want to go in.

Right. So, the next time you attempt a binding on someone or something, such as an animal, even if for protection, you’ll kindly not do so because you shouldn’t force your religion or your workings stemming from that on others. Gotcha.

i believe in God and a Goddess, not a revengeful God like yours.

You believe in a Goddess that watches her son die every year, only to give birth and copulate with him during the beginning of the wheel.

You obviously don’t know the God very well if you think he doesn’t have a dark, vengeful, aggressive side. He is found in the Cheetah to the Antelope and the Shark to the Fish. If the God and Goddess are reflective of nature then you obviously haven’t been outside in a while.

Wicca/Paganism was one of the first religions ever…

I am so sick of hearing that Wicca is thousands of years old. No, it isn’t. It’s about 70 years old.

Secondly, “Paganism” as it was doesn’t exist hardly anywhere anymore. You want to be a real-deal pagan? Sacrifice your enemies to Othinn before doing battle. Slit the throats of chosen to refertilize the crops for next harvest.

christianity didnt come in til a couple thousand years ago. it wanst always there. catholics was a religion started up by the romans and the bible is gay.

Wow, very clever in point of fact. Your play on words leaves me breathless at the depth of your analysis.

it wasnt written by God. it was written by man, and im pretty sure that people would of changed stories here and there to make it sound cooler, or changed it to their liking.

Perhaps, but so were your myths. Which, if you’re being fair, means that your religion is just as much hokey woo-woo as what you’re angry at.

and if you catholics are really peace loving people…then why is religion the main cause of war?

Good grief. There you go with your childish, ignorant hypocrisy again.

Open a history book. Or, heck, open a book of myths. Then, look at what pagans did back in the day. Here’s what they did. They ate, they had sex, and they killed each other. If they weren’t killing other cultures, they were killing other tribes within their own culture.

you think God wants you to kill the Muslims? naa. thats just you guys trying to force yourselves apon everyone else.

Please provide a source that says the Church endorses the killing of Muslims (or any people).

just like in the medieval times…you fags killed witches.

First off, in that unelightened time, people thought that witches were people who caused crops to die and women to grow barren. There wasn’t a marauding mob of people out to kill Cinderella’s fairy godmother.

Secondly, the Pope has apologized for the past sins of the Church.

Last, if you think that pagans didn’t slaughter people then you haven’t read any history books and you’re a poseur, pure and simple.

doesnt it say in the bible to not kill anyone?

Quite specifically says, “murder.” Thou shalt not murder.

have a think about it.
oh and “satan” loves you

Please… you’ve apparently confused us with non-thinking fundamentalist types.

You’re the one that came in here and decided to go on a childish tirade that proves nothing but that you can be a belligerent *** who spouts nonsense.

Really. Grow up.

 

[AnAtheist]

Why is it that so many teenagers are flocking onto Witchcraft(Wicca especially) and Paganism?

Most of the Wiccas and Pagans I know are way beyond 30.

I even lost my closest friend to it for a while.

A friend seizes to be a friend when he or she changes thier religion? :nope:

So in conclusion what can we do whether were in High School or not to reverse this trend or at least bring it to a halt?

Burn them like in the good old days?

 

[AnAtheist]

Secondly, “Paganism” as it was doesn’t exist hardly anywhere anymore. You want to be a real-deal pagan? Sacrifice your enemies to Othinn before doing battle.

You have a distorted vision of paganism.
Besides, you cannot sacrifice enemies before doing battle, you have to wait until after battle when you have actually captured some.

 

[NoWings]

You have a distorted vision of paganism.
Besides, you cannot sacrifice enemies before doing battle, you have to wait until after battle when you have actually captured some.

I do not.

That’s what border skirmishes are for.

*edit

I almost forgot. Which version (or ‘flavor’ if you will) of paganism do I have an apparent distorted view of?

 

[AnAtheist]

Which version (or ‘flavor’ if you will) of paganism do I have an apparent distorted view of?

As you mentioned Oðinn, I thought you were refering to Asatru or Germanic religions resp. There hasn’t been sacrifices of PoWs for the last 1500 years, all the ones archaeologically and historically recorded took place before or during the Migration period. That was 300 to 500 year before the Germanic paganism had developped the imagery we know today, and has certainly nothing to do with modern Neopagans.

 

[NoWings]

and has certainly nothing to do with modern Neopagans.

Yes, that was exactly my point to him in my post. If he really wants to go and be a real-deal pagan, then let’s sacrifice some priest kings for the good of fertility.

 

[jpk1313]

maan…alot of you guys dont know anything about Wicca.
why dont we look at the bad side of catholics?
you have a religion that contradicts itself half the time…dont kill people…but then somewhere else it says to kill all gay people. what the hell!!

its a religion thats based on fear…if you dont go to church once a week…you go to hell.

you have priests that are pedophiles…and most catholics i know are just plain *** holes. they only want to act like God when it suits them. but if something goes wrong for them…they are the first ones trying to rip people off.

and another thing…all you bozos try and convert people. i mean…if someone wants to be a catholic/christian…he can make the choice…so why dont you all just shut up and stop forcing your beliefs on people who dont want to follow in your stupid power hungry religion!!

you guys dont believe in free will… if this person isnt a catholic…lets pray for him. well why dont you stick your prayers where the sun dont shine because like i said…its up to people to pick what religion they want to go in. i believe in God and a Goddess, not a revengeful God like yours.

Wicca/Paganism was one of the first religions ever…christianity didnt come in til a couple thousand years ago. it wanst always there. catholics was a religion started up by the romans and the bible is gay. it wasnt written by God. it was written by man, and im pretty sure that people would of changed stories here and there to make it sound cooler, or changed it to their liking.

and if you catholics are really peace loving people…then why is religion the main cause of war? you think God wants you to kill the Muslims? naa. thats just you guys trying to force yourselves apon everyone else. just like in the medieval times…you fags killed witches. doesnt it say in the bible to not kill anyone?

have a think about it.
oh and “satan” loves you

First wicca is not one of the first relgions it was started by alister crowly and gerald gardner mostly for the chance of getting laid. second religion is not the cause of war, war is caused by politians wanting land power and money who use religion to justify going to war. third satan can not love for satan is pure evil/nihlism.

I was lost like you once my unknown friend I practiced magik and worrshiped pagan gods for 13 years and I ended up as you are now full of hate and rage. But the hate and rage you feel is not really about other people or their opinions it is all about you. You see something others have that you do not and all the magik in the world will never bring it to you. What you lack is peace and a sense of being loved by the creator of all things. You came to a catholic forum for a reason, and it was not to bash people but you are seeking for that peace and love. And I’m hear to tell you as someone who has been where you are Jesus Christ the Son of God Died for YOUR SINS and Rose from the GRAVE he forgives you of all that you have done in your thoughts in your words in your actions and in what you have failed to do. All you need to do is ask him and he will prove to you that The SON OF GOD truly is the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. it is through forgivness that one comes to be born of the spirit (gosple of John chapter 3 go read it all) and enters into the kingdom of heaven. Stop judging christianity based on the actions of those who belive and look at the actual belifes for them selves.

Jesus Loves you dear unknown Friend and so do I.
The Church is praying for you

 

[mangy_dog]

maan…alot of you guys dont know anything about Wicca.
why dont we look at the bad side of catholics?
you have a religion that contradicts itself half the time…dont kill people…but then somewhere else it says to kill all gay people. what the hell!!

its a religion thats based on fear…if you dont go to church once a week…you go to hell.

you have priests that are pedophiles…and most catholics i know are just plain *** holes. they only want to act like God when it suits them. but if something goes wrong for them…they are the first ones trying to rip people off.

and another thing…all you bozos try and convert people. i mean…if someone wants to be a catholic/christian…he can make the choice…so why dont you all just shut up and stop forcing your beliefs on people who dont want to follow in your stupid power hungry religion!!

you guys dont believe in free will… if this person isnt a catholic…lets pray for him. well why dont you stick your prayers where the sun dont shine because like i said…its up to people to pick what religion they want to go in. i believe in God and a Goddess, not a revengeful God like yours.

Wicca/Paganism was one of the first religions ever…christianity didnt come in til a couple thousand years ago. it wanst always there. catholics was a religion started up by the romans and the bible is gay. it wasnt written by God. it was written by man, and im pretty sure that people would of changed stories here and there to make it sound cooler, or changed it to their liking.

and if you catholics are really peace loving people…then why is religion the main cause of war? you think God wants you to kill the Muslims? naa. thats just you guys trying to force yourselves apon everyone else. just like in the medieval times…you fags killed witches. doesnt it say in the bible to not kill anyone?

have a think about it.
oh and “satan” loves you

That has got to be the most immature, incoherent, innaccurate, mis-guided, dim-witted bunch of malarky I have ever heard a poor soul babble.

You poor soul…

You are truly worthy of pity and prayers.

 

[crazzeto]

Okay this has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many teenagers are flocking onto Witchcraft(Wicca especially) and Paganism? Im in my last year in High School and i as far as i can tell theres no sign of it letting up, I even lost my closest friend to it for a while. So in conclusion what can we do whether were in High School or not to reverse this trend or at least bring it to a halt?

The problem resides in lack of religious education. Also TV programs like Harry Potter pushes young people there. TV, Media are means of communication and if for centuries Church was the master of communication and education, most books were printed by Church, media now Media is out of control with bad consequences.

I think you’re hitting on something with the lack of education, both religious and ingeneral. While I don’t deny people can be affected by media, I’m not sure whether blaming “harry potter” is the direction to go though. If you ground your childeren from a young age, in Christian truth with a solid understanding of Sacrade Scripture (& Tradition for us Catholics & E. Orthodox) then whatever affect the likes of Harry Potter might have are minimal.

I can’t speak for Protistantism, but I know for a fact in Roman Catholisim we are suffering terribly from 2 decades of horrifically bad catechisis. We have all sorts of people from the 70s and 80s (my self included) who grew up having no clue about anything in the faith. We were lulled into believing all sorts of vicious falshoods about our faith penned by enemy’s of the faith (Female Pope, mis-caraterization of the inquisitions & crusades among many other things), also lulled into believing hype that our faith wasn’t necessarly supported by the bible. Then factor in the Babyboomers who make poor choices like “I’m not going to baptise you, I’m going to let you choose for your self”, then leave their childeren to fend for them selves completely with little to no religious education.

It’s no wonder Christianity is suffering so badly right now, and it’s going to take major action to turn things around. I know on the Catholic side we’re working hard to correct this situation, and I’m sure individual protistant church are implementing whatever measures are appropriate (if any) to correct whatever similar problems they might have.

But ultimatly, I don’t think blaming the media is the problem. Blame us, or at least those of us raising childeren now having never bothered to learn about their faith. I took it upon my self to learn more about the Catholic faith, and I’ve grown to deeply charish it. It is my greatest hope that all of my childeren will, it’s a top priority for me. If you want to see a general turn around, we’re all going to have to make this choice. Learn everything we can, soak it all in like a spoung. Then pour all that knowlege on our childeren in a timely, appropriate manner.

 

[heartwood010]

I am new here and do not wish to offend, but I felt the need to respond to this post.

All this wicca paganism has one source and one source only - Lucifer and the demons.

In my Father’s house, there are many mansions. I have taken this to believe that while the only way to heaven is through Jesus, there are many ways to Jesus.

There is no “magic”, “magick” or magique’ that doesn’t have the one and same source - it is thru the demons of hell.

And the transformation of bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ comes from the demons of hell?

*There is no power within you except the life-sustaining gift of Jesus Christ…His word alone sustains us in existence.
*
If all things come from Christ, then wouldn’t the ability to heal the flesh (think of numerous Saints here), or create a spell to get a job, (prayer) or the fervent desire for something to happen (Miracle) also come from Christ?

*It is sad to hear about so many young (and not so young) people being duped by the demons into thinking that “they have magical powers and abilities”. *

So all of the people who believe in miracles, or angels, or the power of the saints are being duped by demons?

All of that being said, here is my thoughts on the subject.

1)The hand of God Almighty wrote the Ten Commandments and the first commandment was “Thou shall not have any god before me”. That, in and of itself, written by the Hand of God, shows that God acknowledges the existence of other gods.

1. Given the extreme complexity of the creation of the Universe, and the improbability of life spontaneously combusting on our planet, there must be a Divine Power.
2. The Bible talks about the God of Abraham and Isaac as if they are one entity. If that is indeed the case, then the Divine, called by whatever name, is still the Divine.
3. Any religion that reveres the Divine in more than one aspect is essentially polytheistic. The Catholic church, and Christians in general, are just as guilty of this as any pagan religion. Prayers are offered to the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit, The Mother Mary, numerous saints, all in the hope of Divine intervention. Just how, exactly, is that any different from offering prayers or revering the God and Goddess of the many Wiccan religions?
4. You can call it whatever you want, but a prayer and a spell are essentially the same thing. A wish to change the way things are. All the rest is just semantics.

The belief that “if you do not believe the exact same thing that I do, you are going to hell” or the belief that anyone who casts a “spell” gets their power from Satan is small minded. The Divine gave us free will with the intention that we use it. The Divine gave a brain to think for ourselves so that we could grow and learn. Those who chose not to learn from their mistakes, inevitably repeat them. We evolve for a reason.

It is my opinion that we are meant to learn, and evolve, into something greater than what our human flesh is capable of. And when we have done so, then, and only then, will we be admitted into the presence of the Divine.

 

[mangy_dog]

I am new here and do not wish to offend, but I felt the need to respond to this post.

All this wicca paganism has one source and one source only - Lucifer and the demons.

In my Father’s house, there are many mansions. I have taken this to believe that while the only way to heaven is through Jesus, there are many ways to Jesus.

There is no “magic”, “magick” or magique’ that doesn’t have the one and same source - it is thru the demons of hell.

And the transformation of bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ comes from the demons of hell?

*There is no power within you except the life-sustaining gift of Jesus Christ…His word alone sustains us in existence.
*
If all things come from Christ, then wouldn’t the ability to heal the flesh (think of numerous Saints here), or create a spell to get a job, (prayer) or the fervent desire for something to happen (Miracle) also come from Christ?

*It is sad to hear about so many young (and not so young) people being duped by the demons into thinking that “they have magical powers and abilities”. *

So all of the people who believe in miracles, or angels, or the power of the saints are being duped by demons?

All of that being said, here is my thoughts on the subject.

1)The hand of God Almighty wrote the Ten Commandments and the first commandment was “Thou shall not have any god before me”. That, in and of itself, written by the Hand of God, shows that God acknowledges the existence of other gods.

1. Given the extreme complexity of the creation of the Universe, and the improbability of life spontaneously combusting on our planet, there must be a Divine Power.
2. The Bible talks about the God of Abraham and Isaac as if they are one entity. If that is indeed the case, then the Divine, called by whatever name, is still the Divine.
3. Any religion that reveres the Divine in more than one aspect is essentially polytheistic. The Catholic church, and Christians in general, are just as guilty of this as any pagan religion. Prayers are offered to the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit, The Mother Mary, numerous saints, all in the hope of Divine intervention. Just how, exactly, is that any different from offering prayers or revering the God and Goddess of the many Wiccan religions?
4. You can call it whatever you want, but a prayer and a spell are essentially the same thing. A wish to change the way things are. All the rest is just semantics.

The belief that “if you do not believe the exact same thing that I do, you are going to hell” or the belief that anyone who casts a “spell” gets their power from Satan is small minded. The Divine gave us free will with the intention that we use it. The Divine gave a brain to think for ourselves so that we could grow and learn. Those who chose not to learn from their mistakes, inevitably repeat them. We evolve for a reason.

It is my opinion that we are meant to learn, and evolve, into something greater than what our human flesh is capable of. And when we have done so, then, and only then, will we be admitted into the presence of the Divine.

You “equate” occult/pagan terms and ideas to the sacred…this is blasphemy.

A spell is a conversation with the demon. Sugarcoat it all you want.

No matter how inocuous or tame you represent the “parallels”, - occult practices are of the devil and incompatible with the Sound Doctrine of Jesus Christ.

 

[heartwood010]

You “equate” occult/pagan terms and ideas to the sacred…this is blasphemy.

A spell is a conversation with the demon. Sugarcoat it all you want.

No matter how inocuous or tame you represent the “parallels”, - occult practices are of the devil and incompatible with the Sound Doctrine of Jesus Christ.

And yet you cannot refute any of my comments. Your only response is to basically say “Your wrong, I’m right”.

Jesus turned water to wine. Is that a miracle or was it magic?

St Francis of Assisi spoke with animals. Was he just a crazy old man or did he have a gift from God?

There are many instances of transmutation and miracles in the bible. Ae you saying that all of these things are demonic?

Give me a logical argument as to how I am wrong.

 

[crazzeto]

I am new here and do not wish to offend, but I felt the need to respond to this post.

All this wicca paganism has one source and one source only - Lucifer and the demons.

In my Father’s house, there are many mansions. I have taken this to believe that while the only way to heaven is through Jesus, there are many ways to Jesus.

There is no “magic”, “magick” or magique’ that doesn’t have the one and same source - it is thru the demons of hell.

And the transformation of bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ comes from the demons of hell?

You are incorrect in your assertion that this is any form of “magic”, this is not “magic”. The priest does not use his words to bless the bread and wine, he use’s Christ’s words, it is the Grace bestowed from Christ alone which causes transubstantiation. For more on this topic I would suggest you read newadvent’s writings

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

Also know, that this belief is Apostolic in nature, as in it was taught by the apostles. So, there is no magic, the preist does nothing magical. He is fulfilling, faithfully his office, as taught by the Apostles of Christ Jesus.

*There is no power within you except the life-sustaining gift of Jesus Christ…His word alone sustains us in existence.
*
If all things come from Christ, then wouldn’t the ability to heal the flesh (think of numerous Saints here), or create a spell to get a job, (prayer) or the fervent desire for something to happen (Miracle) also come from Christ?

Miricles come from God and God alone, it is not the individual performing any kind of “magic” which affects the miraculas ends. It is only the Grace of God, in some cases bestowed directly (after prayer), other times through a Saint, and still others from a blessed individual still living. Again, there is no magic here. It is all God bestowing the gifl. What you refer to as “magic”, is most probably a fallen angel performing some task for you in order to suck you into false belief. Something which takes you from the path of Christ. If such a thing is happening at all.

*It is sad to hear about so many young (and not so young) people being duped by the demons into thinking that “they have magical powers and abilities”. *

So all of the people who believe in miracles, or angels, or the power of the saints are being duped by demons?

No, people who believe this have read the bible. People who attempt to “cast spells”, “invoke ancient gods” or do any action not condoned as profitable, blessed or noble by God the Father, the Holy Spirit or Christ Jesus is in fact being duped by some power not in communion with God. For the record, all Church teachings were received from these sources.

All of that being said, here is my thoughts on the subject.

1)The hand of God Almighty wrote the Ten Commandments and the first commandment was “Thou shall not have any god before me”. That, in and of itself, written by the Hand of God, shows that God acknowledges the existence of other gods.

Wow you’re way out of left field, what God is talkign about is the fact that there is no god other than God (singular). God proves this many times over, from a challenge to have a false, golden calf God make it rain (which never happend, until it was God’s turn), to God moching the Egyptions many false Gods through the Pleges that would eventually free the people of Israel. There is no God but God.

1. Given the extreme complexity of the creation of the Universe, and the improbability of life spontaneously combusting on our planet, there must be a Divine Power.

Well I do agree here. A (signular) divine power

1. The Bible talks about the God of Abraham and Isaac as if they are one entity. If that is indeed the case, then the Divine, called by whatever name, is still the Divine.

God is indeed divine, with all attributes one would expect. Yes I agree that God (singular) is divine.

1. Any religion that reveres the Divine in more than one aspect is essentially polytheistic. The Catholic church, and Christians in general, are just as guilty of this as any pagan religion. Prayers are offered to the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit, The Mother Mary, numerous saints, all in the hope of Divine intervention. Just how, exactly, is that any different from offering prayers or revering the God and Goddess of the many Wiccan religions?

you are wrong here, the father, son and holy spirit constitue a single God, fully, truely and mysteriously one in the holy trinity. The Mother of God, the Virgin Mary is not a “God”, she is a creature of God. A created being just like us, different only in her immaculate conception, having never commited personal sin, died a virgin, and being completely conformed to God. The numerous Saints are all created beings, absolutly no different from us what so ever. A Saint is nothing more than a soul which has triumphently entered heaven. We pray to Saints for intercession (for them to pray for us) because the Bible Tells us “the prayers of a ritcheous man avails much”. Saints are in heaven! They made it! They’re the best people to have praying for you, God is actually more likely to listen to them, per biblical teaching, than they are you (plural, any of us on earth).

This is completely different from the other “religions” as these other “religions” promote an idea of various, equal Gods all completely independantly willed. None if that exists in any valid form of Christendom.

End Part 1

 

[crazzeto]

Begin Part 2

1. You can call it whatever you want, but a prayer and a spell are essentially the same thing. A wish to change the way things are. All the rest is just semantics.

No they are not, a prayer is a petition to God to bestow his Grace. A spell would imply that the individual has some sort of power on their own, to affect a super natural outcome. No such thing exists, we have no such power. Any belief in such a power will lead you to be manipulated by fallen angels who will use their God given powers to decive you.

The belief that “if you do not believe the exact same thing that I do, you are going to hell” or the belief that anyone who casts a “spell” gets their power from Satan is small minded. The Divine gave us free will with the intention that we use it. The Divine gave a brain to think for ourselves so that we could grow and learn. Those who chose not to learn from their mistakes, inevitably repeat them. We evolve for a reason.

It is my opinion that we are meant to learn, and evolve, into something greater than what our human flesh is capable of. And when we have done so, then, and only then, will we be admitted into the presence of the Divine.

Based on these final, as well as the rest of your statements. You clearly have a whole lot to learn about Christianity. And how it is not at all compatible with anything you believe.

 

[heartwood010]

This is the kind of debate I can sink my teeth into. Thank you for your responses.

*You are incorrect in your assertion that this is any form of “magic”, this is not “magic”. The priest does not use his words to bless the bread and wine, he use’s Christ’s words, it is the Grace bestowed from Christ alone which causes transubstantiation. For more on this topic I would suggest you read newadvent’s writings
*
It is not my belief that an individual has the power, necessarily, to do anything. It is only through Divine intervention that any change can occur. As an example, in modern Wicca, when a “spell” is cast, the Lord or Lady (depending on the mythos involved and need of the spell) is called upon to perform the act. IF it be their will. So Mote it be. It is a petition. Nothing more. The same as a priest channeling the Divine to bless the Eucharist.

Miracles come from God and God alone, it is not the individual performing any kind of “magic” which affects the miraculous ends. It is only the Grace of God, in some cases bestowed directly (after prayer), other times through a Saint, and still others from a blessed individual still living. Again, there is no magic here. It is all God bestowing the gifl. What you refer to as “magic”, is most probably a fallen angel performing some task for you in order to suck you into false belief. Something which takes you from the path of Christ. If such a thing is happening at all.

**No, people who believe this have read the bible. People who attempt to “cast spells”, “invoke ancient gods” or do any action not condoned as profitable, blessed or noble by God the Father, the Holy Spirit or Christ Jesus is in fact being duped by some power not in communion with God. *

So God DOES, for some purposes, allow for these actions? The Grace of God, however it is achieved, is a miracle in and of itself. As I stated above, an individual does not perform “magic”, they simply petition the Divine for a specific purpose. Grace, however it is achieved, is being awash in the spirit of the Divine, being surrounded with the peace and love of the Divine, and being able to direct the energy gifted to you by the Divine to a specific purpose. It is not something I ever take lightly or without careful thought and prayer, and lots of meditation and preparation.

Wow you’re way out of left field, what God is talkign about is the fact that there is no god other than God (singular). God proves this many times over, from a challenge to have a false, golden calf God make it rain (which never happend, until it was God’s turn), to God moching the Egyptions many false Gods through the Pleges that would eventually free the people of Israel. There is no God but God.

One has to wonder why then, when all of the other commandments are very literal and not subject to debate, why His very first commandment was worded in such a way as to be misinterpreted.

God is indeed divine, with all attributes one would expect. Yes I agree that God (singular) is divine.

A rose, by any other name…

you are wrong here, the father, son and holy spirit constitue a single God, fully, truely and mysteriously one in the holy trinity. The Mother of God, the Virgin Mary is not a “God”, she is a creature of God. A created being just like us, different only in her immaculate conception, having never commited personal sin, died a virgin, and being completely conformed to God. The numerous Saints are all created beings, absolutly no different from us what so ever. A Saint is nothing more than a soul which has triumphently entered heaven. We pray to Saints for intercession (for them to pray for us) because the Bible Tells us “the prayers of a ritcheous man avails much”. Saints are in heaven! They made it! They’re the best people to have praying for you, God is actually more likely to listen to them, per biblical teaching, than they are you (plural, any of us on earth).

If all of these entities are one in the same, then why do some Christian religions pray to God, some pray to Jesus, others pray to Mary, some ask for the Holy Spirit to enter into their hearts and save them, etc? They are all aspects of the Divine, the One, the Creator of All.

This is completely different from the other “religions” as these other “religions” promote an idea of various, equal Gods all completely independantly willed. None if that exists in any valid form of Christendom.

How is it different than any polytheistic religion? If there is only one Divine, Holy, Creative Spirit, and God has many names, then all religions that hold to the same values that Christians do are equally valid. While I agree that not all “pagan” religions hold the same Christian values, and not all Wiccans are created equal, so to speak, I can only speak for myself and what I believe.*

 

[crazzeto]

It is not my belief that an individual has the power, necessarily, to do anything. It is only through Divine intervention that any change can occur. As an example, in modern Wicca, when a “spell” is cast, the Lord or Lady (depending on the mythos involved and need of the spell) is called upon to perform the act. IF it be their will. So Mote it be. It is a petition. Nothing more. The same as a priest channeling the Divine to bless the Eucharist.

You are trying to invent your own definitions in order to suite your arguements. I don’t beleive we can have a meaningful discussion on this basis. Your beliefs must be rooted in something which you can document, so please do so.

So God DOES, for some purposes, allow for these actions? The Grace of God, however it is achieved, is a miracle in and of itself. As I stated above, an individual does not perform “magic”, they simply petition the Divine for a specific purpose. Grace, however it is achieved, is being awash in the spirit of the Divine, being surrounded with the peace and love of the Divine, and being able to direct the energy gifted to you by the Divine to a specific purpose. It is not something I ever take lightly or without careful thought and prayer, and lots of meditation and preparation.

God does not allow these things to happen, God makes these things happen. Nothing happens with out God.

One has to wonder why then, when all of the other commandments are very literal and not subject to debate, why His very first commandment was worded in such a way as to be misinterpreted.

It was not worded in such a way, if you take the time to study scripture as well as the historical context of scripture. You have to ignore all the rest of the pentateuch, not to mention OT and NT in order to come to this conclusion.

If all of these entities are one in the same, then why do some Christian religions pray to God, some pray to Jesus, others pray to Mary, some ask for the Holy Spirit to enter into their hearts and save them, etc? They are all aspects of the Divine, the One, the Creator of All.

You need to understand the communion of Saints, in order to understand that all prayer is made through the God Head, and TO the God Head. God the Son is the Head, we are his body in the communion of saints. When we pray to any Saint (Mary and Angels included) those prayers must go through the God Head, then when the Saint responds, it is back to the God head. When the prayer is answered, it is answered by God, alone. The Saint can not answer your prayer, the saint has no power. Like I said, nothing happens with out God.

How is it different than any polytheistic religion? If there is only one Divine, Holy, Creative Spirit, and God has many names, then all religions that hold to the same values that Christians do are equally valid. While I agree that not all “pagan” religions hold the same Christian values, and not all Wiccans are created equal, so to speak, I can only speak for myself and what I believe.

Answered.

 

[heartwood010]

*No they are not, a prayer is a petition to God to bestow his Grace. A spell would imply that the individual has some sort of power on their own, to affect a super natural outcome. No such thing exists, we have no such power. Any belief in such a power will lead you to be manipulated by fallen angels who will use their God given powers to decive you. *

A “spell” is a petition to a specific aspect of the Divine to invoke a change. The same as a prayer is a petition to the Divine to invoke a change. There is no difference. I have no power other than what I was gifted with at birth by the Divine. I have never claimed otherwise.

*Based on these final, as well as the rest of your statements. You clearly have a whole lot to learn about Christianity. And how it is not at all compatible with anything you believe.
*

I was raised and baptized into the Baptist church. But the sheer hypocrisy of it all just turned my stomach. My sister-in-law is Catholic, my mother-in-law is Methodist, my father-in-law was Lutheran, my brother- and sister-in-laws are Evangelical, and my husband is an eclectic Christian. I think I have a fairly good grasp of Christianity.

I am an instrument of the Divine, the same as any other person on Earth. I ask, I never demand. I do not invoke anything. I will not willing harm another living creature. I bless my home for the protection from evil, I pray for my family, and for others in need. I give willingly to those who have less than I. I heal those who ask, either by giving a shoulder to lean on or with herbs and prayer. I have taught my children right from wrong, same as any Christian parent. And I have lively debates around a bonfire with my Christian friends. And I live, knowing I am unworthy yet I am still loved beyond measure by the Divine.

And that probably makes me the strangest witch you will ever meet.

 

[mangy_dog]

And yet you cannot refute any of my comments. Your only response is to basically say “Your wrong, I’m right”.

Jesus turned water to wine. Is that a miracle or was it magic?

St Francis of Assisi spoke with animals. Was he just a crazy old man or did he have a gift from God?

There are many instances of transmutation and miracles in the bible. Ae you saying that all of these things are demonic?

Give me a logical argument as to how I am wrong.

Just so it’s clear to you (yeah right)

1. Water into wine is a miracle of Jesus, not magic.
2. St. Francis did have a gift from God. Spells and other occult practices are not gifts from God.
3. The miracles done by Jesus in the Bible are not, I say again, not demonic.

Your “logical explanation” is that you are mixing apples and screwdrivers and calling them the same and equal.

Comprende?

 

[crazzeto]

heartwood, I do see that you have more points posted. I will reply when I have a little more time.