The problem of Witchcraft/Paganism

[heartwood010]

Just so it’s clear to you (yeah right)

1. Water into wine is a miracle of Jesus, not magic.
2. St. Francis did have a gift from God. Spells and other occult practices are not gifts from God.
3. The miracles done by Jesus in the Bible are not, I say again, not demonic.

Your “logical explanation” is that you are mixing apples and screwdrivers and calling them the same and equal.

Comprende?

1. So then, define a miracle. And explain to me how it is different than what some people call magic.
2. what some people call occult practices, others call gifts. Explain then the ability of some people to know future events, or the psychics who can “see” kidnapped victims and help police to solve mysteries, and faith healers who can heal those who are terminally ill. Are these occult practices or gifts from God?
3. Obviously, the miracles done by Jesus are not demonic.

And Si, yo comprendo. I was making the point in my original post that the responses were not logical. Faith based solely on faith isn’t really faith, it is indoctrination. To be able to have faith, you must understand and truly believe. Otherwise, your faith is simply hollow words.

 

[mangy_dog]

1. So then, define a miracle. And explain to me how it is different than what some people call magic.
2. what some people call occult practices, others call gifts. Explain then the ability of some people to know future events, or the psychics who can “see” kidnapped victims and help police to solve mysteries, and faith healers who can heal those who are terminally ill. Are these occult practices or gifts from God?
3. Obviously, the miracles done by Jesus are not demonic.

And Si, yo comprendo. I was making the point in my original post that the responses were not logical. Faith based solely on faith isn’t really faith, it is indoctrination. To be able to have faith, you must understand and truly believe. Otherwise, your faith is simply hollow words.

The suspending of the natural laws by God are miracles.

Call occult practices what you will. They are demonic in origin and are incompatible with the Sound Doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Faith, you poor soul, is not indoctrination. Faith will not be needed in heaven because we will see. Where there is sight faith is not needed.

I don’t need to see miracles to know that they are of God. And the gift of discernment - a Gift of the Holy Spirit - allow one to recognize the wickedness and snares of the devil.

The so called “prediction of the future” is a hoax perpetrated by the demons on the perception of the poor souls that fall prey to their lies.

I pray that you will come to the source of grace which is Jesus Christ…your poor soul needs Him and not all this new age occultism.

Good bye and God Bless.

 

[NoWings]

A “spell” is a petition to a specific aspect of the Divine to invoke a change. The same as a prayer is a petition to the Divine to invoke a change. There is no difference. I have no power other than what I was gifted with at birth by the Divine. I have never claimed otherwise.

I’m going to have to agree with this part. That’s why I spout off that there is nothing in paganism that doesn’t have an equal counterpart in apostolic Christianity.

The difference is the source. Pagans (I’m using this as an umbrella term at this point) believe that “magic” is a natural or supernormal part of the universe. Christians believe that “acts of God” are God’s own Majesty suspending the normal rules of nature while thinking that pagans receive their power from dark influences. Pagans then respond with ‘no we don’t,’ and so on.

Practically, there is no difference.

 

[NoWings]

You “equate” occult/pagan terms and ideas to the sacred…this is blasphemy.

The Church didn’t seem to have a problem appropriating pagan holidays and traditions to redefine them in a Christian sense.

 

[gmcbroom]

The so called “prediction of the future” is a hoax perpetrated by the demons on the perception of the poor souls that fall prey to their lies.-mangy dog

That statement above is the only reason I struggle with the Book of Revelation. I have no choice but to accept it; as it is in the Bible. However, I take it on faith.

My fathers’ response when I brought up the Book of Revelation and Book of Genesis as a kid is this," What is a Day to God?" I thought I was being clever by bringing up geology and evolution. Lol, he blew that out of the water.

As for faith I got this from Dictionary.com.

    faith  /feɪθ/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [feyth]  Show IPA

Use faith in a Sentence
See web results for faith
See images of faith
–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one’s promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

HTH

—Idiom9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

---

Origin:
1200–50; ME feith < AF fed, OF feid, feit < L fidem, acc. of fidēs trust, akin to fīdere to trust. See confide

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

A “spell” is a petition to a specific aspect of the Divine to invoke a change. The same as a prayer is a petition to the Divine to invoke a change. There is no difference. I have no power other than what I was gifted with at birth by the Divine. I have never claimed otherwise.

Just one question: What is this “Divine”? :ehh: Frankly, by reading your post, it sounds a lot more like the Force from Star Wars than a sentient, omnipotent deity.

 

[AnAtheist]

I’m going to have to agree with this part. That’s why I spout off that there is nothing in paganism that doesn’t have an equal counterpart in apostolic Christianity.

The difference is the source. Pagans (I’m using this as an umbrella term at this point) believe that “magic” is a natural or supernormal part of the universe. Christians believe that “acts of God” are God’s own Majesty suspending the normal rules of nature while thinking that pagans receive their power from dark influences. Pagans then respond with ‘no we don’t,’ and so on.

Practically, there is no difference.

Absolutely.
Furthermore for pagans, gods are also part of the world not something “greater”. This becomes clear when you look at their creation myths that all start with the world giving birth to itself out of nothing (in Greek: Chaos turned into Gäa, Tartaros, and Okeanos; in Norse: Ginnungagap turned into Muspelheim and Niflheim), the gods came much later then.
Interesting enough, this corresponds well with the modern, scientific view of how the universe started. Perhaps our ancestors had a clearer vision or better gut feeling of how the world is really constructed before superstitions from the Middle East put Europe into the Dark Ages.

Besides, there are a lot of Neopagans who don’t believe in magic at all, respectively magic is a form of meditation to them. But then for some Christian geeks meditation (like in Zen e.g.) is demonic too…

 

[mangy_dog]

The Church didn’t seem to have a problem appropriating pagan holidays and traditions to redefine them in a Christian sense.

Someone had to sanctify the dates usurped and profaned by paganism. Who better to be up to the task than the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It brought the minds of the faithful back to the idea that it is a holy day - a day that the Lord had made.

 

[crazzeto]

A “spell” is a petition to a specific aspect of the Divine to invoke a change. The same as a prayer is a petition to the Divine to invoke a change. There is no difference. I have no power other than what I was gifted with at birth by the Divine. I have never claimed otherwise.

Well, here’s what I’m seeing about witchcraft which is what you’re talking about
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(paranormal)#Witchcraft

Often linked to magical beliefs and practices, witchcraft is a means for people to magically affect the world around them through various spells, rituals or even desires, in either a harmful or benevolent way. The ability to perform witchcraft is sometimes viewed as a biological trait and is sometimes said to be an acquired skill. In relation, sorcery is generally seen as the manipulation of magic. The intent behind witchcraft has been the object of much debate. Historically, witchcraft has been cited as the source of tragedy or misfortune in communities. Occasionally, as in the case of the Salem witch trials,[34] social or economic strain can manifest in witchcraft accusations, suggesting that it is sometimes the alleged witch who is actually innocent. Many witches, moreover, claim to practice white magic, which is a benevolent form of the craft.

Here are Wiccan beliefs on magic
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca#Magic

Wiccans believe in magic that can be manipulated through the form of witchcraft or sorcery. Some spell it as “magick”, a term coined by occultist Aleister Crowley, though this spelling is more commonly associated with the religion of Thelema than Wicca. Wiccans cast spells during ritual practices inside a sacred circle, in an attempt to bring about real changes (which are further explained in the “Ritual practices” section). Common Wiccan spells include those used for healing, for love, for fertility, or to banish negative influences.[29]

Many Wiccans agree with the definition of magic offered by ceremonial magicians.[30] Aleister Crowley, for instance, declared that magic was “the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will”, and MacGregor Mathers stated that it was “the science of the control of the secret forces of nature”.[30] Wiccans believe magic to be a law of nature, as yet misunderstood by contemporary science.[30] Other Wiccans do not claim to know how magic works, merely believing that it does because they have seen it work for them.[27]

Many early Wiccans, such as Alex Sanders and Doreen Valiente, referred to their own magic as “white magic”, which contrasted with “black magic”, which they associated with evil and Satanism. Some modern Wiccans however have stopped using this terminology, arguing that the colour black should not have any associations with evil.[31]

The scholars of religion, Rodney Stark and William Bainbridge, claimed, in 1985, that Wicca had “reacted to secularization by a headlong plunge back into magic” and that it was a reactionary religion which would soon die out. This view was heavily criticised in 1999 by the historian Ronald Hutton, who claimed that the evidence displayed the very opposite, that “a large number [of Wiccans] were in jobs at the cutting edge [of scientific culture], such as computer technology.”[27]

How does this in anyway, relate to prayers for intercession and grace? In fact, it doesnt’.

I was raised and baptized into the Baptist church. But the sheer hypocrisy of it all just turned my stomach. My sister-in-law is Catholic, my mother-in-law is Methodist, my father-in-law was Lutheran, my brother- and sister-in-laws are Evangelical, and my husband is an eclectic Christian. I think I have a fairly good grasp of Christianity.

I bolded the part which I beleive is most significant, it really sounds to me a lot like you’re trying to just tear down Christian beliefs due to bad experiences in your baptist church. What exactly these were, I’m not sure. Whatever happend, it doesn’t make your assertions true, they are quite false in fact.

I am an instrument of the Divine, the same as any other person on Earth. I ask, I never demand. I do not invoke anything. I will not willing harm another living creature. I bless my home for the protection from evil, I pray for my family, and for others in need. I give willingly to those who have less than I. I heal those who ask, either by giving a shoulder to lean on or with herbs and prayer. I have taught my children right from wrong, same as any Christian parent. And I have lively debates around a bonfire with my Christian friends. And I live, knowing I am unworthy yet I am still loved beyond measure by the Divine.

And that probably makes me the strangest witch you will ever meet.

And if you want to do this in a manner consitant with the will of God, and not be manipulated by evil I would suggest looking back into Christianity rather than Wicca which dates back, essentially to the 1950’s. New age won’t take you any where you want to go, I realize you had a bad experience in the Baptist Church, so I suggest this. Make it a point to start just by learning as much as you can about the bible. I’m not talking just reading it expecting the holy spirit will just come to you and just make you understand it all, it’s not going to happen. Apply scholarship to it, learn about history, learn about the culture of the people who wrote the bible and the people about whom it is written.

Read the Fathers (church Fathers), read the other early Christian works.

 

[AnAtheist]

Someone had to sanctify the dates usurped and profaned by paganism.

Usurped from whom?

 

[mangy_dog]

Usurped from whom?

It’s in the sauce…

 

[CesarAugustus]

Absolutely.
But then for some Christian geeks meditation (like in Zen e.g.) is demonic too…

No, meditation isn’t something for Christians, because it deals with a cosmology in opposition of the Christian ones, and in fact, Buddhism has more in common with Gnosticism

The Gnostic teaching is about finding the salvation in your own mind (the light of the Barbelo hidden deep into the evil human body), and Christianity is about the salvation in Jesus Christ

And what is meditation in the eastern sense?

Ah, yes, introspection to get into the Nirvana (in Gnosticism that was called Pleroma)

God Bless You !!!

 

[heartwood010]

I see I will need to explain a bit further. IMHO, Crowley was a crackpot who just wanted to get laid. And he was willing to use whatever means necessary to do so.

I was raised as a Baptist. I was joyful in the love of God and was baptized into the Church when I was 12. By the time I was 16, we had a bit of infighting in our church (as happens quite often in Baptist churches) and the pastor left. The church was left without a pastor for about half a year while new pastors were interviewed. It was during this time, the feeling of sanctity left the church and so did I. I spent quite some time visiting other churches, Baptist and several other protestant denominations, trying to find the Divine Presence and was unsuccessful. That was when I realized that you can find the Divine in everything around you, if you just look for it. A church is just a building (I expect to be flamed on this) where people can congregate to praise and worship and learn. And I also realized that I didn’t have to be in a specific place to praise and worship the Divine.

I am not your classic Neo-Pagan Wiccan, and I am not a Bible scholar. What I am is more of a spiritualist with non-conformist beliefs. I have found that there is “truth” to be found in many different religions and that the only real requirement is through Jesus. I do not judge others because I do not wish to be judged. I know that any affect I many cause through “spellcasting” ( I do not like this term, btw) is because it is the will of the Divine.

If that makes me Evil in the eyes of the church, well, I reconciled myself to that a long time ago. I do not have to be loved by the Church, only by the Divine. My faith is between me and the Divine, and is, quite frankly, no one else’s business.

I did not join this forum to tear down anyone else’s beliefs, I do not want to upset or confuse any one. I joined to ask questions, provide a different point of view, and perhaps learn something in the process. I am confident in my faith but not so closed minded or arrogant to believe that I know everything.

I do have a problem with people who believe that anything out of the ordinary or not directly expressed in the Bible is Satanic. It is that type of attitude that causes dissension, distrust, and sometimes hatred. I am a firm believer in “Love thy neighbor”. Hatred and fear causes far more bloodshed than is necessary. If we could all just take a closer look at others, we would find that we really aren’t all that different.

 

[mangy_dog]

I grow bored with this thread.

May God grant you all the grace to follow His Will and not that of the world.

Amen.

 

[debradee]

I grow bored with this thread.

May God grant you all the grace to follow His Will and not that of the world.

Amen.

I agree. My brain can’t take anymore…Great debate though.

 

[heartwood010]

May God grant you all the grace to follow His Will and not that of the world.

Amen.

And you as well.

 

[Janet1983]

Most of the Wiccas and Pagans I know are way beyond 30.

Well in comparison to Christianity they have a lot of new members from among the teenagers coming into their faith… But yes, there are quite a few adults too… Somebody I know is married to a pagan woman whose parents are pagans too… He fell in love with her and he loves her very much, but he is a Christian…
In many cases teenagers take on the religion of their parents and there are only few kids who actually become Christians without their parents being Christians themselves. There are however many teenagers who become adherents of the wiccan or the pagan religion without their parents leading them there…

Burn them like in the good old days?

As if that is going to help them to obtain salvation… They did burn heretics too… Well I’d rather pass on that one…

 

[NoWings]

Someone had to sanctify the dates usurped and profaned by paganism. Who better to be up to the task than the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It brought the minds of the faithful back to the idea that it is a holy day - a day that the Lord had made.

What?

You can’t usurp a holiday that’s yours to begin with.

 

[masha]

I hope I haven’t missed anything too major, I only skimmed some of the posts.

I think that neo-paganism is popular, in part, because much of modern Christianity has lost its sense of mystery. This is especially damaging in the American Catholic church, where we often have Catholic theology and Puritan culture. The two cannot co-exist without damage to the Catholic spirit. When people are Catholic without a Catholic imagination, then they may have the theology, but it doesn’t make sense spiritually. That’s why we have so many Catholics who don’t believe in the True Presence - because it is magic and mystery and miracle.

When people have a Catholic imagination that is not nourished in their church (whether Catholic or protestant) they look for a faith that will nourish it, and neo-paganish does, because it believes, as the church does, that all things are possible, and that the world we see is not the only one.

I think that Heartwood is right when he (or she, sorry!) compares prayers and spells. That doesn’t mean that it’s lawful for us to cast spells, that sort of magic belongs to our past, we’ve moved beyond it. But it isn’t invoking demons either; neo-pagan spells are essentially prayers, they don’t believe that they are little gods carrying all the power within themselves, but that they are vessels, as priests are vessels for the divine in all things to pass through and come out again in a directed way. The idea behind pagan spells is fine, just the manner of them and the focus of worship is off. We have a lot more in common with Paganism that we’d like to believe, and when we run from our pagan roots, it just looks all the more attractive in the distance.

I hope this makes sense, I tried not to run on and on, but I may have missed something essential in explaining my postition, if so, I’m sorry, tell me and I’ll try to clarify.

 

[crazzeto]

I see I will need to explain a bit further. IMHO, Crowley was a crackpot who just wanted to get laid. And he was willing to use whatever means necessary to do so.

I was raised as a Baptist. I was joyful in the love of God and was baptized into the Church when I was 12. By the time I was 16, we had a bit of infighting in our church (as happens quite often in Baptist churches) and the pastor left. The church was left without a pastor for about half a year while new pastors were interviewed. It was during this time, the feeling of sanctity left the church and so did I. I spent quite some time visiting other churches, Baptist and several other protestant denominations, trying to find the Divine Presence and was unsuccessful. That was when I realized that you can find the Divine in everything around you, if you just look for it. A church is just a building (I expect to be flamed on this) where people can congregate to praise and worship and learn. And I also realized that I didn’t have to be in a specific place to praise and worship the Divine.

Right here, I this is what I understand as what happend.

Basically you felt betrayed by your early belief system. Because of this, I think you might in some way be trying to find some way of hurting it back. So you’ve turned to neo-peganism, but integrated it with your old Christian belief, this of course is sacraligious and wrong. I would suggest this, rather than continuing down this path… Go ahead and study Christian history as I suggested earlier. Read the historical record, read from historians like Josephus. Also read the early church fathers, and attempt to disern what it is they believed. Read the Bible, and reconcile the Fathers with the Bible. The reason why I suggest this, is because the Fathers were taught by Christ’s own apostles, to suggest these guy’s had it wrong in the first 2 or 3 generations of the faith is rather incredulas.

Next investigate the faiths today, try to figure out which one most closely follows the beliefs of the early Christians. I would suggest to you, that if you do this the following will happen:

1. You will very quickly shed your self of your Neo-Pegan beliefs
2. I suggest you will find your self in the Roman Catholic Church, or at the very least Orthodox.

I am not your classic Neo-Pagan Wiccan, and I am not a Bible scholar. What I am is more of a spiritualist with non-conformist beliefs. I have found that there is “truth” to be found in many different religions and that the only real requirement is through Jesus. I do not judge others because I do not wish to be judged. I know that any affect I many cause through “spellcasting” ( I do not like this term, btw) is because it is the will of the Divine.

Well this is the tricky bit… In a sense, you are correct. There is some truth to be found there. This doesn’t bring legitimacy to neo-pegan beliefs, all it means is they are not 100% wrong. Just like, between 95% and 99% wrong.

If that makes me Evil in the eyes of the church, well, I reconciled myself to that a long time ago. I do not have to be loved by the Church, only by the Divine. My faith is between me and the Divine, and is, quite frankly, no one else’s business.

It doesn’t make you evil in the eyes of the church, it does however mean you are walking down the wrong path which we all find sad. None of us, including “the church” want to see someone walking down the wrong path like this, because it almost certainly won’t lead to eternal life which is what we all want for you. So please don’t take anything in this debate as a judgment, after all none of us on earth, not even the church has the authority to judge your soul.

I did not join this forum to tear down anyone else’s beliefs, I do not want to upset or confuse any one. I joined to ask questions, provide a different point of view, and perhaps learn something in the process. I am confident in my faith but not so closed minded or arrogant to believe that I know everything.

I’m glad you did join, and I’m glad you have been willing to continue debating with us, and discussing your faith views. Particularly since I do firmly believe you are walking down the wrong path. It is my hope, and greatest prayer that everyone walking down the wrong path would find their way to the light of the Truth of Jesus Christ.

I do have a problem with people who believe that anything out of the ordinary or not directly expressed in the Bible is Satanic. It is that type of attitude that causes dissension, distrust, and sometimes hatred. I am a firm believer in “Love thy neighbor”. Hatred and fear causes far more bloodshed than is necessary. If we could all just take a closer look at others, we would find that we really aren’t all that different.

It’s not all Satanic, but it’s also not theological truth. It is certainly my firm belief that only Christianity has the truth, and most specifically only the RCC has the fullest expression of truth on earth. With regard to why you are being warned, it’s because your specific belief set leaves you quite vunerable to Satanic influence. Belief in the occult makes you extrodenarly open to influences not of God.