The problem with mortal and venial sins

[TheAdvocate]

Here is the problem with mortal and venial sins: somewhere there is a line that divides the two. That line must be pretty thin sometimes. Anyway, if you’re on the wrong side of that line (let’s call it the “right” side), you are looking at eternal damnation if you die that way unrepentant. A little to the left of the line, and you wind up in purgatory, and ultimately, therefore, in heaven.

For example, let’s say that you intentionally steal a dollar from an old lady. Heck, let’s make it a penny. You’re at her house, and you notice a shinny penny on her desk, and you say to yourself, “I like pennies. This one is from 1953. An old penny. I like it. I want it. I’ll take it.” And you do. Wrong, yes. But would anyone call this sin mortal? The same if it were a dollar. Wrong, sinful, but not mortally so.

Now, let’s say that behind her desk you notice a safe, and you happen to know that there are thousands of dollars inside. So, you wait a couple of months as you plot a heist. Finally, you do break into her home, and steal the safe. Inside: $10,000. The old lady, by the way, is no millionaire. She just foolishly trusted you and happened to mention that she was saving up for a car for her grandson–a sort of parting gift to remember her by.

Ok, it seems to me that everyone can agree that the $10,000 theft is grave matter.

So a penny or dollar is not, but 10k is. Where is the dividing line? You must believe in a dividing line, of course. At some point, the amount of the money stolen constitutes grave matter. Only God knows for sure.

Let’s say that it’s $200 that makes the theft mortally sinful. (But you can make it any number you want. Want to make it $40? Fine. $400? Fine also. Just pick a number.) That would mean that, theoretically, $199.99 would land you in purgatory, whereas $200 would land you in hell, provided that in both cases the person in question died unrepentant.

Do you disagree? You still think $199.99 would land him in hell, too? Ok, then find that magic number, then deduct a penny (or a dollar). My point? There has to be line somewhere. And that extremely thin line separates one between eternal damnation in hell, and a hope-filled stay in purgatory, which of course, ultimately mean heaven.

And at least theoretically, that does not seem fair.

 

[Bookcat]

With “theft” there can be various aspects --such as that yes can make something that would ordinarily be said to be light into being grave-- ie stealing a small amount from a homeless person perhaps.

Or a particular penny is worth a great deal to me cause it was given to me by my grandma when I was 3.

Mortal sin still though is very different from venial sin.
**
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI**

395. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

396. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

and CCC scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#III

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Here is the problem with mortal and venial sins: somewhere there is a line that divides the two. That line must be pretty thin sometimes. Anyway, if you’re on the wrong side of that line (let’s call it the “right” side), you are looking at eternal damnation if you die that way unrepentant. A little to the left of the line, and you wind up in purgatory, and ultimately, therefore, in heaven.

For example, let’s say that you intentionally steal a dollar from an old lady. Heck, let’s make it a penny. You’re at her house, and you notice a shinny penny on her desk, and you say to yourself, “I like pennies. This one is from 1953. An old penny. I like it. I want it. I’ll take it.” And you do. Wrong, yes. But would anyone call this sin mortal? The same if it were a dollar. Wrong, sinful, but not mortally so.

Now, let’s say that behind her desk you notice a safe, and you happen to know that there are thousands of dollars inside. So, you wait a couple of months as you plot a heist. Finally, you do break into her home, and steal the safe. Inside: $10,000. The old lady, by the way, is no millionaire. She just foolishly trusted you and happened to mention that she was saving up for a car for her grandson–a sort of parting gift to remember her by.

Ok, it seems to me that everyone can agree that the $10,000 theft is grave matter.

So a penny or dollar is not, but 10k is. Where is the dividing line? You must believe in a dividing line, of course. At some point, the amount of the money stolen constitutes grave matter. Only God knows for sure.

Let’s say that it’s $200 that makes the theft mortally sinful. (But you can make it any number you want. Want to make it $40? Fine. $400? Fine also. Just pick a number.) That would mean that, theoretically, $199.99 would land you in purgatory, whereas $200 would land you in hell, provided that in both cases the person in question died unrepentant.

Do you disagree? You still think $199.99 would land him in hell, too? Ok, then find that magic number, then deduct a penny (or a dollar). My point? There has to be line somewhere. And that extremely thin line separates one between eternal damnation in hell, and a hope-filled stay in purgatory, which of course, ultimately mean heaven.

And at least theoretically, that does not seem fair.

When examining your conscience, don’t beat yourself up by nit-picking as to which is a Mortal or a Venial Sin. Confess them all!
Something I learned from the Jesuits in Parochial School over 60 years ago: “When in doubt about a sin, confess it. It’s up to the Priest to sort it out and give you an appropriate penance.”
If you try to sort them out ahead of time, you stand a good chance of fooling yourself, all the time giving Satan a hearty belly laugh - at the expense of your soul.

 

[Boccherini]

I guess you should try to use your religion to try to become as good and saintly as possible, not just to avoid sin.

From a non Catholic perspective, a bigger problem is that a person can have the bad luck to die before he can confess his sins or even repent, and then he goes to Hell. E.g. if someone gives into the temptation to look at pornography and a stray bullet comes in and kills him, or the hotel he’s in is blown up by terrorists. He might never have done it before, and he might be good in other ways, but he dies in a state of mortal sin. Maybe I’ve misunderstood something somewhere.

 

[fred_conty]

I guess you should try to use your religion to try to become as good and saintly as possible, not just to avoid sin.

From a non Catholic perspective, a bigger problem is that a person can have the bad luck to die before he can confess his sins or even repent, and then he goes to Hell. E.g. if someone gives into the temptation to look at pornography and a stray bullet comes in and kills him, or the hotel he’s in is blown up by terrorists. He might never have done it before, and he might be good in other ways, but he dies in a state of mortal sin. Maybe I’ve misunderstood something somewhere.

No you are quite right. Jesus warned us that death is like a thief that comes in the night quite unexpectedly. So we need always to be prepared.

Just a thought.

 

[MilesVitae]

Here is the problem with mortal and venial sins: somewhere there is a line that divides the two. That line must be pretty thin sometimes. Anyway, if you’re on the wrong side of that line (let’s call it the “right” side), you are looking at eternal damnation if you die that way unrepentant. A little to the left of the line, and you wind up in purgatory, and ultimately, therefore, in heaven.

For example, let’s say that you intentionally steal a dollar from an old lady. Heck, let’s make it a penny. You’re at her house, and you notice a shinny penny on her desk, and you say to yourself, “I like pennies. This one is from 1953. An old penny. I like it. I want it. I’ll take it.” And you do. Wrong, yes. But would anyone call this sin mortal? The same if it were a dollar. Wrong, sinful, but not mortally so.

Now, let’s say that behind her desk you notice a safe, and you happen to know that there are thousands of dollars inside. So, you wait a couple of months as you plot a heist. Finally, you do break into her home, and steal the safe. Inside: $10,000. The old lady, by the way, is no millionaire. She just foolishly trusted you and happened to mention that she was saving up for a car for her grandson–a sort of parting gift to remember her by.

Ok, it seems to me that everyone can agree that the $10,000 theft is grave matter.

So a penny or dollar is not, but 10k is. Where is the dividing line? You must believe in a dividing line, of course. At some point, the amount of the money stolen constitutes grave matter. Only God knows for sure.

Let’s say that it’s $200 that makes the theft mortally sinful. (But you can make it any number you want. Want to make it $40? Fine. $400? Fine also. Just pick a number.) That would mean that, theoretically, $199.99 would land you in purgatory, whereas $200 would land you in hell, provided that in both cases the person in question died unrepentant.

Do you disagree? You still think $199.99 would land him in hell, too? Ok, then find that magic number, then deduct a penny (or a dollar). My point? There has to be line somewhere. And that extremely thin line separates one between eternal damnation in hell, and a hope-filled stay in purgatory, which of course, ultimately mean heaven.

And at least theoretically, that does not seem fair.

This only applies to certain kinds of issues, though. After all, there are sins which do not involve such a scale of gravity. That is, certain actions are intrinsically grave - fornication, adultery, blasphemy, direct killing of an innocent person, etc. There is no scale on which some acts of fornication or direct killing of an innocent person are venial matter and some are grave - there is no line between a venial act of fornication and a grave act of fornication, for instance. (That being said, there is perhaps more “grey area” in the other two conditions for mortal sin, knowledge and consent. Also, of course, this doesn’t mean that all murders are equal in gravity, even if they are all grave - murder against a family member is more serious than murder of a stranger, even if they are both grave matter).

Now, as to the kind of situation you are talking about - it’s an interesting observation. I’ll wait see what others say have to say about it. I would say, however, that the fact that there’s some vagueness in determining “the line,” that doesn’t mean there aren’t cases of grave theft and non-grave theft (though I’m not sure if that was an implication of your argument) - just that it can be hard to determine in some cases (as with other vague predicates - big, small, cold, hot, etc.).

 

[MilesVitae]

I guess you should try to use your religion to try to become as good and saintly as possible, not just to avoid sin.

From a non Catholic perspective, a bigger problem is that a person can have the bad luck to die before he can confess his sins or even repent, and then he goes to Hell. E.g. if someone gives into the temptation to look at pornography and a stray bullet comes in and kills him, or the hotel he’s in is blown up by terrorists. He might never have done it before, and he might be good in other ways, but he dies in a state of mortal sin. Maybe I’ve misunderstood something somewhere.

It isn’t just bad luck, though - though I grasp the force of your point. It’s always important to remember that the person who commits a mortal sin hasn’t just messed up, made a mistake - they have freely done something they know to be incompatible with goodness, something morally evil. The reality of the free choice of the matter is always important to keep in mind.