The problem with omniscience, free will and Jesus/prophecy

[Bahman]

The problem with omniscience, free will and Jesus/prophecy

To complete the argument we need agree on following definitions/facts:

First, Jesus is God hence has omniscience. Prophets in another hand have access to omniscience.
Second, Omniscience is the capacity to know all true things that there is to know.
Third, Free will is the ability to choose between at least two options.

There is a serious conflict between these three items so they could not exist with each other at the same time since we could have always asked Jesus/prophet about our actions in early future and do opposite of what they claim which means that omniscience is a delusion. Free will is a delusion if we cannot do otherwise.

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

The Son of God is the self-knowledge of God. But if you know yourself, you know everything. Only God has self-knowledge. Son of God = omniscience of God.

The inward Jesus is Son of God. The outward Jesus is Son of Man, the promised prophet.
Heathens worship the outward Jesus, the prophet hanged on a tree, as God. Heathens shall take the man of sin, the son of perdition, for Christ

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2.4)

In doing the above he will merely confirm the belief of billions, namely that Jesus = God. Gehenna of a long time lingereth not, and damnation slumbereth not. We live in hell right now. A few wake up in the 7th day at the end of the 6th, most die the second death by dreaming the very nightmare they fell asleep in.

 

[Mark1124]

The problem with omniscience, free will and Jesus/prophecy

To complete the argument we need agree on following definitions/facts:

First, Jesus is God hence has omniscience. Prophets in another hand have access to omniscience.
Second, Omniscience is the capacity to know all true things that there is to know.
Third, Free will is the ability to choose between at least two options.

There is a serious conflict between these three items so they could not exist with each other at the same time since we could have always asked Jesus/prophet about our actions in early future and do opposite of what they claim which means that omniscience is a delusion. Free will is a delusion if we cannot do otherwise.

There is no conflict. Just because Jesus knows what you are going to do five minutes from now doesn’t mean He has to tell you when He is asked. And prophets only have access to some of God’s knowledge, not all of it; they probably couldn’t tell you what you are going to do five minutes from now even if they wanted to.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Again!! Turn the record over, that tune is worn out!
’

Linus2nd

 

[ServantPD]

The problem with omniscience, free will and Jesus/prophecy

To complete the argument we need agree on following definitions/facts:

First, Jesus is God hence has omniscience. Prophets in another hand have access to omniscience.
Second, Omniscience is the capacity to know all true things that there is to know.
Third, Free will is the ability to choose between at least two options.

There is a serious conflict between these three items so they could not exist with each other at the same time since we could have always asked Jesus/prophet about our actions in early future and do opposite of what they claim which means that omniscience is a delusion. Free will is a delusion if we cannot do otherwise.

If God reveals us some prophecy, it isn’t directly related to our own will, but to His will on what event He wants to make it happen. We may have free will, but if it goes against a will that God reveals and He intends them to happen, then His will is put over yours and your free will will be more limited than usual. You may ask God or the prophets or whoever what you will do in the future, and they’ll give you a non-answer, because you have no need of knowing, even though the former may know exactly what’s more probable of what choices you will make. But ask them what God wants you to do, and they’ll give you a straight answer.

Does that mean that our free will is a delusion? No, it means that the One that has the power of giving us freedom or taking it away from us decides that certain events should not be interfered with the freedom He gave to us, and He’ll take it away from us until His will is accomplished. I think it’s perfectly fine…

This isn’t the story of Edipus and the prophecy in Delphi… Don’t generalize the word prophecy with the other ways it is used, and for God’s sake read the actual prophetic books. They’re nothing like you’re implicitly arguing that they are.

 

[dmar198]

The problem with omniscience, free will and Jesus/prophecy

To complete the argument we need agree on following definitions/facts:

First, Jesus is God hence has omniscience. Prophets in another hand have access to omniscience.
Second, Omniscience is the capacity to know all true things that there is to know.
Third, Free will is the ability to choose between at least two options.

There is a serious conflict between these three items so they could not exist with each other at the same time since we could have always asked Jesus/prophet about our actions in early future and do opposite of what they claim which means that omniscience is a delusion. Free will is a delusion if we cannot do otherwise.

If you present your argument in the form of a syllogism it becomes clearer where it falls apart.

1. Free will means we can choose between X and Y.
2. God’s omniscience implies that we will choose X.
3. These are incompatible.

The conclusion does not follow from the premises because the fact that you WILL do X does not mean that you COULDN’T do Y.

 

[Back2Church]

we could have always asked Jesus/prophet about our actions in early future and do opposite of what they claim

The problem with your argument is that in order for the person to do the opposite, they first need to be given this divine knowledge of the future. An omniscient being will obviously know the intention of the person asking for such knowledge. God only reveals His divine knowledge to us when it suits His will and purpose. What the person intends to do with this knowledge doesn’t suit God’s will, so the knowledge would never be given. Where’s the contradiction?

 

[Bahman]

There is no conflict. Just because Jesus knows what you are going to do five minutes from now doesn’t mean He has to tell you when He is asked. And prophets only have access to some of God’s knowledge, not all of it; they probably couldn’t tell you what you are going to do five minutes from now even if they wanted to.

Why not? I ask this as a proof of Jesus being God, or as a proof that omniscience or free will is a delusion.

 

[Bahman]

If you present your argument in the form of a syllogism it becomes clearer where it falls apart.

1. Free will means we can choose between X and Y.
2. God’s omniscience implies that we will choose X.
3. These are incompatible.

The conclusion does not follow from the premises because the fact that you WILL do X does not mean that you COULDN’T do Y.

There are two cases:

1. I am revealed that I do X instead of Y
2. I wish to do Y and do Y
3. Omniscience is a delusion
4. I am revealed that I do X instead of Y
5. I wish to do Y but I do X
6. Free will is a delusion

 

[Bahman]

The problem with your argument is that in order for the person to do the opposite, they first need to be given this divine knowledge of the future. An omniscient being will obviously know the intention of the person asking for such knowledge. God only reveals His divine knowledge to us when it suits His will and purpose. What the person intends to do with this knowledge doesn’t suit God’s will, so the knowledge would never be given. Where’s the contradiction?

God cannot claim that it has a power which revealing it leads to contradiction. Moreover I declare my intention that I need this knowledge to assure myself that either omniscience or free will is a delusion. What would be more important thing in our life to realize that we have free will or not? What would be more important thing in our life that the God who we worship is really what it claims.

 

[Bahman]

If God reveals us some prophecy, it isn’t directly related to our own will, but to His will on what event He wants to make it happen. We may have free will, but if it goes against a will that God reveals and He intends them to happen, then His will is put over yours and your free will will be more limited than usual. You may ask God or the prophets or whoever what you will do in the future, and they’ll give you a non-answer, because you have no need of knowing, even though the former may know exactly what’s more probable of what choices you will make. But ask them what God wants you to do, and they’ll give you a straight answer.

This is an important question about faith whether we are responsible for our action or omniscience is false. Jesus is God hence he has omniscience so I would have asked whether he knows my action or not. He cannot declare that he has a power that declaring it leads to contradiction.

Does that mean that our free will is a delusion? No, it means that the One that has the power of giving us freedom or taking it away from us decides that certain events should not be interfered with the freedom He gave to us, and He’ll take it away from us until His will is accomplished. I think it’s perfectly fine…

We are not talking about our will versus God will.

 

[ServantPD]

This is an important question about faith whether we are responsible for our action or omniscience is false. Jesus is God hence he has omniscience so I would have asked whether he knows my action or not. He cannot declare that he has a power that declaring it leads to contradiction.

The responsability of our action depends on wheter God intervened for it to happen or not, as He revealed that in His omniscience, the event X is better than Y, and he’ll limit your free will if it conflicts His (and having Him some type of will in which He needs to limit the freedom of others is waaaaaaay too rare to assert that our free will is a delusion, but it’s occasionally compromised for a greater good). You can’t say that the actions of Elijah (1 Kings 17-19) are entirely his will, but the will of God which he wanted to comply

We are not talking about our will versus God will.

Well, your problem derives from the fact that you’re not really understanding what is revelation… You’re not getting that the apparent conflict you’re stating comes from just that.

This is a false dichotomy. Our free will depends on wheter He wants it to be granted or compromised. It isn’t permanent, it can change temporarily.
I don’t think this is a problem of omniscience, but omnipotence (even if it’s a false problem). He knows all there is to know, but that doesn’t mean He will make His will so close-minded that He won’t let us choose our actions most of the time (that wouldn’t be benevolent). But there are times we can choose, and there are times where we cannot.

 

[Back2Church]

Moreover I declare my intention that I need this knowledge to assure myself that either omniscience or free will is a delusion.

But don’t you see? In your proposed scenario, if God gave you the requested knowledge, it would violate your free will, not assure it. You are free to act in any way you choose, but once you have this knowledge you are no longer free.

If you want to be assured of God’s presence, use your free will to pray every day. Eventually all that prayer will open your heart to His presence. Once that happens, there’s no going back. You’ll have your assurance!

 

[Bahman]

The responsability of our action depends on wheter God intervened for it to happen or not, as He revealed that in His omniscience, the event X is better than Y, and he’ll limit your free will if it conflicts His (and having Him some type of will in which He needs to limit the freedom of others is waaaaaaay too rare to assert that our free will is a delusion, but it’s occasionally compromised for a greater good). You can’t say that the actions of Elijah (1 Kings 17-19) are entirely his will, but the will of God which he wanted to comply

Well, your problem derives from the fact that you’re not really understanding what is revelation… You’re not getting that the apparent conflict you’re stating comes from just that.

This is a false dichotomy. Our free will depends on wheter He wants it to be granted or compromised. It isn’t permanent, it can change temporarily.
I don’t think this is a problem of omniscience, but omnipotence (even if it’s a false problem). He knows all there is to know, but that doesn’t mean He will make His will so close-minded that He won’t let us choose our actions most of the time (that wouldn’t be benevolent). But there are times we can choose, and there are times where we cannot.

The basic idea is that omniscience is claimed to not be subject of change in another hand it could be subject to change if we have knowledge of it. I am sorry but our focus on this thread is not God will versus our free will. Moreover I don’t think if God will can be overpower than our free will as far as we have consciousness to what we are wishing to do.

 

[Bahman]

But don’t you see? In your proposed scenario, if God gave you the requested knowledge, it would violate your free will, not assure it. You are free to act in any way you choose, but once you have this knowledge you are no longer free.

This means my free will is completely ceased to exist by sole knowledge of omniscience about my whole life hence it either did not exist at first place or what you are claiming is wrong and omniscience could change since I can at least in one occasion do opposite of what I am told. We know well that knowledge could affect the outcome of a decision on a situation but it could not affect free will.

 

[Back2Church]

This means my free will is completely ceased to exist by sole knowledge of omniscience about my whole life hence it either did not exist at first place or what you are claiming is wrong and omniscience could change since I can at least in one occasion do opposite of what I am told. We know well that knowledge could affect the outcome of a decision on a situation but it could not affect free will.

You’re over-thinking this. It’s actually pretty simple.

If you say, “I will do this or that, whichever God says I will not do,” then you have put God in the position of violating your free will. The very nature of your argument discards the free will of the individual at the onset. You cannot argue against the existence of free will by forming an argument in which you throw away your free will.

We have free will precisely because we don’t have God’s knowledge of the future. That’s why He keeps it from us. Once we have that knowledge, our free will is compromised.

 

[ServantPD]

The basic idea is that omniscience is claimed to not be subject of change in another hand it could be subject to change if we have knowledge of it.

Well what does God know? He knows what choices we have, what outcomes will come from those choices, and what’s the most likely choice we’ll have, as He knows us better than we know ourselves. Even if I accepted that idea of omniscience for the sake of argument, it doesn’t conflict with our free will.

I am sorry but our focus on this thread is not God will versus our free will. Moreover I don’t think if God will can be overpower than our free will as far as we have consciousness to what we are wishing to do.

On the first sentence, that’s exactly what’s wrong with your argument. He knows what the future might be, and He wills some type of future to come. Once you have a grasp on the idea that I’m saying instead of dismissing it, you will easily find out that this “conflict” between free will and omniscience is false.
On the second sentence… It may be because I’m not a native English speaker, but I haven’t the faintest idea of what you just said…

 

[Bahman]

You’re over-thinking this. It’s actually pretty simple.

If you say, “I will do this or that, whichever God says I will not do,” then you have put God in the position of violating your free will.

Why? Why the knowledge of my action knowing omniscience should cease my free will? Our action is supported with knowledge but they are not completely influenced with the knowledge.

The very nature of your argument discards the free will of the individual at the onset.

It does not.

You cannot argue against the existence of free will by forming an argument in which you throw away your free will.

I am doing opposite, namely accepting free will and throw away the concept of omniscience since otherwise we are dealing with a contradiction.

We have free will precisely because we don’t have God’s knowledge of the future. That’s why He keeps it from us. Once we have that knowledge, our free will is compromised.

We have free will and having access to omniscience does not cease our free will to exist but omniscience.

 

[Bahman]

Well what does God know? He knows what choices we have, what outcomes will come from those choices, and what’s the most likely choice we’ll have, as He knows us better than we know ourselves. Even if I accepted that idea of omniscience for the sake of argument, it doesn’t conflict with our free will.

Could I have access to this knowledge striving in power of prophecy/Jesus? Can I do something opposite to what God knows striving in power of my free will? If the answers to both question is yes then omniscience is false.

 

[Back2Church]

Why? Why the knowledge of my action knowing omniscience should cease my free will? Our action is supported with knowledge but they are not completely influenced with the knowledge.

It does not.

I am doing opposite, namely accepting free will and throw away the concept of omniscience since otherwise we are dealing with a contradiction.

We have free will and having access to omniscience does not cease our free will to exist but omniscience.

You cannot make free choices if you already know the outcome. Knowing the future will affect your will, shaping and limiting it. A limited will is not a free will. In order for us to make truly free choices, we cannot have those choices influenced or directed by a controlling force.

Tell me how much free will you would have in this scenario:
You: “God, what is my future five minutes from now?”

• A handgun appears at your feet. *
  God: “I see you alive.”

In this scenario (which is clearly not in line with God’s nature), you either kill yourself just prove God was wrong (or at least that what He told you was not correct) or you obey Him. But even if you take the option of death just to prove your conviction, you still have not done so in free will. You wouldn’t have done such a thing had you not been told the future. By the very nature of your expiriment, you have backed yourself into a corner where free will is no longer a factor.