The problem with omniscience, free will and Jesus/prophecy

[shoe]

God’s “capacity to know all true things that there is to know” in advance does mean that “free will is a delusion” and that human beings are unable to change their minds about doing something. God’s attribute of omniscience does not constrict the free-will choices that human beings make; rather, God’s omniscience simply means that He’s the first One to know the choices that individuals are going to make. Nor does God’s omniscience hinder or remove the ability of individuals to make different decisions on a course of action any more than it did to hinder or remove the ability of the individuals who made their decision to post, for example, on the CAF Philosophy Forum today. If God knows ahead of time whether or not individuals are going to decide to post on the CAF Forums, how then does that make free will a “delusion?”

 

[HardRockGTR]

My impression is that the omniscience of God and free will can be reconciled, given the A-theory of time (B-theory pretty much results in determinism, e.g. no free will), with the fact that God knows all the potentialities; all the timelines, all the choices and all the decisions in every possible history that could be taken, from the random nature of elemental particles, to God’s very own choices themselves. He doesn’t know the future as a concrete, existent being. Rather, He sees, at a very moment, what each minute, possible choice could amount to.

We have free will precisely because we don’t have God’s knowledge of the future. That’s why He keeps it from us. Once we have that knowledge, our free will is compromised.

Then God’s free will is compromised?

 

[Back2Church]

Then God’s free will is compromised?

I wouldn’t assume God’s will works like ours does. Our existence is linear in time. We begin at one point and move forward in time. Past, present, and future are all separate to us. God is eternal. Not only does He have knowledge of everything at all times, but He acts at all times. Clearly we cannot think that the relationship between knowledge and will is the same for God as it is for us.

 

[HardRockGTR]

I wouldn’t assume God’s will works like ours does. Our existence is linear in time. We begin at one point and move forward in time. Past, present, and future are all separate to us. God is eternal. Not only does He have knowledge of everything at all times, but He acts at all times. Clearly we cannot think that the relationship between knowledge and will is the same for God as it is for us.

True, but you say our existence is linear. That suggests B-theory of time, thus no human free will.

 

[Bahman]

You cannot make free choices if you already know the outcome. Knowing the future will affect your will, shaping and limiting it. A limited will is not a free will. In order for us to make truly free choices, we cannot have those choices influenced or directed by a controlling force.

We can have free will having knowledge. Knowledge affect the decision not free will.

Tell me how much free will you would have in this scenario:
You: “God, what is my future five minutes from now?”

• A handgun appears at your feet. *
  God: “I see you alive.”

I would kill myself to show that God omniscience is subject to change.

In this scenario (which is clearly not in line with God’s nature), you either kill yourself just prove God was wrong (or at least that what He told you was not correct) or you obey Him. But even if you take the option of death just to prove your conviction, you still have not done so in free will. You wouldn’t have done such a thing had you not been told the future. By the very nature of your expiriment, you have backed yourself into a corner where free will is no longer a factor.

The decision is already made when I say that I would do opposite of whatever that God
declare as truth so my free will is not ceased.

 

[Bahman]

God’s “capacity to know all true things that there is to know” in advance does mean that “free will is a delusion” and that human beings are unable to change their minds about doing something. God’s attribute of omniscience does not constrict the free-will choices that human beings make; rather, God’s omniscience simply means that He’s the first One to know the choices that individuals are going to make. Nor does God’s omniscience hinder or remove the ability of individuals to make different decisions on a course of action any more than it did to hinder or remove the ability of the individuals who made their decision to post, for example, on the CAF Philosophy Forum today. If God knows ahead of time whether or not individuals are going to decide to post on the CAF Forums, how then does that make free will a “delusion?”

It does since either God foreknowledge/omniscience is true or free will. The access to God omniscience allows one to either do the opposite of knowledge which is declare or not which means that omniscience or free will is not true.

 

[Bahman]

My impression is that the omniscience of God and free will can be reconciled, given the A-theory of time (B-theory pretty much results in determinism, e.g. no free will), with the fact that God knows all the potentialities; all the timelines, all the choices and all the decisions in every possible history that could be taken, from the random nature of elemental particles, to God’s very own choices themselves. He doesn’t know the future as a concrete, existent being. Rather, He sees, at a very moment, what each minute, possible choice could amount to.

The idea behind this thread is that free will and omniscience cannot be reconciled once we have access to omniscience. You can always do the opposite what is declared to you as omniscience which means the omniscience is subject to change hence omniscience is not true, or otherwise you cannot do the opposite hence free will is not true.

 

[HardRockGTR]

The idea behind this thread is that free will and omniscience cannot be reconciled once we have access to omniscience. You can always do the opposite what is declared to you as omniscience which means the omniscience is subject to change hence omniscience is not true, or otherwise you cannot do the opposite hence free will is not true.

I think you believe that omniscience means you know the future. Rather, omniscience is more than that; it includes what can be, not just what is ought to be.

 

[Back2Church]

True, but you say our existence is linear. That suggests B-theory of time, thus no human free will.

How we experience it sure is. I don’t know about you, but from the day I was born, I have only been able to move forward in time.

 

[HardRockGTR]

How we experience it sure is. I don’t know about you, but from the day I was born, I have only been able to move forward in time.

Aaahhhh, now I get what you mean. lol

 

[ServantPD]

Could I have access to this knowledge striving in power of prophecy/Jesus?

If you don’t necessarily need to know, I don’t know what reason would God let you know…

Can I do something opposite to what God knows striving in power of my free will? If the answers to both question is yes then omniscience is false.

You’re sticking to a point I have already refuted; and God isn’t conditioned into what you think He is, and I already showed you how. Read what I write, for God’s sake… --’

 

[Bahman]

If you don’t necessarily need to know, I don’t know what reason would God let you know…

The reason for me is to show that omniscience is false, for God to show that omniscience is correct without interfering in my free will.

You’re sticking to a point I have already refuted; and God isn’t conditioned into what you think He is, and I already showed you how. Read what I write, for God’s sake… --’

I read what you said but to me God never interfere with our free will. That is you that have to show that how possibly God will could be take place in my activity without me noticing it!?

 

[Bahman]

I think you believe that omniscience means you know the future. Rather, omniscience is more than that; it includes what can be, not just what is ought to be.

There is one omniscience and that has to be true. We can say that omniscience is about what may, could or can happen hence it is not true knowledge then.