The Problem with the Presence of God

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Spock said:
Yes. God is ultimately responsible for everything. The point is - which you guy miss - that God is sovereign, God cannot be forced into something against his will. If he did NOT will something, then it would NOT happen.
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What nonsense. Either God is “forced” by our actions to maintain that bullet in existence (against his will) or he volitionally does the same thing. In the first case God is our “slave”, in the second one he is a willful participant.
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And as a sovereign, it is His right to transfer authority where He pleases. He has been pleased to increase our glory and perfection by giving us a certain amount of authority over His creation and endowing us with free will. He does indeed make Himself our slave, out of love, and wholly for our benefit. He will not demand His rights by force, so, for now, He allows us to go against His will… this does not in any way imply approval, merely tolerance.
 
In order to arrive at something, parties must accept some facts. In this instance, are the parties agreed that God is omnipresent? Are they agreed that evil is negation of good?
If they agree on these facts:
  1. God is in all places because that is what it means to be present everywhere.
  2. Evil does not exist because it is but a negation of good.
  3. It is a meaningless venture to look for God, who is all good also, in a negation or a non-existent or nothing, in short, in evil.
 
PJD1987 said:
This seemed like a Philosophy question to me, but if it doesn’t fit the criteria please feel free to direct me to the right place.

Anyhow, a group of friends got into a debate tonight about the presence of God in the midst of evil. I don’t know the answer, I don’t know that there is an answer, but I thought I’d propose it to you all to see your thoughts.

The debate is this: we were talking about evil, and if God is present where there is evil, and if God is within the souls of even Satanists, because God ultimately gives us what we want, so He’s not going to force Himself on us if we choose to reject Him…but then what does that mean overall, isn’t God everywhere, even in the worst evil? And if God isn’t everywhere, then how can He be God? Which begs the question…the state of being we call “Hell” is defined as the complete absence of God, but how can God not be in Hell if He’s God?

Someone also brought up the point that we never defined “there” in the question “Is God there?” In other words, is God within us, or around us, does it matter?

I know that’s a lot of questions, feel free to give your thoughts on one, or all, or to find fault with the questions themselves and deconstruct the whole debate. I’m very interested in your thoughts and look forward to reading what people have to say. Thank you in advance for your time and thoughts.

God bless,
Paul
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Yes, there’re only two options-either we exist with free will or we exist without it. In either case, God is necessarily an active participant because our existence depends on Him; in Him we “live and move and have our being”, to quote scripture-i.e.we don’t live and act without His maintaining/sustaining it.
 
Jenna is now 14 years old. She was born with spina bifida and a contorted body, but has a fine mind. One day while sitting on her porch in her wheel chair, she was approached by a man that expressed his sympathy. Let us call this man Speck and here is how the conversation went:

J: “Mr. Speck why did God make me this way?”
Speck: “God is everywhere so evil must be part him and I don’t know why he made you that way.”

J: “Mr. Speck, I thought you told me one time that there was no God”.
Speck: “Well, there isn’t.”

J. “So if there is no God, what made me this way?”
Speck: “I don’t know.”

J: “Are you saying that there is no God, but if there is one as I believe, then He is responsible for the evil in the world, but if there is no God then you don’t know what caused the evil.”
Speck: “Yes, because if there is a God, then He is responsible for your condition and how could any compassionate person believe in God”.

J: “I believe in God because when I go to heaven I won’t be like this.
Speck: " There is no God and there is no Heaven and this life is all that there is or ever will be, so get used to it!!”

J: “So what you are telling me is that there is no God, at least not a God that is compassionate enough to ease my suffering in this life, so I have nothing to look forward to, I am without hope.”
Speck: “I’m afraid so, there is no hope for you, this life is all there is!”

J: “What does callousness mean?”
Speck: “I don’t know that either.”

J: “If all you know is that there is no God, then why must you destroy the hope of those that believe there is a God?”
Speck: “I feel compelled to help others by diminishing there delusions.”

J: "Why?’
Speck: “Because I have a superior mind.”

J: “Are you a cacouac?”
Speck: “I don’t know.”

A clear case of not knowing one’s self.

YPPOP
 
Blenderx said:
And as a sovereign, it is His right to transfer authority where He pleases. He has been pleased to increase our glory and perfection by giving us a certain amount of authority over His creation and endowing us with free will. He does indeed make Himself our slave, out of love, and wholly for our benefit. He will not demand His rights by force, so, for now, He allows us to go against His will… this does not in any way imply approval, merely tolerance.
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Which still does not diminish his responsibility. But you really should be just a little more consistent: either God is the Lord of all creation, the sovereign ruler, or he is slave of our passions. No matter how much to wish, you cannot have it both ways…
 
yppop said:
Jenna is now 14 years old. She was born with spina bifida and a contorted body, but has a fine mind. One day while sitting on her porch in her wheel chair, she was approached by a man that expressed his sympathy. Let us call this man Speck and here is how the conversation went:…
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Sorry, your take on the conversation is incorrect. Let me fix it for you. My real answers are in red.

J: “Mr. Speck why did God make me this way?”
Speck: “God is everywhere so evil must be part him and I don’t know why he made you that way.”

J: “Mr. Speck, I thought you told me one time that there was no God”.
Speck: “Well, there isn’t.”

J. “So if there is no God, what made me this way?”
Speck: Bad luck. (“I don’t know.”)

J: “Are you saying that there is no God, but if there is one as I believe, then He is responsible for the evil in the world, but if there is no God then you don’t know what caused the evil.”
Speck: “Yes, because if there is a God, then He is responsible for your condition and how could any compassionate person believe in God”.

J: “I believe in God because when I go to heaven I won’t be like this.
Speck: Wishful thinking is nice, but wishing something will not make it happen. If I had the power, I would cure you in no time. (” There is no God and there is no Heaven and this life is all that there is or ever will be, so get used to it!!")

J: “So what you are telling me is that there is no God, at least not a God that is compassionate enough to ease my suffering in this life, so I have nothing to look forward to, I am without hope.”
Speck: Sure there is hope. You are alive, you are smart, you can become a doctor, who has the chance to find a cure for your condition. (“I’m afraid so, there is no hope for you, this life is all there is!”)

J: “What does callousness mean?”
Speck: To be honest even if the truth hurts. You are still very smart, and you have several years in front of you. You will get help, and you will be creative, and you will be a hero to all of the children who will look up on you. (“I don’t know that either.”)

J: “If all you know is that there is no God, then why must you destroy the hope of those that believe there is a God?”
Speck: To help them to lead a good life. An empty wish will not make you better. Facing reality does. (“I feel compelled to help others by diminishing there delusions.”)

J: "Why?’
Speck: Because I do care about them. (“Because I have a superior mind.”)

J: “Are you a cacouac?”
Speck: (“I don’t know.”) I have no idea what that word means. But here is something you should ponder: Sad, but would be true!

You know, what, buddy? Next time you wish to “emulate” me, call and ask. I will be happy to conduct a real conversation with you. If you do that you will not make such elementary errors in your judgment. Do we have a deal?
 
Spock said:
This is one of the reasons why I don’t care what those ancient guys say - because they are “too far out”. Evil is a voluntary action, which is aimed at causing deliberate harm to someone, not some lack or privation of good.
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Your entitled to your opinion but that quote was directed towards the OP. Still though, you acknowledge there is such a thing as a wrong act and evilness. Could you explain how and why certain acts are wrong and there is evil to us as an atheist?
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
Your entitled to your opinion but that quote was directed towards the OP. Still though, you acknowledge there is such a thing as a wrong act and evilness. Could you explain how and why certain acts are wrong and there is evil to us as an atheist?
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I already did in the post you quoted. Harm is obvious. Deliberate harm is obvious. If you deliberately burn someone, it is a volitional act to cause harm, and as such it is evil. Besides, you quoted my post, that is why I thought you directed it toward me.
 
Blenderx said:
But where did you get the idea that God only gives us what we truly want? He is more or less limited in the good He can pour out in us by our expectations- that is, our faith and love. But He doesn’t make Himself subject to our every petty and irrational demand. (Good question though! God bless!)
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Because of free will, if God does not give us that which we truly desire, He is then acting against our free will. So again, if our freely chosen will is to not have God within us, what does He do? He is omnipresent, so He can’t “leave”, yet by staying He is therefore acting directly against our free will. Hmm…it’s one of those questions where the answer seems impossible.
 
Spock said:
I already did in the post you quoted. Harm is obvious. Deliberate harm is obvious. If you deliberately burn someone, it is a volitional act to cause harm, and as such it is evil. Besides, you quoted my post, that is why I thought you directed it toward me.
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Ah, my fault then. Should’ve directed more clearly to the OP.

In the atheistic paradigm, how and why is doing harm to others evil? What justifies your belief in that?
 
Spock said:
According to you, this unchangable and immutable God is “dragged” into participating in all those evil acts, against his better judgment and against his will. Who can be forced to participate? Can you remind me why do you worship such a “weakling”, who is an unwilling, yet active participant in all the actrocities of the world? After all, if God did not “will” to participate, he would not do it… he may not have willed the activities, but he willed his participation - which makes him a willing co-rapist and co-torturer. Should make you think… but will it? I doubt it.
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you do not understand the concept of FREE WILL. God ‘allows’ evil because if he ordered all things to his WILL there would be no free will. Therefore it is not God who ‘wills’ a rapist to rape. God allows the rapist the free will to choose to rape. God will impose his justice when the rapist dies. What is hell? it is having stood in the presence of God and then denied that experience for all eternity. God does not send us to hell, we choose to go there of our own free will.
 
Spock said:
Yes. God is ultimately responsible for everything. The point is - which you guy miss - that God is sovereign, God cannot be forced into something against his will. If he did NOT will something, then it would NOT happen. By the way, the bullet does not do anything on its own, if God does not maintain its existence during its trajectory.
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Spock said:
Sorry, your take on the conversation is incorrect. Let me fix it for you. My real answers are in red.

J: “Mr. Speck why did God make me this way?”
Speck: “God is everywhere so evil must be part him and I don’t know why he made you that way.”

J: “Mr. Speck, I thought you told me one time that there was no God”.
Speck: “Well, there isn’t.”

J. “So if there is no God, what made me this way?”
Speck: Bad luck. (“I don’t know.”)

J: “Are you saying that there is no God, but if there is one as I believe, then He is responsible for the evil in the world, but if there is no God then you don’t know what caused the evil.”
Speck: “Yes, because if there is a God, then He is responsible for your condition and how could any compassionate person believe in God”.

J: “I believe in God because when I go to heaven I won’t be like this.
Speck: Wishful thinking is nice, but wishing something will not make it happen. If I had the power, I would cure you in no time. (” There is no God and there is no Heaven and this life is all that there is or ever will be, so get used to it!!")

J: “So what you are telling me is that there is no God, at least not a God that is compassionate enough to ease my suffering in this life, so I have nothing to look forward to, I am without hope.”
Speck: Sure there is hope. You are alive, you are smart, you can become a doctor, who has the chance to find a cure for your condition. (“I’m afraid so, there is no hope for you, this life is all there is!”)

J: “What does callousness mean?”
Speck: To be honest even if the truth hurts. You are still very smart, and you have several years in front of you. You will get help, and you will be creative, and you will be a hero to all of the children who will look up on you. (“I don’t know that either.”)

J: “If all you know is that there is no God, then why must you destroy the hope of those that believe there is a God?”
Speck: To help them to lead a good life. An empty wish will not make you better. Facing reality does. (“I feel compelled to help others by diminishing there delusions.”)

J: "Why?’
Speck: Because I do care about them. (“Because I have a superior mind.”)

J: “Are you a cacouac?”
Speck: (“I don’t know.”) I have no idea what that word means. But here is something you should ponder: Sad, but would be true!

You know, what, buddy? Next time you wish to “emulate” me, call and ask. I will be happy to conduct a real conversation with you. If you do that you will not make such elementary errors in your judgment. Do we have a deal?
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Spock
How did you know I was talking about you? Did the tenor of my paraphrasing (not emulating by the way) strike home? Nevertheless, I knew from a past exchange of posts that you are either incapable or uninterested in extracting “meaning” from my post so I didn’t expect you to be offended. But anyway, let me thank you for proving with your own answers my point about the callousness of atheism:

To a young girl with the condition I described you would answer her hope for something better in the next life with answers like: “Bad Luck”; “wishing something will not make it happen. . Facing reality does.”; “you can become a doctor.” My how compassionate of you to replace a high hope with a false hope. There is a good chance that God exists and there is a heaven, but there is no hope for a young girl that doesn’t even go to school to become a doctor. Get real Spock!

Nice example of ambiguity in your side stepping Jenny’s question about the meaning of callousness. To give a meaning you might have had to use the word insensitive, a word more akin to your answers?

Regarding your (insincere?) invitation to a conversation, I must respectfully decline. I regard such a request insincere based on a previous exchange of posts, from which I deduced that you are not in the least interested in the thoughts of any believer in God. Namely, my answer (post #30) to your OP in the thread “OK, Let’s Assume a Creator”. Your answer with post # 60 was two superficial hand-waving proclamations. Not a good way to engage in a serious discussion. I immediately rated you as an intellectual light weight, whose main aim is the belittle the sincere belief in the existence of God.

Sincerly Yours,
YPPOP
 
vsedriver said:
it is having stood in the presence of God and then denied that experience for all eternity. God does not send us to hell, we choose to go there of our own free will.
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This exactly is the crux of the issue here that I have not yet heard an answer to. Yes, we willfully choose to go to Hell, ergo, God gives us only that which we desire. This raises some major questions:

Premise We can choose to reject God thus being, for all eternity, in the absence of the presence of God.

Which leads to…

A. How can God be omnipresent if He is not in Hell?..which leads to…

B. If God is present in Hell because He is omnipresent, is He not therefore acting against our free will to be separated from Him?..or…

C. If He is not omnipresent and is not in Hell, how is He God?

It seems like a lose-lose here, no?

God bless,
Paul
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
Ah, my fault then. Should’ve directed more clearly to the OP.
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No harm done.
Trevor_Stamm said:
In the atheistic paradigm, how and why is doing harm to others evil? What justifies your belief in that?
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Reciprocity, or the reverse golden rule. Do not do unto others, what you do not want them do unto you. Simple. I respect you, and expect that you respect me - it is a win-win situation.
 
vsedriver said:
you do not understand the concept of FREE WILL. God ‘allows’ evil because if he ordered all things to his WILL there would be no free will. Therefore it is not God who ‘wills’ a rapist to rape. God allows the rapist the free will to choose to rape. God will impose his justice when the rapist dies.
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Makes no sense. By allowing the will of the rapist to overcome the will of the victim, God made a choice - and with this choice he declared that the will of the rapist is “preferred” over the will of the victim. To say that the rapist will “eventually” be punished is another piece of nonsense. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure - and God does not know that?
vsedriver said:
What is hell? it is having stood in the presence of God and then denied that experience for all eternity. God does not send us to hell, we choose to go there of our own free will.
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Yeah, I just can visualize people “freely” banging on the door of hell, and demanding admittance so they can enjoy eternal torture. How perceptive of you.
 
PJD1987 said:
Because of free will, if God does not give us that which we truly desire, He is then acting against our free will. So again, if our freely chosen will is to not have God within us, what does He do? He is omnipresent, so He can’t “leave”, yet by staying He is therefore acting directly against our free will. Hmm…it’s one of those questions where the answer seems impossible.
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PJD1987 said:
This exactly is the crux of the issue here that I have not yet heard an answer to. Yes, we willfully choose to go to Hell, ergo, God gives us only that which we desire. This raises some major questions:

Premise We can choose to reject God thus being, for all eternity, in the absence of the presence of God.

Which leads to…

A. How can God be omnipresent if He is not in Hell?..which leads to…

B. If God is present in Hell because He is omnipresent, is He not therefore acting against our free will to be separated from Him?..or…

C. If He is not omnipresent and is not in Hell, how is He God?

It seems like a lose-lose here, no?

God bless,
Paul
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Free will does not imply an unlimited power, any more than the truth that we are rational creatures implies that we are always and everywhere rational. It is finite. We aren’t God and we can’t literally command anything of Him by the mere exercise of our free will.

God is, by necessity, present even in Hell, and while in Heaven this presence is manifest in a special way and is our source of joy, in Hell it is hidden and a source of pain. What these souls who consign themselves to Hell are actually choosing is a permanent deprivation of personal and intimate participation in this presence, with all its concomitant privileges.

Therefore God respects our free will, our decision not to love and obey Him, but we are still under the laws of our nature, and the exercise of our free will is limited to matters of choice not necessity. We need God’s presence to hold us in existence, but we may choose not to participate actively in that presence.
 
Spock said:
Makes no sense. By allowing the will of the rapist to overcome the will of the victim, God made a choice - and with this choice he declared that the will of the rapist is “preferred” over the will of the victim. To say that the rapist will “eventually” be punished is another piece of nonsense. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure - and God does not know that?

Yeah, I just can visualize people “freely” banging on the door of hell, and demanding admittance so they can enjoy eternal torture. How perceptive of you.
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People choose all sorts of long-lasting and horrible tortures for themselves. They stay long term in seriously abusive relationships or in the self-created hell of drug or alcohol abuse. They smoke knowing the risks, and often even while going through the reality, of resulting diseases such as lung cancer, which are torture if anything is.
 
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