The Problem with the Presence of God

[tonyrey]

We are not God’s pets but his adopted children.

I like your delightful “God’s pets” but to those who don’t know St Paul’s letter to the Ephesians “adopted children” gives the impression that we weren’t His to start with!

 

[tonyrey]

People choose all sorts of long-lasting and horrible tortures for themselves. They stay long term in seriously abusive relationships or in the self-created hell of drug or alcohol abuse. They smoke knowing the risks, and often even while going through the reality, of resulting diseases such as lung cancer, which are torture if anything is.

Of course no one is really responsible because in a Godless universe the power of choice infringes the law of conservation of energy!

 

[Spock]

People choose all sorts of long-lasting and horrible tortures for themselves. They stay long term in seriously abusive relationships or in the self-created hell of drug or alcohol abuse. They smoke knowing the risks, and often even while going through the reality, of resulting diseases such as lung cancer, which are torture if anything is.

Do you mean that the woman got into that abusive relationship, knowing full well, what that relationship will be? And that she does not leave because she enjoys it? Most probably she fears of the consequences of leaving. There is no 100% causative relationship between smoking and and lung cancer. People choose smoking, because they “hope” they will not get lung cancer, and there is a very good chance they will not. And they consider that the risk is worth to be taken.

The only valid comparision would be that people “choose” to go to prison (by “valid” I mean, equally nonsensical). Indeed, people commit acts which will be punished by a prison sentence. But those people do not believe that they will be caught (and many criminals are not caught) and even if they are caught, they will be dragged forcefully into that prison. They do not show up at the gates of the prison, demanding admittance.

So, kindly stop the nonsense of people “choosing hell”. Poeple choose all sorts of actions, and according the Christian beliefs, some of those will carry a “hell-sentence”. But that does not mean that people choose hell. And since there is no offical, legitimate list enumerating which actions will be “rewarded by eternal torture”, you cannot say that people choose hell.

Among all the horrible euphemisms this is probably the most hyporcritical and nonsensical. (And there are far too many of those.)

 

[tonyrey]

you do not understand the concept of FREE WILL.

The real problem is that materialists/physicalists reject free will - if they are consistent (which is often not the case) - because it infringes the law of conservation of physical energy!

 

[tonyrey]

This just seems like a way to diminish responsibility for humans. I shot someone, but it isn’t my fault, since God should have just made the bullet disappear (even though I know full well how a bullet acts in this universe and the damage it does). Everything’s God’s fault, then?

A very convenient cop out!

 

[TimothyH]

WARNING: This post contains references to Mary!

God is everwhere. God is in all things, around all things and pervades all things. But the grace of the Holy Spirit is not in every soul.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. (John 14:23)

This verse is from the section of John 14 where Jesus revealed to the twelve his teaching on The Advocate. And we echo Jesus’ teaching as handed down to us by the Church, we testify to the nature of the Holy Spirit, in the creed at every Mass. With all due respect to our Eastern brother’s and sisters, the Holy Spirit “Proceedes from the Father and from the Son.” This is how Jesus can tell us that “We” (the Father and Son from which the holy spirit proceedes) will make “our” abode in each of us. But only if we obey, only if we keep Jesus’ word.

If I ascend to the heavens, you are there;
if I lie down in Sheol, there you are.
(Psalm 139:8)

God is in the center of the sun and on the surface of the moons of Jupiter. God is in our soul. But grace is an action of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit - the sanctifier - who gives us sanctifying grace, does not act on every soul, and this is why I think that people focus too much on free will, too much on ourselves, and not enough on God and the grace of the Holy Spirit. .

If we enter into a state of sanctifying grace and allow the Holy Spirit - the sanctifer - to work in our lives, our choices will begin to aling with God’s will. Our free will won’t be an issue because like Mary - Full of Grace - our will will conform perfectly to God’s will. We have only to enter into a state of sanctifying grace and attune our lives to the propmpting of the Holy Sprit.

Mary, Full of Grace, is our perfect example. Mary had perfect free will. Perfect, because it was perfectly aligned with God. But her perfect free well was a product of sanctifying grace, an action of the Holy Spirit.

You can argue about whether God respects our free will all you want, but for a Catholic Christian who believes in God and Loves Jesus, it is really like arguing wether the glass is half full or half empty. To hell with free will. Go for sanctifying grace. Be like Mary and your free-will will be perfected.

-Tim-

 

[LilyM]

Who says you have to enjoy a consequence to choose it or be morally responsible for that choice? Most murderers kill out of anger or hatred or a million other reasons rather than enjoyment of killing or any particular desire to go to jail or be executed.

Nonetheless they know the consequence if they are caught is likely to be jail or execution. Knowing this, in essence they choose the consequence when they choose the act, and for the most part we don’t think it unfair when they are punished accordingly.

Do you mean that the woman got into that abusive relationship, knowing full well, what that relationship will be? And that she does not leave because she enjoys it? Most probably she fears of the consequences of leaving. There is no 100% causative relationship between smoking and and lung cancer. People choose smoking, because they “hope” they will not get lung cancer, and there is a very good chance they will not. And they consider that the risk is worth to be taken.

The only valid comparision would be that people “choose” to go to prison (by “valid” I mean, equally nonsensical). Indeed, people commit acts which will be punished by a prison sentence. But those people do not believe that they will be caught (and many criminals are not caught) and even if they are caught, they will be dragged forcefully into that prison. They do not show up at the gates of the prison, demanding admittance.

So, kindly stop the nonsense of people “choosing hell”. Poeple choose all sorts of actions, and according the Christian beliefs, some of those will carry a “hell-sentence”. But that does not mean that people choose hell. And since there is no offical, legitimate list enumerating which actions will be “rewarded by eternal torture”, you cannot say that people choose hell.

Among all the horrible euphemisms this is probably the most hyporcritical and nonsensical. (And there are far too many of those.)

 

[Spock]

Who says you have to enjoy a consequence to choose it or be morally responsible for that choice? Most murderers kill out of anger or hatred or a million other reasons rather than enjoyment of killing or any particular desire to go to jail or be executed.

You miss the point: they do not believe that they will be caught, and indeed, many perpetrators of many crimes are not caught. But they know the consequences if they are caught.

Nonetheless they know the consequence if they are caught is likely to be jail or execution. Knowing this, in essence they choose the consequence when they choose the act, and for the most part we don’t think it unfair when they are punished accordingly.

No “in essence”. They have a reasonable chance to avoid the consequences. If you get into a car, you know that there is a certain chance to be involved in an accident. You don’t think that there will be one, and most of the time there is none. But once in a while there is an accident. To say that “in essence” you “chose” that accident is sheer nonsense.

But at least in the case of those criminals they do know that there are laws, they are aware of what the law says. And that is what is missing from your assumption. You believe that certain acts will “doom” you to hell. But that is merely your (you as in heneral, not specific) belief, nothing more. There is no “God given stone tablet” to be dsiplayed for all the skeptics to see. Sure, you believe, what you believe. And yes, you tell me what you think. And, yes, you can point to the bible. But, with all due respect, I do not believe you. And therefore I cannot “choose” hell, not “in essence” either.