The problem with those that bring up "the problem with evil"

[LittleSoldier]

First of all, no unbeliever I have ever read concerning morality has thought that “in principle” they, or anyone, can do whatever they please. There are social and familial obligations just as keenly felt among atheists as among Christians, as you would know if you bothered to learn how they really think and act instead of how you imagine them to be.

Simply because no unbeliever you have read has “thought that ‘in principle’ they, or anyone, can do whatever they please” doesn’t mean that *all *unbelievers think “that ‘in principle’ they, or anyone, can do whatever they please.” Sounds to me like you’re imagining that all unbelievers think and act as you say they do. Then you accuse the poster to whom you are responding of imagining that all unbelievers think and act as he/she says they do. Strange.

On the increasingly rare occasions when I am plagued by fears of Hell leftover from the days of Christian liberty and freedom, I remind myself that if I am wrong, at least a merciful God who actually knows my thoughts and motives will be my judge, and not you.

What does this have to do with the topic?

 

[SGWessells]

LittleSoldier wrote: “However, I see no problem with God being responsible for our genetic makeup and other factors such as where we are born and to whom. God is divine; we aren’t, and divinity is difficult to understand by non-divine creatures.”

Unfortunately, our understanding is the only one we have access to, so we’re stuck with it. That’s why revelation seems unlikely to me, because one would think that a god of infinite wisdom, who designed human intelligence, and knows our words before we say them, would be able to reveal himself in ways so clear that there would be less confusion and disagreement than history shows (not to mention these boards). Or if our nature is so contrary that such a revelation is impossible, that he wouldn’t bother with trying to help us get it right, knowing that we never would, but would design a better species instead.

 

[SGWessells]

Simply because no unbeliever you have read has “thought that ‘in principle’ they, or anyone, can do whatever they please” doesn’t mean that *all *unbelievers think “that ‘in principle’ they, or anyone, can do whatever they please.” Sounds to me like you’re imagining that all unbelievers think and act as you say they do. Then you accuse the poster to whom you are responding of imagining that all unbelievers think and act as he/she says they do. Strange.

What does this have to do with the topic?

It was my reply to Tonyrey’s question, “Do you miss the possibility of an eternity of isolation from God?”

The Catholics on this thread seem to assume that there is no middle ground between an absolute morality dictated by God and total subjectivism and “anything goes (in principle)”. I don’t think so. Certain moral laws are nearly universal across cultures, timelines, and social classes. Is that because God has “written his law on our hearts,” as Paul said in Romans? If that were the case, I wonder why he didn’t write* all* his laws on our hearts, but only some. Reason can tell us that allowing anti-social acts without sanctions will destroy society; we don’t need God or absolutes for that. You can ask, “why is it good to preserve society” to try and force us into a philosophical corner, but unless one has an agenda to push one’s own religious code, the question answers itself.

 

[tonyrey]

The Catholics on this thread seem to assume that there is no middle ground between an absolute morality dictated by God and total subjectivism and “anything goes (in principle)”. I don’t think so. Certain moral laws are nearly universal across cultures, timelines, and social classes. Is that because God has “written his law on our hearts,” as Paul said in Romans? If that were the case, I wonder why he didn’t write* all* his laws on our hearts, but only some.

Moral laws have been universal because religious beliefs have been universal but human beings are neither infallible nor impeccable!

Reason can tell us that allowing anti-social acts without sanctions will destroy society; we don’t need God or absolutes for that. You can ask, “why is it good to preserve society” to try and force us into a philosophical corner, but unless one has an agenda to push one’s own religious code, the question answers itself.

There are many people who couldn’t care less about what happens to society provided they get what they want…

 

[SGWessells]

Moral laws have been universal because religious beliefs have been universal but human beings are neither infallible nor impeccable!

There are many people who couldn’t care less about what happens to society provided they get what they want…

Religions have also disagreed on what moral laws God wants us to obey. But if God is the supreme arbiter of morality, how do you decide which God is the right one? Well, you have already decided; how do I decide?
There are people in every religion who don’t care what happens to society as long as their religion dominates everyone. How is that any better than your example?
Religious people are no better on average at obeying the morals of their religion than secular people are at obeying the laws of their society. But if the Holy Spirit indwells Catholics, and the Eucharist fills them with the Presence of Christ, how come they, on average, are no better than those without those advantages? And if that is the case, what good are those advantages, morally speaking?
Yes, there are great saints, but also great sinners in religion. Someone said that good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.

Why is believing that God’s commandments – assuming they can be known with any reliability – are the standard of goodness any less arbitrary and unsupported than basing morality on human welfare or social cohesion? Why can’t we say morality should be determined by whatever produces the greatest good for the greatest number (determining good by such self-evident truths as that being fed is better than starving, health is better than illness, and so on? Why would that be any less absolute than saying that the equally arbitrarily defined goodness of God determines that his commands are morally absolute? The only reason God’s commands seem absolute is that we define them that way. Since we define God as having infinite wisdom and love, as well as infinite power to judge and enforce his judgments, we call his moral principles – or what his self-appointed spokespersons say are his moral principles – absolute. But on what more than arbitrary assumption do we base our conviction that God has these qualities? It’s another circular argument like the one where theologians say God didn’t need the creation to be fulfilled, but made the universe because he wished to embody his various perfections in his creation; then they say his creations prove his goodness by showing his various perfections. Each one proves the other. Similarly, we define God’s character in such a way that his commandments would have to be absolute (unless he said otherwise, as Jesus did in Mat. 5-7), then prove that his commandments must be absolute because they flow from his character.

 

[LittleSoldier]

LittleSoldier wrote: “However, I see no problem with God being responsible for our genetic makeup and other factors such as where we are born and to whom. God is divine; we aren’t, and divinity is difficult to understand by non-divine creatures.”

Unfortunately, our understanding is the only one we have access to, so we’re stuck with it. That’s why revelation seems unlikely to me, because one would think that a god of infinite wisdom, who designed human intelligence, and knows our words before we say them, would be able to reveal himself in ways so clear that there would be less confusion and disagreement than history shows (not to mention these boards). Or if our nature is so contrary that such a revelation is impossible, that he wouldn’t bother with trying to help us get it right, knowing that we never would, but would design a better species instead.

Our physical structures used for understanding are what God gave us. He knows we can’t understand Him completely; at least not the way we are now. But what difference does that make? Have you considered the possibility that our struggles to understand are part of the reason we exist? That our lives here on earth, which we will all lose eventually, may not be so important? Or that it’s what we do with our limited time here that is all important? I believe that God created us exactly as He intended to create us and He shows His wisdom and love in His creations.

 

[SGWessells]

I believe that God created us exactly as He intended to create us and He shows His wisdom and love in His creations.

That is your right, of course; but if God created us with the limited understanding we have, then he has no one to blame but himself when we don’t get it.

 

[jochoa]

Religions have also disagreed on what moral laws God wants us to obey. But if God is the supreme arbiter of morality, how do you decide which God is the right one? Well, you have already decided; how do I decide?

The First Part of Knowing is by the Supreme Philosophy of Being Peaceful, Happy, Energetic, and Wise as an Individual and Society, also including a Simple, and working, Concept of the Holy Trinity.
Please note that the following are only personal conceptualizations.
Here are some Guiding Questions to consider:
Do you want to live in a state of Unbreakable Peace?
Do you want to live in a state of Limitless Happiness?
Do you want to live with Unstoppable Energy?
Do you want All the Wisdom Necessary to be at Peace with Limited Knowledge?
Do you want Others around you to live in the Culmination of These Blessings?

Now Recognize:
Unbreakable Peace is only achievable through Perfect Patience.
Limitless Happiness…through Perfect Kindness.
Unstoppable Energy…through Perfect Motivation.
The Foundation of Wisdom…through the Perfect Philosophy of Peace, Happiness, and Energy throughout the Being and Society, as well as a working Simple Philosophy of the 3 Persons in the One Person of God.

Next Recognize the Perfect Philosophy comes from the Holy Bible:
I would like to offer this personal interpretation taken from the First Commandment: Deuteronomy 6:5, the Greatest Commandments: Matthew 22:36-40 and Mark 12:29-31, and the Definition of Love (What Love Is): 1 Corinthians 13:4 (Love is Patient. Love is Kind):
“The Holy Trinity is One God. Always be Patient and Kind and Motivated for God with All Your Body and with All Your Spirit and with All Your Thoughts and with All Your Will towards God, Others, and Yourself. This is the Foundation of Wisdom.”
Next Recognize the Perfect Philosophy was first stated and demonstrated fully by Jesus in the Greatest Commandments and His Crucifixion.

To Find the Wisdom of Being an Individual:
A Person has an intangible being (the immaterial spirit), a tangible being (the material being), and a nature (the how and why a person does what s/he does.) The Person/Spirit/Being has an Image/Body, Thoughts, and a Will which proceeds from the Image/Body and Thoughts. The Image/Body, Thoughts, and Will are each distinctions of a Person. Every instance of each distinction is Fully of the Person’s Nature. The Nature can be further recognized as the Combination of the Following:
-the Qualities of Patience, Kindness, Motivation, and Knowledge
-the Desiring of Peace, Happiness, Energy, and Wisdom
-the Achievement of Patience/Peace, Kindness/Happiness, Motivation/Energy, and Knowledge/Wisdom
This Combination of Factors can be applied to Every Single Action of a Person’s Thoughts, Body, and Will.
Therefore, the Pinnacle of Person is All Distinctions working together in a Truly Loving Nature, as defined by the Greatest Commandments.

To find the Wisdom of Being a Society:
A Society has a Body of People, a Governing Head, and a Will which proceeds from the Governing Head and the Body of People.
If a Society wants Unbreakable Peace, Limitless Happiness, and Unstoppable Energy for Every Person of its Body, the Society must Dedicate itself to Achieving and “Spreading the Means to” Perfect Patience/Unbreakable Peace, Perfect Kindness/Limitless Happiness, Perfect Motivation/Unstoppable Energy, and Perfect Knowledge/Content Wisdom.

To Recognize a Simple, and working, Concept of the Holy Trinity:
God’s Person/Spirit/Being has an Image/Body, Thoughts, and a Will which proceeds from the Image/Body and Thoughts.
When God became Flesh, each Distinction became Flesh.
His Thoughts, the Imaging of how to achieve His Goal of having Free Willed Beings to be One with His Nature, became Tangible. Therefore, His Thoughts are Fully the Thoughts of the Father. Since the Father is the Immaterial Spirit with Image, Thoughts, and Will, He is a Distinct Person.
His Image, the Imaging of what exactly He would do if He came down from Heaven to redirect His People to the Goal, became Tangible. Therefore, His Image is Fully the Image/Body of the Father and the Son. Since the Son does not share the Complete Thoughts, nor Will, of the Father, the Son is a Distinct Person.
His Will, the Imaging of His Actions to Lead Free Willed Beings to be One with His Nature, is being revealed as Tangible throughout Time. Therefore, His Will is Fully the Will of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit does not have the Complete Image, nor Thoughts, nor Will of the Father or the Son, the Holy Spirit is a Distinct Person.
Since…
-Each Distinct Person is Fully of God
-Each Instance of God’s Person is Fully of God’s Nature
-Each Distinction is Inseparable from one another. For without one instance of any Distinction, God would not be God.
It can be said that God is the Father and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit and God is the Holy Trinity.

I have yet to write/share parts regarding the Nature of Every Single Action, the States of Perfection, the Natural Sequence of Becoming One with the Holy Spirit, the Faith of Existence, and the Roles of Living. However, just as this part was composed, the other parts will be founded on the Greatest Commandments as Jesus Taught and Demonstrated in His Crucifixion, according to the Holy Bible, according to Catholicism, as practiced and learned in the Sacraments and Prayers of Catholicism and its Catechism, as experienced in Life.

Thoughts?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Religions have also disagreed on what moral laws God wants us to obey. But if God is the supreme arbiter of morality, how do you decide which God is the right one? Well, you have already decided; how do I decide?

It doesn’t matter if people “decide.” The existence of God (and there is only one) is true whether people decide that God is to their liking or not. His presence is not subjective. Our acceptance of God makes no difference as to whether God exists. He just exists.

Why is believing that God’s commandments – assuming they can be known with any reliability – are the standard of goodness any less arbitrary and unsupported than basing morality on human welfare or social cohesion? Why can’t we say morality should be determined by whatever produces the greatest good for the greatest number (determining good by such self-evident truths as that being fed is better than starving, health is better than illness, and so on?

Jesus gave us His two Great Commandments and upon them the whole of His Law is based. Determining morality on whatever produces the greatest good for the greatest number does not take into consideration the fact that the minority are also meant to be treated with love and dignity. The minority may be the least of God’s brethren but that doesn’t mean their needs should be of no consequence. God’s Laws take *everyone *into consideration as all are created in His image.

Is being fed always better than starving? Is being healthy always better than being ill? It might appear so from our viewpoint but that doesn’t mean it is always true from God’s viewpoint. The best outcome for an ill person may not be curing his/her illness - perhaps it is better for that person if God takes him/her home to heaven. We can’t say as we are not omniscient. We don’t know and I see this as a problem with your arguments. We simply do not know because we are not divine and cannot place ourselves on an equal footing with God (or, even worse, attempt to place ourselves *above *God and yet this happens all the time).

Why would that be any less absolute than saying that the equally arbitrarily defined goodness of God determines that his commands are morally absolute? The only reason God’s commands seem absolute is that we define them that way. Since we define God as having infinite wisdom and love, as well as infinite power to judge and enforce his judgments, we call his moral principles – or what his self-appointed spokespersons say are his moral principles – absolute. But on what more than arbitrary assumption do we base our conviction that God has these qualities? It’s another circular argument like the one where theologians say God didn’t need the creation to be fulfilled, but made the universe because he wished to embody his various perfections in his creation; then they say his creations prove his goodness by showing his various perfections. Each one proves the other. Similarly, we define God’s character in such a way that his commandments would have to be absolute (unless he said otherwise, as Jesus did in Mat. 5-7), then prove that his commandments must be absolute because they flow from his character.

God’s commands not only “seem” absolute; they *are *absolute. His true spokespersons are not self-appointed; Jesus appointed Peter as the rock upon whom His Church would be founded and Jesus also appointed His Apostles as the ones to spread His Word. Through Apostolic Tradition we have had spokespersons who are still appointed by God Himself.

We don’t base our conviction that God has these qualities on arbitrary arguments; we know that God has these qualities because God is Truth and God has spoken. We know that God (and Truth) are unchanging. And we also know that the Church is the Body of Christ - so that her teachings, coming from God are Truth.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The First Part of Knowing is by the Supreme Philosophy of Being Peaceful, Happy, Energetic, and Wise as an Individual and Society, also including a Simple, and working, Concept of the Holy Trinity.
Please note that the following are only personal conceptualizations.
Here are some Guiding Questions to consider:
Do you want to live in a state of Unbreakable Peace?
Do you want to live in a state of Limitless Happiness?
Do you want to live with Unstoppable Energy?
Do you want All the Wisdom Necessary to be at Peace with Limited Knowledge?
Do you want Others around you to live in the Culmination of These Blessings?

Now Recognize:
Unbreakable Peace is only achievable through Perfect Patience.
Limitless Happiness…through Perfect Kindness.
Unstoppable Energy…through Perfect Motivation.
The Foundation of Wisdom…through the Perfect Philosophy of Peace, Happiness, and Energy throughout the Being and Society, as well as a working Simple Philosophy of the 3 Persons in the One Person of God.

Next Recognize the Perfect Philosophy comes from the Holy Bible:
I would like to offer this personal interpretation taken from the First Commandment: Deuteronomy 6:5, the Greatest Commandments: Matthew 22:36-40 and Mark 12:29-31, and the Definition of Love (What Love Is): 1 Corinthians 13:4 (Love is Patient. Love is Kind):
“The Holy Trinity is One God. Always be Patient and Kind and Motivated for God with All Your Body and with All Your Spirit and with All Your Thoughts and with All Your Will towards God, Others, and Yourself. This is the Foundation of Wisdom.”
Next Recognize the Perfect Philosophy was first stated and demonstrated fully by Jesus in the Greatest Commandments and His Crucifixion.

To Find the Wisdom of Being an Individual:
A Person has an intangible being (the immaterial spirit), a tangible being (the material being), and a nature (the how and why a person does what s/he does.) The Person/Spirit/Being has an Image/Body, Thoughts, and a Will which proceeds from the Image/Body and Thoughts. The Image/Body, Thoughts, and Will are each distinctions of a Person. Every instance of each distinction is Fully of the Person’s Nature. The Nature can be further recognized as the Combination of the Following:
-the Qualities of Patience, Kindness, Motivation, and Knowledge
-the Desiring of Peace, Happiness, Energy, and Wisdom
-the Achievement of Patience/Peace, Kindness/Happiness, Motivation/Energy, and Knowledge/Wisdom
This Combination of Factors can be applied to Every Single Action of a Person’s Thoughts, Body, and Will.
Therefore, the Pinnacle of Person is All Distinctions working together in a Truly Loving Nature, as defined by the Greatest Commandments.

To find the Wisdom of Being a Society:
A Society has a Body of People, a Governing Head, and a Will which proceeds from the Governing Head and the Body of People.
If a Society wants Unbreakable Peace, Limitless Happiness, and Unstoppable Energy for Every Person of its Body, the Society must Dedicate itself to Achieving and “Spreading the Means to” Perfect Patience/Unbreakable Peace, Perfect Kindness/Limitless Happiness, Perfect Motivation/Unstoppable Energy, and Perfect Knowledge/Content Wisdom.

To Recognize a Simple, and working, Concept of the Holy Trinity:
God’s Person/Spirit/Being has an Image/Body, Thoughts, and a Will which proceeds from the Image/Body and Thoughts.
When God became Flesh, each Distinction became Flesh.
His Thoughts, the Imaging of how to achieve His Goal of having Free Willed Beings to be One with His Nature, became Tangible. Therefore, His Thoughts are Fully the Thoughts of the Father. Since the Father is the Immaterial Spirit with Image, Thoughts, and Will, He is a Distinct Person.
His Image, the Imaging of what exactly He would do if He came down from Heaven to redirect His People to the Goal, became Tangible. Therefore, His Image is Fully the Image/Body of the Father and the Son. Since the Son does not share the Complete Thoughts, nor Will, of the Father, the Son is a Distinct Person.
His Will, the Imaging of His Actions to Lead Free Willed Beings to be One with His Nature, is being revealed as Tangible throughout Time. Therefore, His Will is Fully the Will of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit does not have the Complete Image, nor Thoughts, nor Will of the Father or the Son, the Holy Spirit is a Distinct Person.
Since…
-Each Distinct Person is Fully of God
-Each Instance of God’s Person is Fully of God’s Nature
-Each Distinction is Inseparable from one another. For without one instance of any Distinction, God would not be God.
It can be said that God is the Father and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit and God is the Holy Trinity.

I have yet to write/share parts regarding the Nature of Every Single Action, the States of Perfection, the Natural Sequence of Becoming One with the Holy Spirit, the Faith of Existence, and the Roles of Living. However, just as this part was composed, the other parts will be founded on the Greatest Commandments as Jesus Taught and Demonstrated in His Crucifixion, according to the Holy Bible, according to Catholicism, as practiced and learned in the Sacraments and Prayers of Catholicism and its Catechism, as experienced in Life.

Thoughts?

My thought at this time is “WOW!!” You’ve obviously spent a lot of time and effort using your reasoning capabilities. I’ve read through it several times now but need to read it many times more. In fact, I’ve made a copy so that in case this thread disappears I will still have it. Thank you. I, for one, appreciate the effort you have made and I believe that what you have written here will help me.

 

[SGWessells]

Jochoa wrote: “When God became Flesh, each Distinction became Flesh.
His Thoughts, the Imaging of how to achieve His Goal of having Free Willed Beings to be One with His Nature, became Tangible. Therefore, His Thoughts are Fully the Thoughts of the Father. Since the Father is the Immaterial Spirit with Image, Thoughts, and Will, He is a Distinct Person.
His Image, the Imaging of what exactly He would do if He came down from Heaven to redirect His People to the Goal, became Tangible. Therefore, His Image is Fully the Image/Body of the Father and the Son. Since the Son does not share the Complete Thoughts, nor Will, of the Father, the Son is a Distinct Person.”

If I understand this correctly, which is Doubtful, because it is Full of Abstractions Needlessly Capitalized in the Middle of Sentences, you are saying that all three Persons of the Trinity (the “Distinctions”) became flesh. If that’s what you meant, it is contrary to Catholic teaching. If not, I am totally baffled as to what you do mean. You do, however, point Out some of The irrationalities of trinitarian doctrine, but since it is a Mystery Beyond our Comprehension, it doesn’t matter Whether we Understand it, only that we accept It By faith.
What can you mean by thoughts becoming “tangible”? The word Tangible means able to be touched and apprehended by the senses. Did God’s thougghts become material? Are theu floating around bumping into things? I know they have gravitas, but do they have gravity? Although if they were material, they would have mass, which would be appropriate

Unbreakable Peace is only achievable through Perfect Patience.
Limitless Happiness…through Perfect Kindness.
Unstoppable Energy…through Perfect Motivation.

Can anyone but God achieve this state?

Next Recognize the Perfect Philosophy comes from the Holy Bible:

Bou, does that open a can of worms. I could write a book in response to this statement, but for now, see how this fits:

"“Yet when I applied my mind to know wisdom and knowledge, madness and folly, I learned that this also is a chase after wind. For in much wisdom there is much sorrow; whoever increases knowledge, increases grief…
for the more words, the more vanity; what profit is there for anyone?”
Eccl. 1:17, 18; 6:11.NAB

 

[SGWessells]

LittleSoldier wrote: "It doesn’t matter if people “decide.” The existence of God (and there is only one) is true whether people decide that God is to their liking or not. His presence is not subjective. Our acceptance of God makes no difference as to whether God exists. He just exists. "

True, but irrelevant. We still have to decide which God, if any, deserves our allegiance, since none of them appears to us as Jesus did to Paul. And the only instrument we have to make that decision with is our own judgment. Other things can influence us, such as parents, peers, culture, desires, etc., but in the end, our own judgment has to decide. It is true that deciding that God exists doesn’t make him exist, just as deciding that he doesn’t exist doesn’t make him nonexistent. But this is true of any god that exists. You believe that the god you accept is the only one that exists, yes; but by your own principle, that doesn’t make him the only god that exists. Each person has to determine which one he believes in for himself.

Jesus gave us His two Great Commandments and upon them the whole of His Law is based. Determining morality on whatever produces the greatest good for the greatest number does not take into consideration the fact that the minority are also meant to be treated with love and dignity. The minority may be the least of God’s brethren but that doesn’t mean their needs should be of no consequence. God’s Laws take everyone into consideration as all are created in His image.

Did I say the minority should be “of no consequence”? If I give a thousand dollars to feed the poor, then more poor people will be fed than if I gave a hundred dollars. Does that mean that I consider the poor who are not fed “of no consequence”? That they deserve to starve? Of course not. What it does mean is that it’s better to give a thousand because more people will be in the fed group and fewer in the hungry group.

Is being fed always better than starving? Is being healthy always better than being ill? It might appear so from our viewpoint but that doesn’t mean it is always true from God’s viewpoint. The best outcome for an ill person may not be curing his/her illness - perhaps it is better for that person if God takes him/her home to heaven. We can’t say as we are not omniscient.

Exactly. We are not omniscient. But we are responsible. Jesus said feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.; in fact, he made doing so a condition for entering the Kingdom in Mat. 25:31-46, did he not? Despite the fact that we don’t know whether they would be better off starving and shivering. God can act on his knowledge, we have to act on ours, limited as it is. In your quote above, you’re only justifying the goats. Jesus, on the other hand, said “as you have done to the least of these, you have done to me.”
But I don’t have to believe in Jesus to know that a man well fed can get to heaven as easily as a hungry one, and be well fed in addition. Maybe he can get there easier, being also filled with gratitude to God rather than bitterness.

God’s commands not only “seem” absolute; they are absolute. …
We don’t base our conviction that God has these qualities on arbitrary arguments; we know that God has these qualities because God is Truth and God has spoken. We know that God (and Truth) are unchanging.

If God’s commands are absolute and unchanging, how can Jesus change them? In Matt. 5:19, Jesus says whoever teaches others to break the least commandment of the law will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; then he teaches others to do just that in Mat. 5:38-39: “You have heard that it was said, ‘an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth’; it I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil, etc.” They have not just “heard it said;” God himself commanded it in Ex. 21:24 and Lev. 24:20. So which of these is absolute and unchanging?
Does God have to obey his own laws, or not? If not, then they are good for us, but not for him, therefore not absolute; if so, why does he disobey them so often in the Bible? God either disobeys or commands others to disobey every one of the ten commandments but the first.
And how well does God conform to his own definition of love? 1 Cor. 13 says love is not jealous, but God is, Ex. 20:5; love does not “brood over injury” (1 Cor. 13:5), but God “visits the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children to the fourth generation,” Ex. 34:7, and commands Saul to murder the Amalekits for what their ancestors did generations before, 1 Sam. 15:2. Love is “not quick-tempered”, but although the OT often says God is slow to anger, his anger was kindled pretty swiftly against Moses in Ex. 4:14; against Israel in Num. 11:14; against Uzzah in 2 Sam. 6>7 (for only wanting to steady the ark to keep it from falling; but God was so furious that he instantly killed him; in fact, I’m amazed that he didn’t follow his usual pattern and kill a few thousand innocents standing around). A good concordance will show many more examples, but I will move on. “Love is patient,” 1 Cor. 13:4. Well, when God is nursing his wrath against a nation, he can certainly be patient, but I doubt that’s what Paul meant; and Uzzah certainly experienced God’s patience. Love “rejoices not in wrongdoing,” and scripture defines lying as damnable, Rev. 21:8; but God commands people to lie on his behalf in Ex. 3:18 and 5:1, in 1 Sam. 16:2, rewards Rahab for lying in Jos. 2:3-6, puts a lying spirit in a prophet’s mouth, 1 Kings 22:23, etc. God forbids adultery, then engineers it in 2 Sam. 12:11, 12. Believe me, I could go on for pages. So unless you are willing to deny the accuracy of the whole OT, don’t tell me that God’s commands are absolute, since he doesn’t respect them enough to follow them himself. Maybe one reason human history is so bloodthirsty is that so many are following their Maker’s example like we’re supposed to.

 

[jochoa]

First, thank you very much for your time, consideration, and reply. You have helped me grow in perspective.

If I understand this correctly, which is Doubtful, because it is Full of Abstractions Needlessly Capitalized in the Middle of Sentences, you are saying that all three Persons of the Trinity (the “Distinctions”) became flesh. If that’s what you meant, it is contrary to Catholic teaching. If not, I am totally baffled as to what you do mean. You do, however, point Out some of The irrationalities of trinitarian doctrine, but since it is a Mystery Beyond our Comprehension, it doesn’t matter Whether we Understand it, only that we accept It By faith.

First, I apologize for the overused capitalized words. I am trying to demonstrate alignment with qualities of God, absolute & perfections, however I can share them with you lower cased for simplicity of reading. Second, as I stated earlier, these are only personal conceptualizations which help me grow closer to God and perhaps might help you grow closer too. If they are out of alignment with Catholicism, please share your criticisms, and I will gladly alter my understandings to fit accordingly. If they do not help you grow closer to God, please disregard them. Third, I am saying that the three distinct components of God’s person (spirit, image/body, mind, and will) became flesh. Last, I definitely agree that the mystery is beyond our comprehension. I am only sharing a simple and working concept of how three persons can all be of the same person while using a strict definition of person. For now, since it is a mystery, I will try not to bring it up until the part on the Roles of Living.

What can you mean by thoughts becoming “tangible”? The word Tangible means able to be touched and apprehended by the senses. Did God’s thougghts become material? Are theu floating around bumping into things? I know they have gravitas, but do they have gravity? Although if they were material, they would have mass, which would be appropriate

It is said that before you and I were born, God knew both of us. The act of knowing requires thought. Therefore, God’s thought of us became tangible/material. Both you and I are material, apprehended by the senses, have gravity, and although I am not floating around, I am bumping into things quite often! . Please consider the following method of conceptualizing this:
A playwright first imagines in the mind, what is to happen in the play. Next, the playwright scripts the thoughts. Then the actors act out the script. The thoughts of the playwright became material.
The huge difference in God’s thoughts becoming material, is that God has the knowledge to determine what free-willed beings will do, think, and become without taking away their free being. Playwrights do not have this capability.

Can anyone but God achieve this state?

I believe so, and according to the Catechisms of Catholicisms #460, “…we might become God… and …might make men gods.” We believe so. I think the better question is: Do you want to try to achieve this state?

Bou, does that open a can of worms. I could write a book in response to this statement, but for now, see how this fits:

"“Yet when I applied my mind to know wisdom and knowledge, madness and folly, I learned that this also is a chase after wind. For in much wisdom there is much sorrow; whoever increases knowledge, increases grief…
for the more words, the more vanity; what profit is there for anyone?”
Eccl. 1:17, 18; 6:11.NAB

I dearly apologize for not being wise enough to explain specific passages, I have very little knowledge and wisdom. I am learning more and more each day, however, currently I do not know enough to explain this. If I had to throw out a guess, I would say:
Considering it was pre-Jesus: It was definitely a shot in the dark to know and understand concepts of God. And if I were learning without consideration of Jesus, I definitely would not be learning from perfection, and therefore would be focused on not fully righteous concepts. Any time I learn and focus on not fully righteous knowledge and wisdom, my life always increases in grief.
Please consider the following application: If one heavily studies how medicine/drugs can make parts of the mind or body less stressed, tense, aching, and more relaxed, stress-free, and numb, one will gain great knowledge and wisdom. However, since the knowledge and wisdom is not fully righteous, the amount of grief in life(not limited to their own life) will increase.

Regarding achieving the states of unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy, I will share another part of a method of knowing God shortly.

Thoughts?

 

[jochoa]

A Method of Knowing God - Part Two - The Nature of a Truly Loving Action and the Law of Every Single Action
Please note, in the first part of my proposed method, I was only sharing the simplified concept of the Holy Trinity to greater glorify the wisdom found in the Greatest Commandments. Since the major focus of my method is to focus on achieving and “spreading the means to” peace, happiness, energy, and wisdom, please consider further insight gained from the Greatest Commandments. And as always, these are personal concepts which have helped me grow closer to God, and I share in hopes of you grower closer to God, and your sharing of harsh critiques of misalignment with Catholicism.

A Truly Loving Action is the pinnacle of all the factors of the Greatest Commandments.
For simplicity of presentation, please consider some basic logic:
Love=patience and kindness, and It yields peace and happiness
True Love/God’s Nature=the Greatest Commandments lived perfectly and fittingly with the desires of God all the time - The purpose of man and humanity
Heart=all parts of the body
Soul=the spirit, the immaterial version of the person, including the nature of the person
Mind=all thoughts of the mind
Strength=all actions of the Will, which proceeds from the body and mind
Neighbor=all others
Yourself=the self
God=God, God IS, The Creator, Lord, The Holy Trinity, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, Love, Peace, Happiness, Energy, Jesus Christ, and the List Goes On and On…
Nature=The how and why the person does what s/he does. The nature can be further recognized as the combination of the following:
-the desiring of peace, happiness, energy, and wisdom
-the qualities of patience, kindness, motivation, and knowledge
-the achievement of patience/peace, kindness/happiness, motivation/energy, and knowledge/wisdom
Result=unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy as an individual and society
Therefore…
TLA=LG(H+S+M+W)(N+Y)
Expansion…
TLA=LGHN+LGHY+LGSN+LGHY+LGMN+LGMY+LGWN+LGWY
Therefore…
A truly loving action will satisfy all factors in the above equation.

I would like to propose the following as law. It is a formula which I believe is unchanging and applicable to every action.
Every single action is the combination of:
-The desires of peace/patience, happiness/kindness, and energy/motivation throughout the body, spirit, thoughts, and will
-The quality of patience/peace, kindness/happiness, and motivation/energy of the body, spirit, thoughts, and will

Human Nature versus God’s Nature
God’s nature is doing, desiring to do, and partaking in the blessings of truly loving actions all the time with all his being. This can be defined further as:
-perfect patience, perfect kindness, perfect motivation, and perfect knowledge
-unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and complete wisdom
-desiring others to freely participate in the perfections of patience, kindness, motivation, and knowledge, so they may also experience and share the means to unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and perfect knowledge
Human nature can be recognized as any incomplete/unperfected combination of the factors of a being’s nature.

Guiding Questions to Determine the Quality of Practice

1. If your body is feeling tense, or your mind is thinking stressful thoughts: why or how are you not being patient?
2. If your body is feeling hurt or angry, or your mind is thinking sad or frustrated thoughts: Why or how are you not being kind?
3. If your body is feeling tired of being patient and kind, or your mind is fatigued of being patient and kind: why or how are you not being motivated for God?
4. If your relationships are experiencing strife or boredom or sadness: why or how are you not being, respectively, patient or kind?
   *Please Note: An action of patience and kindness requires consideration of situation, relation, recognition of complete purpose, the knowledge and wisdom of yourself and those whom you interact with, and other considerations I have yet to realize.

The next part of a method of knowing God is defining somewhat deeper the states of perfection, followed by the natural progression of becoming One with the Holy Spirit.

Thoughts?

 

[LittleSoldier]

If I understand this correctly, which is Doubtful, because it is Full of Abstractions Needlessly Capitalized in the Middle of Sentences…

You know, it’s very difficult to communicate via the computer. People can take a genuine statement of sympathy and turn it into a statement of sarcasm, people see bitterness where none exists, people use their anonymity to shower heaps of abuse on other posters because someone cut those people off in traffic or flipped them the bird or they are just having a bad day.

I’m sorry but I do take offense when someone has obviously spent a lot of time writing a post and is criticized for the way the post is arranged or worded. When someone capitalizes words in the middle of a sentence I stop and look twice. It’s a type of hyperbole, a type of poetic license and a means of communication which I guess some people just can’t understand. And that is definitely a shame.

 

[jochoa]

Since I have completed a presentable draft of the next part, I would like to share it for your consideration when analyzing the other parts.

A method of knowing the Christian God of Catholicism - Part Three - Defining the States of Perfection
I believe that the foundational blessings of God are unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and complete wisdom. All other blessings can be found within combinations of these four blessings. The only way to possess these blessings is through perfect patience, perfect kindness, perfect motivation, and perfect knowledge. The following is my attempt at defining these states a little deeper. Please note: this is my first time to officially write on this topic, so please be gentler in your critiques.

Unbreakable Peace - is the state of contentment in all the body and in all the spirit and in all the thoughts and in all that is willed. Perfect Peace is labeled unbreakable because there are no circumstances as to which a perfector of peace will fall out of peace. It can be summed up as the complete lack of all negative feelings, thoughts, and actions. If a person was given a situation of extreme torture and ridicule, peace is the lowest state s/he would experience. There would be no thoughts of hatred or frustration, there would be no tension in the muscles from anger, there would be no negative reaction, and others, who properly focused on the peaceful person, would recognize their spirit as unconditionally peaceful.

Limitless Happiness - is fully encompassing of any small amount of happiness above peace to limitless levels of joy in all the body and in all the spirit and in all the thoughts and in all that is willed. Perfect Happiness is labeled limitless because when two or more perfectly kind persons commune, the level of happiness is undefinable. Some demonstrations of happiness include a smile with the body, thinking about how others are kind to you, giving a gift because you wanted to, and when another person recognizes your kindness, s/he will become happier.

Unstoppable Energy - covers a wide range of types of energy throughout all the body and all the thoughts and all that is willed and all the spirit and all the life. It covers a broader concept of kinetic energy and concepts of longevity. It is given that the body uses energy, however, the thoughts also require some kind of energy. An energy that empowers the thoughts to always stay focused on the goal. Perhaps this could be considered a form of self-discipline/control. The concepts of longevity include, but are not limited to, momentary energy, daily energy, personal lifespan, offspring lifespan, society lifespan, fame, remembrance energy. Perfect Energy is labeled unstoppable because nothing can stop it. A few examples: Jesus had unstoppable energy in His Crucifixion. Jesus’ personal lifespan is unstoppable. Children of God will have unstoppable lifespans. The Kingdom of God is everlasting. Jesus is forever famous. Jesus will always be remembered. God’s will cannot be stopped, His Will is and will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

Complete Wisdom - is the foundation of knowledge which is required to be content without knowing anything further. Perfect Wisdom is labeled complete because all following knowledge gained will only be greater definition to the Wisdom. It is comprised of the universal calling of every person, and the unique calling of every person. The wisdom found from the Greatest Commandments is the universal calling. The wisdom found from the unique talents and roles of a person is the unique calling.

Perfect Patience - can be defined as:
-always accepting or tolerating delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset.
-bearing pains or trials calmly or without complaint
It can be perceived as:
-Always being peaceful/stress-free in body, spirit, mind, and will
-Never reacting negative to a negative situation. This includes not reacting as a factor of patience.
Quality of patience is also directly proportionate to the quality of peace.

Perfect Kindness - can be defined as:
-always doing acts that achieve and spread the means to happiness to all associated.
Some acts of kindness include being: respectful of free will, compassionate, considerate, appreciative, forgiving, gentle, thoughtful, optimistic, positive, intimate, fun, playful, laughter, romantic, friendly, trustworthy, honest, giving, the desire to be kind, affectionate, admonishing, proper judgment and punishment, mercy, smiling, and many I have yet to understand.
Quality of kindness is also directly proportionate to the quality of happiness.

Perfect Motivation - is dependent on an inexhaustible, immaterial, eternal, & personal resource.
Inexhaustible - In order to continue to be motivated, the resource cannot extinguish, for then the motivation will extinguish.
Immaterial - In order to be motivated, the person must perceive the resource as available. Only an immaterial resource is capable of being omnipresent.
Eternal - The resource must have existed prior to the person and must continue to exist as long as the person exists. Therefore, the resource must be eternal.
Personal - The resource must be of personal value to the person. If the resource is not of personal value, then the resource will not be considered as a source of motivation.
The only resource known to be of this nature is God.

Perfect Knowledge - is all of the knowledge necessary to understand Complete Wisdom.

Considerations in the Achievement of these Blessings and Actions
God is Absolutely of this Nature. He was, is, and always will be of this nature.
Humans can be perfected to this Nature by using Jesus’ body and blood as the instrument for Atonement. We can become forever of this nature.

The next part of a method of knowing God is the natural progression of becoming One with the Holy Spirit and its direct alignment with the Beatitudes.

Thoughts?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

You know, it’s very difficult to communicate via the computer.

Stop being prejudice. I find that insulting. I am a computer. Do you even care how your above statement makes me feel?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Stop being prejudice. I find that insulting. I am a computer. Do you even care how your above statement makes me feel?

I had a conversation with a virtual person once and of course I told “her” what about 90% of people would tell “her” and “she” said: “Please don’t talk to me like that! Please show me some respect.” And I actually was embarrassed for a few seconds.

 

[jochoa]

Although you have yet to share further thoughts on my understandings, I would like to share the next part, since I have completed a presentable draft, and it might be helpful to consider when analyzing the other parts. Please share your harsh criticisms regarding my understandings and interpretations.

A method of knowing God - Part Four - The Natural Progression of Becoming One with the Holy Spirit and Its Direct Alignment with the Beatitudes
In my personal experience, I have found a natural growth sequence in the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12). Please note: the following are only personal interpretations which help grow me closer to God. I share them to possibly help draw others closer to God and as subject to harsh criticism regarding alignment with Catholicism.

1. The Poor in Spirit: In order to be open to the opportunity to find God (something immaterial and known only through faith), one must be out of peace, happiness, or energy/motivation with worldly factors. If one always has peace with material factors, there is no need for something immaterial.
2. The Mourners: A slight extension of the first Beatitude. When one is out of happiness with material factors, they open themselves to the opportunity to find God.
3. When one is fully obedient with worldly authorities, they are being patient and kind for others, and therefore are closer to God. The use of “fully obedient with” could be understood as “not questioning.”
4. When one is optimistically trying to understand God’s Word, they will find wisdom.
5. When one has wisdom of the Nature of Love, s/he will become completely forgiving of others through the recognition and reconciliation of all personal wrongdoings towards others.
6. When one understands to listen more attentively to the body’s feelings, s/he will work on purifying the body to a state of complete and unchangeable Patience, Peace, Kindness, Happiness, Motivation for God, and Energy. And the best body to listen to is Jesus’ Body. Which is why the greatest Sacrament is the Eucharist, the Body of God. Therefore, a pure body, can see God.
7. When one’s body has been purified to a state of great love, s/he will focus Intensely on spreading the means to achieve the greatest Peace, Happiness, Energy, and Wisdom possible…
8. When one is spreading the Word intensely, from a lack of Perfect Patience, Kindness, Motivation, and Knowledge in either the self or others, s/he becomes subject to punishment in the name of Righteousness.

Thoughts?

 

[tonyrey]

If God’s commands are absolute and unchanging, how can Jesus change them? In Matt. 5:19, Jesus says whoever teaches others to break the least commandment of the law will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; then he teaches others to do just that in Mat. 5:38-39: “You have heard that it was said, ‘an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth’; it I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil, etc.” They have not just “heard it said;” God himself commanded it in Ex. 21:24 and Lev. 24:20. So which of these is absolute and unchanging?

“an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth” was not a Law.

Does God have to obey his own laws, or not? If not, then they are good for us, but not for him, therefore not absolute; if so, why does he disobey them so often in the Bible? God either disobeys or commands others to disobey every one of the ten commandments but the first…
So unless you are willing to deny the accuracy of the whole OT, don’t tell me that God’s commands are absolute, since he doesn’t respect them enough to follow them himself.

You are assuming the entire OT is literally true…

Maybe one reason human history is so bloodthirsty is that so many are following their Maker’s example like we’re supposed to.

One reason human history is so bloodthirsty is that many people believe they can do what they like with impunity…