The problems related self/soul

[Bahman]

There are several phenomena that we related them to self/soul, such as consciousness, creativity, logical thinking, free will, memory, etc.

Our body is subject of change but self. Some of this phenomena however are affected by ageing or brain damage, such as memory, logical thinking, creativity. The relevant question is why and how these phenomena could be subject of change if they are related to self.

 

[thequietsinger]

There are several phenomena that we related them to self/soul, such as consciousness, creativity, logical thinking, free will, memory, etc.

Our body is subject of change but self. Some of this phenomena however are affected by ageing or brain damage, such as memory, logical thinking, creativity. The relevant question is why and how these phenomena could be subject of change if they are related to self.

I do have an answer, but if I am incorrect, forgive me. Those phenomena, logical thinking, creativity, etc., wear down as we do. When we are young, we are in school, right? Well, in school/college, we have to use logical thinking, creativity, and memory every day. Actually, we rely on those three things to get good grades and make it through the school year. We use them, or should be using them every day. What happens when we are finished with school/college? Well, it’s off to the work force. There, you will do your job, and learn the skills needed, but after that, you will need (more than likely) no further instruction, until promotion time. So, the only thing you would technically use would be your memory, and logical thinking. Where does creativity go? To the back fence, because you aren’t using it. When the time comes to use it, you will probably find that you aren’t as creative as you used to be, because you haven’t used your creative side in so long. It develops a rust of sorts, in which, by self, it has changed. You are the only one who can use your creative side. Not to sound rude, but if you don’t use it, then that’s on you. That is one example/scenario of how those phenomena can be changed, because they are related to self.

 

[RoseMary131]

There are several phenomena that we related them to self/soul, such as consciousness, creativity, logical thinking, free will, memory, etc.

Our body is subject of change but self. Some of this phenomena however are affected by ageing or brain damage, such as memory, logical thinking, creativity. The relevant question is why and how these phenomena could be subject of change if they are related to self.

Keep in mind, Bahman, that many of the answers you receive on CAF will be based on the Theology of the Catholic Church with the Christian God as the Beginning.

As you “have problems” with the Christian God and do not believe in praying, and these answers most likely will start with the basis of this God, I expect you will reject them.

Your quest to know self, creation and Self (as you call God) while not accepting any faith (as you write), will once again most likely cause you to reject the information others on the Catholic forum share with you.

 

[Bahman]

Keep in mind, Bahman, that many of the answers you receive on CAF will be based on the Theology of the Catholic Church with the Christian God as the Beginning.

As you “have problems” with the Christian God and do not believe in praying, and these answers most likely will start with the basis of this God, I expect you will reject them.

Your quest to know self, creation and Self (as you call God) while not accepting any faith (as you write), will once again most likely cause you to reject the information others on the Catholic forum share with you.

I understand what do you said. But I think we have something in common. So it would be nice if I could know what is your opinion on this regards.

 

[Bahman]

I do have an answer, but if I am incorrect, forgive me. Those phenomena, logical thinking, creativity, etc., wear down as we do. When we are young, we are in school, right? Well, in school/college, we have to use logical thinking, creativity, and memory every day. Actually, we rely on those three things to get good grades and make it through the school year. We use them, or should be using them every day. What happens when we are finished with school/college? Well, it’s off to the work force. There, you will do your job, and learn the skills needed, but after that, you will need (more than likely) no further instruction, until promotion time. So, the only thing you would technically use would be your memory, and logical thinking. Where does creativity go? To the back fence, because you aren’t using it. When the time comes to use it, you will probably find that you aren’t as creative as you used to be, because you haven’t used your creative side in so long. It develops a rust of sorts, in which, by self, it has changed. You are the only one who can use your creative side. Not to sound rude, but if you don’t use it, then that’s on you. That is one example/scenario of how those phenomena can be changed, because they are related to self.

Thank you very much for your writing.

To my understanding, self does not change as our bodies change. Even if we accept that this changes as you mention apply to self then we are facing with a problem that what is the purpose of suffering for learning everything. At the end we forget everything, so why mind trying to learn anything.

 

[RoseMary131]

There are several phenomena that we related them to self/soul, such as consciousness, creativity, logical thinking, free will, memory, etc.

Our body is subject of change but self. Some of this phenomena however are affected by ageing or brain damage, such as memory, logical thinking, creativity. The relevant question is why and how these phenomena could be subject of change if they are related to self.

From Catholic teaching of soul and science teachings of brain function:

-consciousness does not come under the “functions” of soul, but from the brain stem

• creativity does not come under the “functions” of soul, but from the right cerebral hemisphere

-logical thinking does not come under the “functions” of soul, but from the left cerebral hemisphere

-free will (free will is about making one’s own decision - not being forced by another - not by another person - or not by another Spirit.) The left cerebral hemisphere is important for logic and rational thinking. (God allows us to use our own logic and thinking to make our own decisions - that is free will.)

-memory does not come under the “function” of soul but from the temporal lobes

These functions you listed are related to the design of the human body. They are not related to the human soul.

The soul and the human body are not the same.

Together the soul and body and mind - makes the human person.

The word soul can be interchanged with the word spirit - we are mind, body, and spirit.

Bahman: The relevant question is why and how these phenomena could be subject of change if they are related to self.

The answer to your question is these are functions of the human brain not of the human soul. Functions of the human body, including the human brain, are subject to change.

(I don’t know what “self” refers to as you write it. From your thread title, it seems you interchange “self” with “soul”.)

What is your answer to your question?

 

[RoseMary131]

what is the purpose of suffering for learning everything. At the end we forget everything, so why mind trying to learn anything.

What is your purpose for learning anything?

What do you do with your knowledge?

What have you learned… did you learn to walk, did you learn to read, did you learn to use the computer? Are there other things you learned? What is your purpose for learning anything?

When is “the end”?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

There are several phenomena that we related them to self/soul, such as consciousness, creativity, logical thinking, free will, memory, etc.

Our body is subject of change but self. Some of this phenomena however are affected by ageing or brain damage, such as memory, logical thinking, creativity. The relevant question is why and how these phenomena could be subject of change if they are related to self.

We are a single being, composed of body and soul. The soul is the form of the body and, as such, directs all its activities, including the ones you mentioned above. In our view, the " self " is what we call the person. It is the person who does all the activities of the human being, all the physical and all the non-physical. Although the non-physical activities of thinking, reasoning, etc takes place in the intellect and will ( mind ), which are powers of the soul, not of the body.

But the soul depends on the body for its functioning, for its learning. That is why when the body ages or gets sick, our mental processes experience a decline.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

From Catholic teaching of soul and science teachings of brain function:

-consciousness does not come under the “functions” of soul, but from the brain stem

• creativity does not come under the “functions” of soul, but from the right cerebral hemisphere

-logical thinking does not come under the “functions” of soul, but from the left cerebral hemisphere

-free will (free will is about making one’s own decision - not being forced by another - not by another person - or not by another Spirit.) The left cerebral hemisphere is important for logic and rational thinking. (God allows us to use our own logic and thinking to make our own decisions - that is free will.)

-memory does not come under the “function” of soul but from the temporal lobes

These functions you listed are related to the design of the human body. They are not related to the human soul.

The soul and the human body are not the same.

Together the soul and body and mind - makes the human person.

The word soul can be interchanged with the word spirit - we are mind, body, and spirit.

Bahman: The relevant question is why and how these phenomena could be subject of change if they are related to self.

The answer to your question is these are functions of the human brain not of the human soul. Functions of the human body, including the human brain, are subject to change.

(I don’t know what “self” refers to as you write it. From your thread title, it seems you interchange “self” with “soul”.)

What is your answer to your question?

So what is the purpose of having soul/self then if everything could be defined by brain functioning?

 

[Bahman]

What is your purpose for learning anything?

That was my question. What would be the purpose of learning if we forget them all at the old age, including our names, most importantly our identity. If all these functioning depends on brain then they all vanish at the death time, what is left is a useless soul, which I don’t know what is its functioning before and after death.

What do you do with your knowledge?

I know what I am doing with my knowledge right now. I just know that most of the thing that I call it knowledge will be forgotten at old age anyhow.

What have you learned… did you learn to walk, did you learn to read, did you learn to use the computer? Are there other things you learned? What is your purpose for learning anything?

What purpose is better than knowing the truth.

When is “the end”?

There is no end in my opinion. You and your definition of human however define an end for human being at time of death since soul in your definition is completely an irrelevant thing.

 

[thequietsinger]

Thank you very much for your writing.

To my understanding, self does not change as our bodies change. Even if we accept that this changes as you mention apply to self then we are facing with a problem that what is the purpose of suffering for learning everything. At the end we forget everything, so why mind trying to learn anything.

What do you mean by “at the end we forget everything”? How do you know that we forget everything? Our soul is our essence; it makes us, us. There isn’t anyone out there exactly like you or me, because no one has ever been in all of our situations, nor do they think like we do.

I am one to immerse my self in new information, new surroundings, because we only get to live this life once. Whether I forget everything before/after I die or not won’t have any bearing on that.

 

[RoseMary131]

So what is the purpose of having soul/self then if everything could be defined by brain functioning?

Who said everything is defined by brain function?

 

[RoseMary131]

Originally Posted by RoseMary131 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*What is your purpose for learning anything? *

That was my question. What would be the purpose of learning if we forget them all at the old age, including our names, most importantly our identity.

Not everyone dies at an old age. I know lots of people who have died - and died without forgetting all that they learned - and knew their name and themselves.

Are you talking about people who suffer from Alzheimer’s Disease or other forms of dementia? Forms of dementia, including Alzheimer, are very sad.

However, simply because a person develops this disease, it does not mean their lives were useless while they were not suffering this illness that adversely affect their communication, memory, etc., nor is their life useless while they live with the disease.

If all these functioning depends on brain then they all vanish at the death time, what is left is a useless soul, which I don’t know what is its functioning before and after death.

When a person dies, their body dies. Catholic teaching is their soul lives for eternity, as the soul is immortal. Their bodies will be re-united to their body at a later time. soul.http://www.catholic.com/tracts/resurrection-of-the-body

Maybe one of your questions on your quest is to know what is the function of a soul before and after death? Where have you searched for this knowledge?

I know what I am doing with my knowledge right now. I just know that most of the thing that I call it knowledge will be forgotten at old age anyhow.

Do you know you will live to an old age? Are you using your knowledge right now? How do you know that most of the things you call knowledge will be forgotten at old age?

                 Originally Posted by **RoseMary131**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11248391#post11248391)                 
             *What is your purpose for learning  anything? *

What purpose is better than knowing the truth.

If truth is your purpose for learning anything - then continue finding the Truth - without allowing your own understanding block you from hearing something at the moment you do not grasp. We all learn by bringing in something we did not already know - without blocking the new information because it was previously unknown to us.

There is no end in my opinion. You and your definition of human however define an end for human being at time of death since soul in your definition is completely an irrelevant thing.

When did I define an end to human being as the time of the death of the body?

When did I define soul as an irrelevant thing?

 

[Bahman]

What do you mean by “at the end we forget everything”? How do you know that we forget everything? Our soul is our essence; it makes us, us. There isn’t anyone out there exactly like you or me, because no one has ever been in all of our situations, nor do they think like we do.

I am one to immerse my self in new information, new surroundings, because we only get to live this life once. Whether I forget everything before/after I die or not won’t have any bearing on that.

First, soul doesn’t get old like our body, second we forget thing as we age, in some extreme case we could get alzheimer and we then have many mental dysfunction in late stage of disease. If our soul is our essence then how we could have mental dysfunction.

 

[Bahman]

Who said everything is defined by brain function?

You in your long post #6 mentioned and assigned a part of brain to a specific functioning.

 

[Bahman]

Not everyone dies at an old age. I know lots of people who have died - and died without forgetting all that they learned - and knew their name and themselves.

Are you talking about people who suffer from Alzheimer’s Disease or other forms of dementia? Forms of dementia, including Alzheimer, are very sad.

However, simply because a person develops this disease, it does not mean their lives were useless while they were not suffering this illness that adversely affect their communication, memory, etc., nor is their life useless while they live with the disease.

When a person dies, their body dies. Catholic teaching is their soul lives for eternity, as the soul is immortal. Their bodies will be re-united to their body at a later time. soul.http://www.catholic.com/tracts/resurrection-of-the-body

Maybe one of your questions on your quest is to know what is the function of a soul before and after death? Where have you searched for this knowledge?

Do you know you will live to an old age? Are you using your knowledge right now? How do you know that most of the things you call knowledge will be forgotten at old age?

If truth is your purpose for learning anything - then continue finding the Truth - without allowing your own understanding block you from hearing something at the moment you do not grasp. We all learn by bringing in something we did not already know - without blocking the new information because it was previously unknown to us.

When did I define an end to human being as the time of the death of the body?

When did I define soul as an irrelevant thing?

I have two simple questions for you: First, if soul is the essence why we have mental dysfunction when we have brain problem? Second, what is the brain functioning if the main mental process is performed by soul?

 

[RoseMary131]

Originally Posted by RoseMary131 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Who said everything is defined by brain function? *

You in your long post #6 mentioned and assigned a part of brain to a specific functioning.

I did not say “everything” is defined by brain function.

My long post #6 gave you science’s assigned part of the brain to the specific functions you said were assigned to the soul.

My post was to show you that what you assigned to the soul is assigned by science to brain function.

 

[kmcarl56]

You are very mistaken. At the end we remember everything, every little thing we have ever done, every thought that ever crossed our minds, every word that came from our mouths. How do I know this? Because we will all have to do so when we face God our Father on our judgement day.

The actions and emotions that you depict are a result of knowledge and growth, the aging process. I have known people whose physical body is no longer working properly, but their minds are as sharp as it every once was, or even more so. Others I have known whose bodies are physically well, but their minds are losing their sharpness. They become forgetful and dysfunctional.

Moreover, you leave out the conditions of living completely. If one has led a life of ease both physically and mentally, then there is greater chance of that person maintaining that in older age. If one has had a life of misery and pain, there is a greater chance of that person wanting to forget their dysfunctional life.

Thus, your generalizations have no basis, no foundation

Irregardless, one’s soul is God’s place, the place where the Holy Spirit thrives within us. God knows all of our thoughts, emotions, actions, and reactions. He knows every word we speak and every thought that crosses our minds.

Self and soul cannot measured in the same manner. Self is physical. Soul is spiritual.

 

[Bahman]

RoseMary131:
I did not say “everything” is defined by brain function.

My long post #6 gave you science’s assigned part of the brain to the specific functions you said were assigned to the soul.

My post was to show you that what you assigned to the soul is assigned by science to brain function.

You didn’t answer me that what is brain functioning then if everything is comprehended by soul?

 

[Bahman]

You are very mistaken. At the end we remember everything, every little thing we have ever done, every thought that ever crossed our minds, every word that came from our mouths. How do I know this? Because we will all have to do so when we face God our Father on our judgement day.

First, what do you mean by the end? You mean the death time? How we retrieve the information which is lost due to ageing.

Moreover, you leave out the conditions of living completely. If one has led a life of ease both physically and mentally, then there is greater chance of that person maintaining that in older age. If one has had a life of misery and pain, there is a greater chance of that person wanting to forget their dysfunctional life. Thus, your generalizations have no basis, no foundation.

You just need one counter example to show that there is a misunderstanding in what we call brain and soul functioning. Consider one severe case of Alzheimer that person lose his/her self identity at very late stage. The fact that one case exist means that there is a problem in our understanding brain and mind problem.