"The Promise of a Post-Covid Church"

[SlavaIsusuChristu]

You would not have been happy with the overly judgemental early Church Fathers then. Or the first millennium of Christianity. The church had men (oftentimes the parish deacon) who would guard the doors of the Church and scan the crowd for those they didn’t recognize to confront them and kick them out by force if necessary. While this started due to Roman persecution, it continued on in the Liturgy for centuries (the Orthodox still have this in their Liturgy today). If you were a known sinner you would not be admitted to the Mysteries/Sacraments until you were reconciled to the priest (by way of confession and oftentimes public penance). That must be horribly judgmental and a violation of your understanding of these Scriptural verses. What would these men know? They were only direct disciples of the Apostles, after all.

Forgive the sarcasm. It’s intentional but not intended as an attack on you personally. Your comments reminded me of the picture that has Matthew 7 that says, “Do not judge” then the entire rest of the book has a black line running through it. We are not called to judge someone’s soul (saying this individual person is going to hell). That is for God to do. We, being our brother’s keepers, are called to judge one another’s actions. The Church is absolutely a hospital of sinners. But the unrepentant have no place within it. That is not a lack of love or mercy. We can pray for these people and try to reach them outside of Church wherever they are at in the world and try to bring them to the faith. But if they already know the faith and choose to deny certain aspects because it conflicts with how they want to live their life, then they have no place inside God’s Church. Don’t place so much emphasis on God’s mercy that you forget His justice.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t care for this analogy. It shows that you actively worked at something that did not come naturally to you.

Would it have been more natural had I spent the year bucking 100 lb bales onto a wagon four feet in the air? Would it have been more natural had I spent the year behind a plow I had to constantly push into the ground and hold steady when it hit rocks an uneven soil? Would it have been more natural had I spent the year building a barn without any mechanical aids at all?

It’s quite natural for people to do strenuous things. Most of us are built to develop the capacity to do physically difficult things.

That is completely different that the multitude of “takers” who maybe go to Mass once a year and do nothing else to grow in their faith.

Better than nothing. Perhaps epiphany will eventually strike them. Perhaps with some it already has, but they’re embarrassed to be overt about it…just yet.

I don’t think “converted” is the word you are looking for, as Biden is a baptized Catholic and therefore cannot convert

I’m not a theologian, but I have many times heard the term “converted” used reelative to Catholics who experienced a true change of heart.

allowed to receive

I didn’t go that far, and I don’t.

The majority of Roman Catholics in the West have no problem with artificial contraception,

I remember some historian (might have been Alistair Cooke) saying that compared to people in the High Middle Ages and Renaissance, moderns “neither sin well nor repent well”.

There’s truth in that. Better to sin in full acceptance of the fact we are sinning. Then, when conscience prompts, we can repent and will likely do it well. Moderns do not admit they are sinning to begin with and therefore do not repent.

Artificial contraception is sinful. What amazes me is that so many Catholics prefer to deny it instead of confessing it and resolving to amend.

 

[DivineMercy01]

Would it have been more natural had I spent the year bucking 100 lb bales onto a wagon four feet in the air? Would it have been more natural had I spent the year behind a plow I had to constantly push into the ground and hold steady when it hit rocks an uneven soil? Would it have been more natural had I spent the year building a barn without any mechanical aids at all?

I really think you are missing the point. My point is that you working hard at being more athletic when it does not come naturally to you is not even comparable to the multitude of “takers” who abuse the Eucharist by receiving and then going out and living a life of mortal sin (I.e. cohabitation, contraception, campaigning for Biden, etc.) You are comparing apples and oranges here. The analogy is a poor one.

Better than nothing. Perhaps epiphany will eventually strike them. Perhaps with some it already has, but they’re embarrassed to be overt about it…just yet.

Saying that someone attending Mass once annually or once a week then going out and campaigning for a pro-abortion candidate is “better than nothing” is like saying theft of $100,000 is better than murder. The former is a less serious crime but still a felony. Less serious does not make it permissible. Or commendable, which you seem to be implying that attending Mass once annually is.

I didn’t go that far, and I don’t.

Maybe you wouldn’t, but if all Catholics keep on with this “better than nothing” approach you seem to be advocating for, the norm will come to that: “Biden Catholics” will be allowed to receive the body of Christ at their convenience.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’d like to know more about these “Social Privileges” I allegedly have as a Catholic, according to that article author. It’s news to me, unless they mean the privilege of listening to people mostly talk trash about the Church and its alleged misogyny and “pedophile priests” all day.

 

[Weserthy]

I don’t think anyone in this thread is advocating for a literal “purge” of lukewarm Catholics from the Church, meaning, actively hunting people down and encouraging them not to come to mass anymore. That would obviously be wrong. The point is that masses being cancelled and/or dispensations being in place for so long is effectively going to cause a permanent decrease in weekly mass attendance among people who were most likely weren’t too engaged in their faith, and may have even been considering leaving the Church or forgoing mass attendance even before the pandemic hit. This isn’t something that people are advocating, or encouraging; it’s just an observation of reality - a significant number of people are going to stop attending weekly mass even after things are back to normal. Even numerous bishops and priests have commented on this being the most likely scenario. Some places will be hit harder than others. Maybe some parishes won’t see a significant decrease. But others will. And while it is never a good thing for an individual to stop attending mass, as a whole the Church may benefit in some ways with a more faithful core of individuals present, where there may be more unity of belief than before with people who attend mass, but don’t identify as Catholic in any other meaningful way.

My parish used to have about 600 people at the highest attended mass on Sundays. Now there is a limit of 100 people (though it may be increasing soon). As of yet we haven’t yet hit the 100 person limit; I think the most has been about 60-70. Will the rest come back when the dispensation is lifted? I don’t know, but it’s not looking good. I am told that financially the parish is pulling in about 80% per week of what it was doing pre-covid, which isn’t bad, but they’ve still had to reduce hours of staff and furlough some people, and it’s up in the air if everyone is coming back when this is finally over. I imagine many other parishes are in similar situations. But I think those that stay will be stronger in their faith. It’s not a matter of lifting yourself above others, it’s simply about using a bit of logic when observing the trends and demographics in the Church in recent decades.

 

[vz71]

I would suggest caution in wishing for a culled Church lest one might find themself among the culled.

No one that wants to be part of the church is going to be culled.
The culling that appears to be spoken of here is the mass exodus of people that do not actually want to live the life.

I am on the fence as far as this goes. I would rather people stay, lukewarm though they may be. It just seems to me that someone finally walking out closes doors that do not need to be shut and that are even harder to reopen once shut.
That said, there needs to be some measure made to reduce the ability of these weak Catholics from influencing their local church.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

the mass exodus of people that do not actually want to live the life.

Fortunately, the Church will leave its door open for the people in that group who will change their minds down the road, even if they are on their death beds when they do.

 

[felsguy]

felsguy:

I would suggest caution in wishing for a culled Church lest one might find themself among the culled.

No one that wants to be part of the church is going to be culled.
The culling that appears to be spoken of here is the mass exodus of people that do not actually want to live the life.

I am on the fence as far as this goes. I would rather people stay, lukewarm though they may be. It just seems to me that someone finally walking out closes doors that do not need to be shut and that are even harder to reopen once shut.
That said, there needs to be some measure made to reduce the ability of these weak Catholics from influencing their local church.

My comment was in response to the post wishing that individuals who are deemed unworthy or unsuitable (my words, not the poster’s) to remain in the Church be culled. That would require that a line be drawn or a standard be set to determine who may remain and who is to be culled. Sure would be mighty ironic to say the least for someone who advocates this if it were to come to be only to find that they did not qualify to be in the remnant.

 

[SlavaIsusuChristu]

Our diocesan parish has two masses, one english and one spanish. They are both said outside in the parking lot. The english mass has gotten maybe 20-30 people (including those who stay in their car) on a weekly basis and the overwhelming majority of people are really old (like 60s-80s). No offense to our older members on the forum! This isn’t a disparaging remark. Things are a little better with the spanish mass but both have lost drastic numbers in attendance and the parish is asking for financial contributions online since they aren’t making anywhere near the money they were used too (and we were already struggling to keep the school open). The young people at our parish had all but vanished anyhow. The demographics were always exceptionally older but now even more so. If this pandemic continues much longer I don’t know if either of our two roman parishes in town will survive.

 

[jack63]

Interesting article…my experience was the same as many others. They used to have sign ups for church, and soon realized the sign ups were not needed. People weren’t coming back. On some level it maybe fear of Covid…who wants to cough for months… All of the social aspects of church are basically gone too…

So will people return? What will change? Some thoughts of mine…

1. The concept of a “student parish” may disappear altogether. Students packed into crowed dorms, houses, and classes in a single over crowded over priced university town. Over the next few years, society is going to really rethink this. Society should rethink this. There may be another Covid-like virus. Historically, this is what happened in the late 1950s and 1960s. The massive flu from the late 1960s was a mutation of the massive flu from the late 1950s. Both of these flus individually killed more in the US than Covid as a percentage of the US population at the time. Society has decided this is no longer acceptable. What happens to Universities? What happens to the University Parish?
2. Priests and religious in retirement homes…This has been and epic and horrifying disaster. Covid caused the death of 13 sisters in single convent in Michigan. Dozens of priests died in retirement homes in Italy from Covid. How do we stop this from happening? This solution didn’t work. Other solutions are far more expensive or mean priests have their own families to look after them as they get older.
3. People may likely get more religious. I remember talking to a friend. I was talking to her about faith. Her response was…Jack(not my real name)…death is so far away and life is so good now. I’ll worry about what you’re talking about later. Death is a closer today. People realize “Science” doesn’t really protect us…did it ever?!

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

they will be able to handle being a countercultural minority

BTW and a bit off topic, but skeptics get real mad when Christians call themselves countercultural.

Not that they’re the boss of me, but they hate it

 

[Motherwit]

You would not have been happy with the overly judgemental early Church Fathers then. Or the first millennium of Christianity. The church had men (oftentimes the parish deacon) who would guard the doors of the Church and scan the crowd for those they didn’t recognize to confront them and kick them out by force if necessary. While this started due to Roman persecution, it continued on in the Liturgy for centuries (the Orthodox still have this in their Liturgy today). If you were a known sinner you would not be admitted to the Mysteries/Sacraments until you were reconciled to the priest (by way of confession and oftentimes public penance). That must be horribly judgmental and a violation of your understanding of these Scriptural verses. What would these men know? They were only direct disciples of the Apostles, after all.

As a general rule, I don’t listen to the different armchair historians that cite the early Church or the medieval Church to promote an agenda that is foreign to my experience of Scripture and tradition. I listen to the Church and as Pope John XXIII said the Church used to use harsh methods at times but they don’t bear good fruit. The Church needs to more closely follow the way of Christ and His ‘medicine of mercy’.

Forgive the sarcasm. It’s intentional but not intended as an attack on you personally. Your comments reminded me of the picture that has Matthew 7 that says, “Do not judge” then the entire rest of the book has a black line running through it.

You don’t know me. I can tell you this much though. I am 100% faithful to the Church and her teachings and to the Jesus of the Scripture.

We are not called to judge someone’s soul (saying this individual person is going to hell). That is for God to do. We, being our brother’s keepers, are called to judge one another’s actions. The Church is absolutely a hospital of sinners. But the unrepentant have no place within it.

How can you know another persons soul to call them unrepentant and kick them out?

We can pray for these people and try to reach them outside of Church wherever they are at in the world and try to bring them to the faith.

How will you be able to read their soul and know that they are repentant so they can come in to the Church?

But if they already know the faith and choose to deny certain aspects because it conflicts with how they want to live their life, then they have no place inside God’s Church.

Faith isn’t mere knowledge. Faith is a gift from God. It’s a sacred thing and woe betide us who think we have some divine right to dictate that untouchable relationship between another person and God.

 

[Motherwit]

Don’t place so much emphasis on God’s mercy that you forget His justice.

I’m just following the Church and the Gospel which unequivocally tells me I must be merciful and unequivocally tell me not to judge others.

 

[SlavaIsusuChristu]

That’s where you’re wrong though. We “are” commanded to judge others. We are not to judge their souls, “Such and such a person is in Hell”. That is what Scriptures speaks against. We “are” called to judge one another’s actions. If a high profile very public figure (I used pelosi because it was easy to make my point with) who is continuing her very public push for abortion, we don’t need to guess her interior disposition to know she is in an active state of mortal sin and cannot be allowed communion. Until she rejects the abortion platform and stops promoting this evil, she should not be allowed communion. Or do you hold the opinion that is more and more common in the contemporary church that it is better for people in a state of mortal sin to receive the Eucharist anyways, in order to get the grace they need to turn from sin? I know people personally who hold this position. It’s ridiculous but I can’t fault them for it. This is the state of the Roman Church and what passes for catechesis these days.

 

[SlavaIsusuChristu]

“As a general rule, I don’t listen to the different armchair historians that cite the early Church or the medieval Church to promote an agenda that is foreign to my experience of Scripture and tradition. I listen to the Church and as Pope John XXIII said the Church used to use harsh methods at times but they don’t bear good fruit. The Church needs to more closely follow the way of Christ and His ‘medicine of mercy’”

I agree with you that we should never treat armchair historians as a source of authority. There is entirely too much of that going around these days. I do, however, find it troubling that you suggest the Early Church and Church of the Middle Ages is not worth listening to because it doesn’t follow the way of Christ and His ‘medicine of mercy’, and feels foreign to your personal experience of Scripture and Tradition. If you discount the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the Councils of the Church, the writings of the Saints, etc then how can you know your personal interpretation of scriptures and tradition is complete or correct? It is dangerous (and some would argue heresy in a formal sense of the word) to pit the the Church against itself. The Church of today is no more or less Catholic than the Early Church or the Church of the Middle Ages. It’s dangerous to think that we are somehow better or that the Church was getting Scriptures wrong if it spoke of God’s justice in equal measure to His love, whereas in today’s Church you hear nothing but love and mercy. You rarely ever hear about hell or punishment or consequence. This has warped the faith of countless.