The proof of the existence of Jesus

[colliric]

I’m sure you know the Josephus quotes concerning Jesus are suspect. I’m a 21st century Jew and I believe Jesus existed. Feel free to cite me in future posts.

Yes the major reference of the two was certainly likely “Edited” during the middle ages when 1st century Jewish documents with possible Jesus references came under scrutiny from short sighted Christians in the 15th century(Sadly yes it was the pope of the time, Paul the 4th in a Papal Bull, Cum nimis absurdum) who did not realize their future value in simply proving he existed and ruled on their “anti-christianity” tone.

Another of these documents is the Jewish Talmud, refering to man called Yeshu executed on the Passover before Sabbath. His story bears remarkable similarity to the christian Jesus, although it is arguably told from a Jewish perspective written perhaps to undermine the emerging Christian sect and the gospel account. Yeshu, is, probably because of this particular document, the Hebrew for name Jesus and has been since the 12th century. makes sense to me because it is pronounced Je-shu, meaning it was probably phonetically transfered into the Greek and Latin form of Jesu.

Luckily we have earlier copies of that than the Middle Ages.

 

[kellie]

An atheist living in a Muslim country would have no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) and so he would also have little reason to doubt the existence of Jesus (pbuh).

By comparison, an atheist brought up in the environment of a “Judeo-Christian” Western society would not even consider the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) when he doubts or disputes the existence of Jesus (pbuh).

Why??

Why would an atheist in a Muslim country have no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammed?

Why would this atheist find it more plausible to believe in Muhammed, than if he was raised in America?

 

[Montalban]

Well OK then, if you say so.

Allow me to remind you of this the next time you quote a hadith or relate a story about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

One can quote a work of fiction, without having to believe in it.

 

[hamba2han]

Why??

Why would an atheist in a Muslim country have no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammed?

Why would this atheist find it more plausible to believe in Muhammed, than if he was raised in America?

As I have explained in my earlier post, an atheist in a Muslim country would have absolutely no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) because the Qur’an is truly the indisputable proof that he existed since all of it’s contents came from his lips only.

Since the Qur’an was revealed to him over a period of 23 years, we have the testimony of literally hundreds if not thousands of people to back this up.

On the other hand, an atheist who has been brought up in the typical “Judeo-Christian” socio-cultural envronment that exists in America, would not at all be familiar with what the Qur’an is and so the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) would not even enter his consideration if he questions or doubts the existence of Jesus (pbuh).

 

[Montalban]

As I have explained in my earlier post, an atheist in a Muslim country would have absolutely no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) because the Qur’an is truly the indisputable proof that he existed since all of it’s contents came from his lips only.

As you repeat an atheist would have to rely on the circular logic you believe is conclusive proof

I think you don’t understand the concept of circular logic

 

[hamba2han]

As you repeat an atheist would have to rely on the circular logic you believe is conclusive proof

I think you don’t understand the concept of circular logic

The Qur’an is by no means the only proof of his existence.

There is the Prophet’s Mosque in Madinah within which lies his grave.

Apart from this, there are the various treaties that he had entered into which bears his seal and which of course also bears the seals of both the friends and foes who he made the treaties with.

Are there any more proofs of his existence that you require?

 

[Montalban]

The Qur’an is by no means the only proof of his existence.

There is the Prophet’s Mosque in Madinah within which lies his grave.

Apart from this, there are the various treaties that he had entered into which bears his seal and which of course also bears the seals of both the friends and foes who he made the treaties with.

Are there any more proofs of his existence that you require?

I should point out firstly that I don’t doubt that he existed. So much evil must have come from someone.

However I am keen to point out that you continue to use the wrong argument; circular logic.

I accept that you believe there are other proofs, but your argument *was *that the Koran would convince atheists about Jesus (not Muhammed); this was based on circular reasoning - that the Koran says so, therefore it’s true, because the Koran says so.

You now seem you want to change your argument.

 

[hamba2han]

Like I said, the verses of the Qur’an were revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) over a period of 23 years and witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people throughout this period and therefore it is the indisputable proof that he existed.

If anyone wishes to dispute this, then they really do need to explain how exactly did the Qur’an come into being if not from the lips of Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[kellie]

As I have explained in my earlier post, an atheist in a Muslim country would have absolutely no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) because the Qur’an is truly the indisputable proof that he existed since all of it’s contents came from his lips only.

Since the Qur’an was revealed to him over a period of 23 years, we have the testimony of literally hundreds if not thousands of people to back this up.

On the other hand, an atheist who has been brought up in the typical “Judeo-Christian” socio-cultural envronment that exists in America, would not at all be familiar with what the Qur’an is and so the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) would not even enter his consideration if he questions or doubts the existence of Jesus (pbuh).

I am still so way lost that I might give up on this thread.

If an atheist reads the Koran, that may prove Mohammed existed, if the atheist decides to believe the author is he who he says he is, but how does the Koran make the atheist believe that it’s contents are true, hence, making the atheist believe Jesus existed ??

 

[hamba2han]

I am still so way lost that I might give up on this thread.

If an atheist reads the Koran, that may prove Mohammed existed, if the atheist decides to believe the author is he who he says he is, but how does the Koran make the atheist believe that it’s contents are true, hence, making the atheist believe Jesus existed ??

When did I allude that the atheist in a Muslim country has to believe in the truth of the Qur’an in order to believe in the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?

I do indeed intend to bring up the matter of the authenticity and truth of the Qur’an in another thread later on, God-willing, but not in this thread and so, you are jumping ahead of me here.

All I am saying at this point is that since an atheist living in a Muslim country has no reason at all to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh), then for what reason would he or she have to doubt the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?

Since he believes in the existence of Muhammad (pbuh), then it makes no difference whatsoever to his atheist beliefs if he also believes in the existence of Jesus (pbuh) as well, does it?

I am not saying that he has to believe it, but the point is – for what reason should an atheist in a Muslim country doubt or dipute the existence of Jesus (pbuh) if he already believes in the existence of Muhammad (pbuh)?

As I mentioned in a prior post, an atheist views on the existence of Jesus (pbuh) would be greatly influenced by the socio-cultural environment that he is living in.

This issue is therefore about mind-set and for an atheist living in a Muslim country, the question of whether or not Jesus (pbuh) existed is really not a big deal at all when compared to his counterpart who lives in a Western society and whose thought processes and attitude have been shaped and heavily influenced by “Judeo-Christian” teachings.

 

[George_Waters]

hamba2han,

Please clarify for me how Muslims can honor Mary and Jesus, unquestionably both Jews, while refering to all Jews as apes and pigs and wishing to exterminate their people?

If Muslim believe in Jesus more than any other group why do they ignore His apostles completely, ignore His commands and murder His people?

Ah, the ever popular totally fabricated, unsupported by the facts line that the Bible was altered right?

Ten of His apostles went to their deaths claiming Jesus was God, but you chose to ignore that major historical fact. The facts just don’t fit your notions so you reject them.

So please, explain to us using the much vaulted Muslim logic this major contradiction perpetruated by Islam? Or ignore this post thinking I am just another damned Christian so we can all see you can’t answer the most simple questions about Islam and see it for the fabrication that it is.

 

[Angelos]

All I am saying at this point is that since an atheist living in a Muslim country has no reason at all to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh), then for what reason would he or she have to doubt the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?

Since he believes in the existence of Muhammad (pbuh), then it makes no difference whatsoever to his atheist beliefs if he also believes in the existence of Jesus (pbuh) as well, does it?

I am not saying that he has to believe it, but the point is – for what reason should an atheist in a Muslim country doubt or dipute the existence of Jesus (pbuh) if he already believes in the existence of Muhammad (pbuh)?

You think and ask many questions from a totally Islamic perspective, then you speculate what atheists living in Islamic environment would probably say about Jesus’ historic existence.

Answer to your question (why would an atheist doubt Jesus’ existence if he believed that Mohammed existed?):

Because Mohammed & Jesus were different people who lived in different periods & places! No one believes that Jesus existed because he believes in the writings of a person that lived & wrote about Jesus six hundred years later! Do not forget: Mohammed was no authorized historian as not being a contemporary of Jesus or His disciples. I am pretty sure that no atheist in a Muslim country would resort to the Koran to believe that Jesus existed because such an act would in the first place require the atheist believed in the Koran! If an atheist started to believe that whatever written in the Koran is both theologically & historically true, we would no more call that person an atheist, but a Muslim!

If atheists in Muslim countries do confirm Jesus’ existence only because they believe that Mohammed lived, they are false atheists that need to study history & logic before referring to Koran as a reliable historic source!

Peace,
ANgelos N.

 

[Booklover]

Islam is totally NOT dependant on Judaism and Christianity because Muslims rely only on the ‘notes’ which were given to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by the same ‘teacher’ who taught Moses and Jesus (pbut).

What proof do you have that it’s the same teacher? How do you know that it was Gabriel who “appeared” to Muhammad, if anybody did, which I do not believe, unless it was Satan? Muhammad could have made the whole thing up!

Since these notes of Muhammad (pbuh) have remained 100% pure, why then should Muslims be dependant on the earlier notes of Moses and Jesus (pbut) which we believe have been corrupted by unscrupulous scribes and others who had their own agenda when they altered these notes?

If those notes as you called them were 100% pure, that still does not mean that they are true! You keep claiming that Islam does not have to rely on previous revelations, but you just stated that those same scriptures are corrupted! You have to say that because Muhammad brought a conflicting “message”. What if Muhammad had an agenda to proclaim himself not only a prophet, but created a false God, his alter ego, to keep Arabs under his power and control. Those so-called “revelations” that Muhammad “received” are really the literal words of Muhammad and not “Allah”!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

=George Waters;1885960hamba2han,

Please clarify for me how Muslims can honor Mary and Jesus, unquestionably both Jews, while refering to all Jews as apes and pigs and wishing to exterminate their people?

If Muslim believe in Jesus more than any other group why do they ignore His apostles completely, ignore His commands and murder His people?

Ah, the ever popular totally fabricated, unsupported by the facts line that the Bible was altered right?

Ten of His apostles went to their deaths claiming Jesus was God, but you chose to ignore that major historical fact. The facts just don’t fit your notions so you reject them.

So please, explain to us using the much vaulted Muslim logic this major contradiction perpetruated by Islam? Or ignore this post thinking I am just another damned Christian so we can all see **you can’t answer the most simple questions about Islam and see it for the fabrication that it is./**quote]

Great post, George!

Vickie

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han,

Please clarify for me how Muslims can honor Mary and Jesus, unquestionably both Jews, while refering to all Jews as apes and pigs and wishing to exterminate their people?

If Muslim believe in Jesus more than any other group why do they ignore His apostles completely, ignore His commands and murder His people?

Ah, the ever popular totally fabricated, unsupported by the facts line that the Bible was altered right?

Ten of His apostles went to their deaths claiming Jesus was God, but you chose to ignore that major historical fact. The facts just don’t fit your notions so you reject them.

So please, explain to us using the much vaulted Muslim logic this major contradiction perpetruated by Islam? Or ignore this post thinking I am just another damned Christian so we can all see you can’t answer the most simple questions about Islam and see it for the fabrication that it is.

This is off-topic but I think that one of the best answers to any claim of Muslim injustice against Jews and Christians is to refer to the time when Caliph Umar (ra) captured Jerusalem in 638 CE.

At that time, there were no Jews living in Jerusalem because they had all been driven out by the Romans and later kept out by the Christians.

When Caliph Umar took the city from the Romans, he allowed the Christian population to stay and freely practice their religion and later on over the objections of the Christians, he rescinded the Roman decree made centuries before of banishing the Jews from entering Jerusalem.

By pledging to protect the freedom of religious practice for both Christians and Jews and to ensure the preservation of their places of worship, Caliph Umar ibn Khattab (ra) clearly showed that he valued the observance of shari`ah requirement of just treatment of the People of the Book very highly indeed.

The Covenant of Umar was, in effect, the first international guarantee of the protection of religious freedom.

Centuries later, after the re-conquest of Jerusalem by Salahuddin in the time of the Crusades, Jews were again permitted by Muslims to come back and live in the city. The Crusaders during their 90-year rule (1099 - 1187) had banned both Jews and Muslims from that city.

This accusation that Islam permits injustice to be done to Jews and Christians is therefore totally baseless.

 

[Valke2]

Umar also ordered the expulsion of the Christian and Jewish communities of Najran and Khaybar and forbade non-Muslims to reside in the Hijaz for longer than three days. (G. Levi DellaVida and M. Bonner, Encyclopedia of Islam, and Madelung, The Succession to Muhammad, p. 74)

 

[hamba2han]

What proof do you have that it’s the same teacher? How do you know that it was Gabriel who “appeared” to Muhammad, if anybody did, which I do not believe, unless it was Satan? Muhammad could have made the whole thing up!

If those notes as you called them were 100% pure, that still does not mean that they are true! You keep claiming that Islam does not have to rely on previous revelations, but you just stated that those same scriptures are corrupted! You have to say that because Muhammad brought a conflicting “message”. What if Muhammad had an agenda to proclaim himself not only a prophet, but created a false God, his alter ego, to keep Arabs under his power and control. Those so-called “revelations” that Muhammad “received” are really the literal words of Muhammad and not “Allah”!

Vickie

This is also not directly related to the subject of this thread but as I have mentioned in an earlier post, I intend to open another thread sometime soon, God-willing, in which I hope to address the kind of questions that you have asked.

 

[George_Waters]

This is off-topic but I think that one of the best answers to any claim of Muslim injustice against Jews and Christians is to refer to the time when Caliph Umar (ra) captured Jerusalem in 638 CE.

At that time, there were no Jews living in Jerusalem because they had all been driven out by the Romans and later kept out by the Christians.

When Caliph Umar took the city from the Romans, he allowed the Christian population to stay and freely practice their religion and later on over the objections of the Christians, he rescinded the Roman decree made centuries before of banishing the Jews from entering Jerusalem.

By pledging to protect the freedom of religious practice for both Christians and Jews and to ensure the preservation of their places of worship, Caliph Umar ibn Khattab (ra) clearly showed that he valued the observance of shari`ah requirement of just treatment of the People of the Book very highly indeed.

The Covenant of Umar was, in effect, the first international guarantee of the protection of religious freedom.

Centuries later, after the re-conquest of Jerusalem by Salahuddin in the time of the Crusades, Jews were again permitted by Muslims to come back and live in the city. The Crusaders during their 90-year rule (1099 - 1187) had banned both Jews and Muslims from that city.

This accusation that Islam permits injustice to be done to Jews and Christians is therefore totally baseless.

I apologize if you feel this is off topic, however you claim Muslims honor Mary and Jesus; Jewish by your own admission, but the actions of many Muslims demonstrate quite the contrary.

In responding to my questions, for you completely failed to answer them in any way, shape or form, you stated the benevolence of one Muslim several hundred years ago. I have noticed the trend of Muslim apologist to rely on a perceived good Muslim juxtapositioned against a bad Christians (Many times these men are labeled Christian sole on virtue of being a Westerner.) from centuries ago to “prove” points.

As far as being “totally baseless”, what about Muslims this century? How about Shaikh Ahmad Yassin, Khalid Mish`al and Ramadan Shalah? They have openly encouraged and endorsed suicide bombing attacks against Jews, and indicated that they have the capacity to stop these murders from happening. Are these men not Muslims? Are they not following the Quran? Are they not openly calling for the murder of Jews? Are they honoring Mary and Jesus? Or have they opportunistically exploited the lack of authority in Islam to support their own private agendas? And are you spending a lot of time whitewashing Islam to hide the flaws, fallacies and lies?

If you wish to honor Mary and Jesus live by His commands, ask our Heavenly Mother Mary to ask God for His blessings upon you, don’t claim Islam honors them based on unsupported stories and contrary to actions of Muslims throughout history.

 

[kellie]

When did I allude that the atheist in a Muslim country has to believe in the truth of the Qur’an in order to believe in the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?

I do indeed intend to bring up the matter of the authenticity and truth of the Qur’an in another thread later on, God-willing, but not in this thread and so, you are jumping ahead of me here.

All I am saying at this point is that since an atheist living in a Muslim country has no reason at all to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh), then for what reason would he or she have to doubt the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?

Since he believes in the existence of Muhammad (pbuh), then it makes no difference whatsoever to his atheist beliefs if he also believes in the existence of Jesus (pbuh) as well, does it?

I am not saying that he has to believe it, but the point is – for what reason should an atheist in a Muslim country doubt or dipute the existence of Jesus (pbuh) if he already believes in the existence of Muhammad (pbuh)?

As I mentioned in a prior post, an atheist views on the existence of Jesus (pbuh) would be greatly influenced by the socio-cultural environment that he is living in.

This issue is therefore about mind-set and for an atheist living in a Muslim country, the question of whether or not Jesus (pbuh) existed is really not a big deal at all when compared to his counterpart who lives in a Western society and whose thought processes and attitude have been shaped and heavily influenced by “Judeo-Christian” teachings.

So if I read “Alice in Wonderland”, and do some research on the author Lewis Carroll, and find out when he lived and where he lived, and acknowledge that he did exist, does that mean I have to believe Tigger existed too??

All I am saying is, why do you say that an atheist MUST acknowledge the existence of Jesus, just because Mohammed wrote about Him?? Acknowledging that this atheist does believe Mohammed existed.

 

[Montalban]

Like I said, the verses of the Qur’an were revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) over a period of 23 years and witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people throughout this period and therefore it is the indisputable proof that he existed.

If anyone wishes to dispute this, then they really do need to explain how exactly did the Qur’an come into being if not from the lips of Muhammad (pbuh).

Which argument do you wish to have? The one about Jesus, or Muhammad?